Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - August 2001Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer. The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 13:05:19 +0900 From: Hiroshi Hasebe <hasebe _at_ jim.seikei.ac.jp> Subject: [HG] drone capo Hello. Some days ago, Mr. David Smith mentioned about "drone capo", which can play in a different keys. Could anyone tell me about this kit a little bit more? How do you apply it to HG? Where? and What is it? This is what I always wanted and I appreciate if anyone tell me the details about it. Thank you very much in advance. Hiroshi Hasebe HASEBE, Hiroshi Administrative Staff Center for Asian and Pacific Studies Seikei University 3-3-1, Kichijoji-kitamachi, Musashino-shi Tokyo 180-8633, Japan http://www.seikei.ac.jp/university/caps/index.html =================================== Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:34:20 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Queations about language and players I hope that I am not the only one to write back. I am so much not an expert. A word that is common is Zanfona. There are two major languages in Spain. This is my understanding. Mexico? I thought of how it is said that Jules Deveaux traveled there to play, once; I don't know the details. (He's a famous French player who passed on in the 1980s.) Hope that that helps get your answers started. thanks for reading my letter. jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:26:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Queations about language and players Diana - Good to see you here! > Question #1 Can someone tell me how to say hurdy gurdy in > spanish-latin american spanish--in a way that a person might > understand what I'm talking about? There are several Spanish names, mostly variants on the word "zanfona" or "zanfońa". Just as in English we have to explain that it's not the barrel organ, you may need to explain that it's not a bagpipe. The Spanish word for bagpipe is "zanpońa", at least in some regions. "Gaita" is also "bagpipes", and is fortunately instrument-specific. Historically the terms for the two instruments have been pretty much intermixed, such that if you come across it in the literature, you have to work it out from the context which one is meant: "Bebita jugó la zanfońa" could mean either, > Question#2 Are there hurdy gurdy players in (or from) Mexico? Not that I know of - you may be the first!! Actually, you should ask Gilles Chabenat when he is here for the Over the Water Festival in September - he was in Mexico for some concerts on his recent North American tour. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Queations about language and players I forgot to mention - there's a book in Spanish on the hurdy-gurdy: La Zanfona, by Faustino Santalices In Spanish, with some illustrations. The text gives the history of the instrument in Spain, particularly in Galicia, and in the rest of Europe as well. All the figures show a 5 stringed instrument with 3 chanters and 2 drones, with a guitar-shaped body and a peghead carved with a scroll like a violin. Several tunings are shown, with fingering patterns. We have a copy in our library if you would like to have a look at it. Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html "Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae." = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:25:08 -0700 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Questions about language and players Just to confuse matters a little further, in South America zanfońa is the name given to a large set of Andean pan pipes. Juan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:26:29 -0500 From: Cathy Moore <cathy _at_ proseprovider.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Questions about language and players Diana, According to my _Musical Instruments_ dictionary by Sibyl Marcuse, "zanfońa" refers to a Galician h-g, while "viola de rueda" is simply listed as a Spanish term for hurdy-gurdy. Online, I've seen "zanfona" (usually without the tilde) only in pages about Galician music, in the Spanish & Galician languages. "Viola de rueda" shows up less but seems to be used to refer to hurdy-gurdies used in ensembles for música antigua. "Zanfońa" might create some confusion because it sounds a lot like "zampońa," which refers to a Spanish bagpipe and a Mexican musical bow. I just say that I play "viola de rueda" & follow that with a description of the strings, wheel, buzzing, etc. It would be interesting to look at the French period of Mexican history to see if any hurdy-gurdies appear. Cathy = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] drone capo Hiroshi said: > Some days ago, Mr. David Smith mentioned about > "drone capo", which can play in a different keys. > Could anyone tell me about this kit a little bit more? > How do you apply it to HG? Where? and What is it? Drone capos for HG come in quite a few flavors, just like the HG itself. ;-) The most typical is the French style "drapeau" ("flag"), which is usually just used for the trompette string. It consists of two opposing flag-shaped pieces of wood which look similar to large tangents. They fit in two holes in the soundboard or on a little piece of wood in just the right spot that when they are closed, ie pushed together, they shorten the trompette, raising it a whole tone. This feature was introduced in the baroque era, so that tunes in D and D minor could be played: the C trompette could be raised easily to D. Some players use a padded clothespin or leather-lined alligator clip for the same purpose. The advantage is that it can be placed anywhere on the string, to change the pitch to E, or F, or G... I haven't tried this, but I would think that it would be somewhat inefficient at damping the string completely, so the tone might not be as good. Has anyone tried this? I saw it illustrated in Destrem and Heidemann. If you don't have this book, we cannot recommend it highly enough. One builder, Philippe Mousnier, uses a series of flip-up nuts and levers to shorten the string. You can see pictures of this in the "Territoirs illimitée" book. We played some of these instruments at St. Chartier a few years ago. Some people really like his instruments, but I felt that the lever system of shortening the drones wasn't really integrated into the instrument design. Jean-Luc Bleton has a unique system of capoing the trompette. The trompette nut is metal, and slides on a round bar mounted along the side of the vielle. To retune the trompette, the capo is slid to the left or right. To adjust the sensitivity, the end which holds the string is moved toward or away from the keybox. As far as I know, he's only made one of these, for Pierre Imbert, who will be teaching this year at the OTW festival in September. Chris Eaton uses a lever-type system. I have pictures of Cliff Stapleton's vielle which has this feature, but I don't remember the details. It's like the drapeau in that it's permanently mounted, giving a whole-step difference in pitch. I remember thinking that it was similar to the Loveland tuning levers used for folk harps, which I think could be used in the same situation. Any other capo systems? Oh, one more, which isn't strictly a capo, but bears mentioning. Ed Foote in Nashville plays HG in a unique style. He has an unusually long thumb, which he reaches over the back of the keybox and uses to play a slide harmony on his mouche string while playing the tune with his fingers. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Questions about language and players > Just to confuse matters a little further, in South America zanfońa is the > name given to a large set of Andean pan pipes. Oh, my, that is going to make things confusing... The historians theorize that "zanfońa" was derived from "sinfonie", from which we get "symphony". We now think of a symphony as a large collection of instruments and their attendant players, but in the Middle Ages it had more of a meaning of an instrument which makes a lot of sounds or a great volume of sound - it depended on the context. I suppose that the panpipes could also fill either or both of these descriptions. So I think Cathy's suggestion of "viola de rueda" is going to be much safer. ;-) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:47:41 -0700 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: [HG] Queations about language and players Greetings/Saludos My name is Diana O'Neill and I began playing for the first time at the OTW festival last year. This was preceded by hanging around the group at the Seattle Folklife Festival for several years. I am fortunate to have not one, but two, astonishing and most singular teachers (which is not noticeable in my playing due to my practice habits). Question #1 Can someone tell me how to say hurdy gurdy in spanish-latin american spanish--in a way that a person might understand what I'm talking about? Question#2 Are there hurdy gurdy players in (or from) Mexico? Thanks and Gracias, Diana = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:51:00 -0700 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: [HG] Thanks for all the response! yOUR RESPONSES WERE VERY HELPFUL REGARDING THE LANGUAGE QUESTIONS--NOW i AM EXCITED TO HEAR FROM GILLES ABOUT where the concerts were, how they were received and if he met any players! Thank you all , Diana = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:17:53 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Fw: Your post to the HG list Welcome to the list, Al. You wrote: > > This past June, I had the opportunity to purchase one from an English = > > maker and am just getting acquainted. Who made your HG? > > I have a question, which for all I know, may have been asked before: = > > Can a hurdy-gurdy be strung with carbon fiber strings? > > > > On the lute list, there are purists who insist on gut only, some who = > > will tolerate nylgut, and others, like me, who don't notice much = > > degradation in tone, but a marked improvement in lifestyle attained by = > > spending less time in tuning. This has been discussed before somewhat, but the archivist (me) hasn't gotten the archives posted yet. In any case, enough people have joined since then that we may get some new opinions. ;-) We used to be purveyors of lute strings, and rejoiced at the advent of Nylgut and carbon fiber strings. We hoped that they would greatly improve tuning for hurdy-gurdies. We tried them on our personal instruments, and were disappointed. To our ears, the tone is not as good as with gut strings, and the "feeling" wasn't right on the chanter strings: I believe that while the strings are under the same tension, the manmade strings are more pliable. Some people report very good results with the Nylgut strings. In particular, we had one customer who was disappointed when we stopped carrying them, because he preferred them to gut on the upper d" string on his Bourbonnais-tuned vielle. This string tends to break a lot, and he found the Nylgut to be much more durable. > > A second, related question. If carbon fiber strings will work, and = > > since they seem to be more durable, would that obviate the need to apply = > > cotton fibers to the strings? Unfortunately not. They are more durable, but not to constant abrasion - the wheel will still wear through the string in short order. In any case, the cotton on the strings serves two functions: to protect the string, and to smooth out and regulate the tone. (On the wound strings, the cotton also protects the wheel from abrasion by the string.) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: [HG] Musicmaker Hurdy Gurdy Photos Hello all, Here is a link to photos of the modifications which I have made to my Musicmaker's Hurdy Gurdy Kit. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the instrument, but here is the knowledge I have gained by fiddling with instrument for the past 6 years. I think I have succeeded in improving the sound from its somewhat feeble sound to a stable and rather nice sounding instrument and with the addition of trompette and dog has started me on the road to mastering (ha!) the challenging (but very expressive and fun)rhythmic accompaniment. The photos should more easily explain some of the changes I have made such as drone capos, chanter hitches, sympathetic strings, addition of trompette and dog, changes to knob, crank and shaft. In the future I hope to add a drawing of the braces, soundpost and shaft details which were added. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=380161&a=13585578 I believe that a picture is worth 1000 words, but if you still have questions, please feel free to contact me. David Smith Dearborn, Michigan, USA dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 06:57:41 -0700 From: Tim O'Neil <bwana _at_ noteboard.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Musicmaker Hurdy Gurdy Photos Nice photos David, and very helpful. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 11:03:28 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Musicmaker Hurdy Gurdy Photos Awesome photos, David. Nice. reference given here again: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=380161&a=13585578 jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:50:56 +0100 From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk> Subject: Re: [HG] drone capo On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 01:32:30PM -0700, Alden Hackmann wrote: > Chris Eaton uses a lever-type system. I have pictures of Cliff > Stapleton's vielle which has this feature, but I don't remember the > details. There's a picture of a trompette capo like this on my web page which might be of interest. http://www.biff.org.uk/dave/pics/gurdy/ Dave = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:26:24 +0100 From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com Subject: RE: [HG] drone capo Looks like a typically nice piece of Chris Eaton Engineering. On my guitar shape model, similar to Cliffs and so probably done the same way, the system is mounted on the side of the peg box and so operates at 90 degrees. It works very well. Peter Hughes Cognition and perception lab BTexaCT e-mail peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com 01473 642982 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:45:23 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] Indiana HG anyone? Hello, I just moved from Utah to Indiana (Bloomington) and was wondering if anyone on the list is out my way. It's been a long time in the deserts of Utah with nary a soul around me playing HG and no humidity to keep my HG happy. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:40:33 -0400 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Indiana HG anyone? Arle: Fred Myer is on this list and he's in Indiana. There are several of us in Michigan, and we'll be getting together in Midland later this month at a music festival there. And humidity we've got. judith Judith Lindenau, CAE, RCE Traverse Area Association of Realtors http://www.taar.com icq 6445710 MAILTO:judith _at_ taar.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:08:29 +0200 From: Wenceslao Martínez Calonge <wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt> Subject: [HG] Four Galician tunes for "sanfona"/"zanfona" Hallo everybody: I have just added four Galician tunes for sanfona in the MIDI format from the "Cancioneiro Musical de Galicia" by Castro Sampedro y Folgar. Two cantigas from Graba (Ourense) http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc/midis/graba1.mid http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc/midis/graba2.mid Two cantigas from Zalín (Pontevedra) http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc/midis/zalin1.mid http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc/midis/zalin2.mid Please note that the drones are not indicated on the original transcriptions and the use of rythmic drones is not so widely accepted on Galician instruments. I would dare to say that "viola de rueda" is not very usual in Spanish. Nowadays, most people use "zanfona". Sometimes you will happen to find "zanfońa" (yes, so similar-sounding to the "zampońa" pipes) and other words. In Portuguese most people use "sanfona". In Catalonian you may hear the French-borrowed "viola de roda". You can visit this page to see some photographs from the past AIZ courses. http://www.zanfona.com Best regards = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 17:08:37 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] two Hungarian notations posted Hi, for those who are interested (and for those to whom I promised this sort of thing to many moons ago and failed to deliver), I have just posted two PDFs containing some Hungarian tekerő songs in standard notation. Unfortunately my source had no indication of the dog rhythms, but the notes are there. The first PDF is at: ftp://ftp.ttt.org/tekero/aristomba.pdf This contains two variations of a single tune. The second PDF is at: ftp://ftp.ttt.org/tekero/two_tunes.pdf It contains two separate tunes. These are all short excerpts that I got from a book of Hungarian zither tunes which noted these tunes as being really HG tunes adapted for zither (hence the lack of dog information). I will add some more as I have the time to create the PDFs. Anyone can download these. The folksongs are in the public domain and I had to correct the notation in a few instances anyway, so these are not copies of copyrighted material, so feel free to do whatever you want with them. Regards, Arle Lommel = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:09:46 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Indiana HG anyone? ...may be a far-off thought, but I was thinking of the famous Robert Green. He wrote the book and has the CD. I had seemed to think he was by there. jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 06:34:31 +0100 From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: [HG] Workshop Just a reminder about the GC Gurdy workshop which I am organising in Cambridgeshire on 1st/2nd Sept. Tuition will be given by Cliff Stapleton, and the whole weekend costs just Ł25, excluding accommodation, (I have a list of B & Bs). We really need a few more people to sign up for this to make it viable. If you have friends who play G pipes, please tell them about the workshop which Mike York will be running on the same weekend, same venue, same price - again, we really need some more takers for this event. Thanks Ruth = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:42:58 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Thank you for info re "hurdy gurdy " in Spanish Just out of curiosity, is zanfona/sanfona (and the related zampońa and zampogna) derived from Latin symphonia (and thence from Greek syn phonia (lit. 'with sound', meaning sounds in unison)) and thus just a simple cognate with the medieval symphony HGs, which is what it looks like? -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 18:45:51 -0500 From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com> Subject: [HG] new to list Hi, I have just made the move from Vancouver to Kingston, On. and would love to know if there are any players near by who also love French music. I am not yet a hurdy-gurdy player, I am a singer, penny-whistle and double bass player and I am waiting to buy a friend's D/G lute-back instrument. She is having a new one made, so we are waiting for the big trade-off when she sends her old one to me from England (hopefully some time this year). I am wondering, if it is so much more common for North-Americans to play the C/G instruments, will I find it frustrating to have a different tuning, say at an event like the Over-the-Water festival? I know that at the events in England, there seemed to be several players of each sort of tuning. What about the possibilities of re-stringing it to a C/G? Is that structurally possible? I am looking forward to hearing from anyone on the list who might help me decide if I am making the right decision. It is a beautiful instrument, and the price is right. Thanks Alison. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:48:07 -0700 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: [HG] Thank you for info re "hurdy gurdy " in Spanish Thank you for the information that zanfona is most commonly used in Spanish and sanfona in Portuguese! Diana O'Neill Seattle, Washington = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:26:37 -0400 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Indiana HG anyone? At 03:45 PM 8/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, > >I just moved from Utah to Indiana (Bloomington) and was wondering if anyone >on the list is out my way. It's been a long time in the deserts of Utah with >nary a soul around me playing HG and no humidity to keep my HG happy. > >-Arle Be careful what you ask for, Arle! Too much of a good thing can spoil your fun, too! We've had such high humidity here in Maine that my hurdy-gurdies have mis-behaved for much of the summer so far. I posted to this list regarding this problem; Helmut Gotschy suggested moving to the desert... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies 7 Grove Street Camden, Maine 04843 phone/fax: 207-236-9576 email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle -------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:32:09 -0400 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Workshop Hi Ruth- I sympathize with your situation. We're trying to organize a workshop with RT Taylor as the instructor here in New England, and it's tough trying to get enough people to come. But we're so few and far between here, my "local" mailing list of players cover a four hour driving radius of Boston. Anyone here on the list interested in working with RT in October? No final date yet, but it will be about 1 month after OTW, so it'll be a great chance to come back and review some things after taking some time at home. We won't be sticking exclusively with OTW material, of course! Please let me know if you want me to add you to my email notification list of New England events, and I'll be happy to include you! ~ Matt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:32:08 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Workshop I guess I had no idea of anything. Please do so: James Christian Winters 177 Stillwater Avenue, Dome Orono, ME 04473 USA (207) 866-7777 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:48:44 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Hello, Since there is not going on much in the moment, I dare to announce something quite off topic: I just surfed in the net and saw that one of my favorite bands is touring not just in europe, where they are quite well known and musicans who see them announced know what to expect, but also touring north america, and so I want to tell you out there over the water, to watch out for "Fanfare Ciocarlia" the fastest an most extraordinary brass band I've ever seen - they are not what you expect from a brass band and they are all traditional musicans, no jazz nor classical education, no printed nor written arrangements, but real cracks in their style. You can find their tour data at: http://www.asphalt-tango.de/welcome.htm . Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:45:35 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia This serpent, opps, trombone guy says, "thanks, cool site." So no slide anywhere? reference: http://www.asphalt-tango.de/welcome.htm comments: May be it sounds vaguely like Klezmer? (which would be fun) I don't know the name of the rounded, rotary-valve baritone. Am I correct that there is absolutly no hurdy gurdy or tekero in any of Romanian, Bulgarian, or Gypsy music? ........... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:01:05 +0000 From: C R Wohlmut <turcolyn _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia All, I second the sentiments of our friend Simon. I got one of Fanfare Ciocarlia's CD's and love it! Unfortunately for me, I've already missed the show in my area (didn't hear about it, drat!). I haven't seen them but they're awesome on record, and if their live show has 1/8th of the energy their recording has...wow. Colyn = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:06:41 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Upcoming festival: Over the Water Dear HG list, It's time for me to put in my annual plug for the Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Festival, held this year on September 18-23 at Fort Flaglercome A shuttle from the airport is available (see website for details) The Silent Auction A chance to meet the men made famous by the OTW Calendar For more information, please visit our website at www.overthewater.org, or email us either at this address (hurdy _at_ silverlink.net) or at info _at_ overthewater.org. Alden (this year's OTW President) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:06:44 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Over the Water Work-Study and Scholarship Have you decided that you really can't miss the festival, but it's looking a little expensive? There are several work-study positions available, involving some dishwashing and/or other kitchen and dining hall work. We also have a partial scholarship available. Although the festival flyer and websites list a deadline for application which has already passed, we have extended the deadline until August 22. For more information about work-study and the scholarship, please email us at hurdy _at_ silverlink.net, or cali _at_ overthewater.org. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:55:56 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Hello, zhenya wrote: (...) > Am I correct that there is absolutly no hurdy gurdy or tekero in any of > Romanian, Bulgarian, or Gypsy music? To decide this there are some problems to mention: in general there is no such thing as gypsy music, but there are many gypsies earning their living from doing traditional music. Traditional music can mean hurdy gurdy or tekerö so I am sure there are gypsies playing such instruments. Next trouble is the term "romanian" since Romania is a country which includes several large minorities like: hungarians, germans and austrians, moldavians. Speaking about romanian Romanians I have not heard about the hurdy gurdy being used in the traditional dance music, but there is a tradition in eastern Europe of using the HG as accompaniment for singing and as a beggars instrument. Looking into Marianne Bröckers book I found at least a photo of (picture number 131) and a name for this instrument mentioned: "lira" with the following source given for both: T.Alexandru, Instrumentele muzicale ale poporului Romin, Bucresti, 1956, 126. For Bulgaria I have no evidence at all whether there is or was a tradition or not, besides there is nothing mentioned in Marianne Bröckers book. Finaly, today there are musicans who play Romanian or Bulgarian music on the hurdy gurdy, so strictly speaking hurdy gurdy is sometimes used for this music, but as far as to my knowledge there is no evidence for HG in the local bulgarian music tradition. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:04:23 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Hi, Simon is quite correct that there is no "Gypsy music" per se. While I have no idea whether Roma (Gypsies) use the HG or not in most settings, nor whether it is used in Romania or Bulgaria, in Hungary Roma traditionally made almost no use of tekerő or duda (although I doubt one can make any hard and fast rules about it). There were social factors, in Hungary at least, that kept Roma from adopting the tekerő (and the duda, or bagpipe) in most traditional settings: in Hungary the tekerő and the duda were perceived as paraszt (peasant) instruments from the mid-1800s on. Roma self-identity in Hungary is very much defined in opposition to the paraszt identity (see Michael Stewart's excellent ethnography of a Hungarian Roma community, "The Time of the Gypsies", 1997, Westview Press, for more on this), and historically Roma seldom had anything to do with paraszt instruments. Although they had both been high-class instruments through the 1700s, the importance of duda and tekerő began to decline and they were replaced by other instruments in higher-class situations in the 1800s. They remained in existence, but were increasingly confined to more rustic and poorer situations. In fact Gypsy bands were the main replacement for duda and tekerő. As general prosperity rose the more expensive and modern Gypsy bands were hired in situations where tekerő and duda were formerly used (and the Gypsy bands did not use them to any degree). (Although I am not sure where they are, I have copies of a number of articles by Hungarian researchers written in the 1950s that address the general decline in use of duda in particular among Hungarians and which also address the ethnographic issues associated with its use by both Hungarians and Roma. If anyone is interested I will see if I can find them and post the references in a later message.) This trend continued until the 1960s when a revival in interest in "village music" stimulated renewed interest in both instruments among Hungarians in general and returned them to a respectable position. This happened just in time for the last of the traditional makers and players of each instrument to still have a direct connection with those seeking to revive their skills. (Remember that folk art and music were about the only modes of national expression allowed by the Soviets, although they attempted to control them, and that the folk revival in Eastern Europe began after the 1956 rebellions in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Many of those involved in the folk revival have since commented that they felt their work was very much political in its ramifications.) So I guess this is a long way of saying that Jim's statement is fairly accurate for Roma in Hungary prior to the 1960s (although I doubt the "absolutely" part of it -- I am sure that a Gypsy somewhere some time picked up a tekerő and at least played around with it). There is also the thorny problem of determining who can be considered Gypsy in any event. Is Gypsy a racial category (in which case, how do you handle people of mixed descent) or is it primarily a linguistic and cultural category (which is how Romany-speaking Roma define themselves, without regard to a racial notion)? Depending on how you define who is a Gypsy, you might find that more or less Gypsies play certain instruments. (I am not meaning to pick at small points here, but rather to point out that the issue is a complex one, a fact that anyone dealing with "Gypsy issues" has to face.) I have no idea of the status since the start of the folk revival and Simon is absolutely correct that, with present cross-fertilization between traditions, it is impossible to provide any hard and fast rules for who does and who doesn't use an instrument. It would be like saying that Irish music doesn't use HG. That may have been true at one time, but it certainly has found a home in Irish music now. Anyway, that's my two bits on the situation in Hungary. Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:28:23 +0200 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> Subject: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hello, I'm looking for some info: In whitch direction should the melody cam be ,or: is the right angle on the direction of the wheel or in the direction of the string holder ? What is the distance between cam and wheel? what is the exact height of a cam and how deep should the notches be in which the strings are? I now they are on the drawings but I want to understand why they are that way... Besides on old drawings they are not always in the same direction...should this be considered as a fauld or not ? I also read on this site that there exists a library of topics from the past ,is there anyone who can tell me how I can acces that? Marc = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:06:48 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Thanks for talking about it here! I find it very interesting. (I'm trying to buy a hurdy gurdy from eastern europe) I am under the impression that there are two tekeros: from Budapest region with western-style keys, and then north west of there by a river and with the different tuning and non-western keys, layed out differently. Then there is a Czech tekero that died out and so I heard it mentioned only twice, but never have seen any web site ever on that. And, certianly the Ukranian Lira which has been well reserched and occurs with western keys chromaticly in the two rows, or more traditionly as a single row in a sort of major or perhapes mixalydian scale (flatted seventh), but then a minor third in the higher octave. May be I am not quite right? ........ jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:15:08 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia zhenya wrote: > > Thanks for talking about it here! > I find it very interesting. (I'm trying to buy a hurdy gurdy from eastern > europe) > I am under the impression that there are two tekeros: > from Budapest region with western-style keys, > and then north west of there by a river and with the different tuning and > non-western keys, layed out differently. no hungarian tekerö that I know has something I would call western-style keys, since to me this would necessarily mean a vertical row of keys like on the french instruments from about 1700 on. With good french style keyboard the partition of those keys in the accidental (upper) row which are next to the diatonic semi tones (example : open string G diatonic keys B-C, keys in the accidental (upper) row: Bb-C# ) should be exactly where the partition between the diatonic keys is. On all hungarian keyboards I know this is not the case (also not on many french traditional instruments too). The size of the accidental keys equals the size of the diatonic keys so since there are less keys in the accidental row there are "tooth spaces" inbetween the accidental keys. A second difference to french style key slides boxes is the fact that one cannot see the back end of the key slides from the back (players-) side of the key slides box since there is (third) back board which hides the ends of the key slides. This setup of the keys and the key box is to my observations also typical for most of the historical austrian, bohemian and north italian instruments of the 18th century. Not so for many of the south german instruments. With many hungarian and also many other historical instruments one can find keyboards with less than twelve keys per octave, in a setting with open string in G the Ab is often missing, also the C#, sometimes the Eb or sometimes there are just the seven diatonic keys. > Then there is a Czech tekero that died out and so I heard it mentioned only > twice, but > never have seen any web site ever on that. I have seen such instruments, and there are some photgraphs and an essay on the tuning of these instruments (I do not agree with its content) in Marianne Bröckers book "Die Drehleier", Verlag für systematische Musikwissenschaft GmbH, Bonn - Bad Godesberg, 2. erweiterte Auflage, 1977 (first edition 1973). It seems that these bohemian instruments had no drones but the possibility of playing two different notes at the same time. I know one chech and one slovak maker, Otto Liska and Tibor Koblicek, but as far as I know they both make some kind of historically inspired "medieval" instruments which do not reflect these special type of old bohemian instuments. > And, certianly the Ukranian Lira which has been well reserched and occurs > with > western keys chromaticly in the two rows, > or more traditionly as a single row in a sort of major or perhapes > mixalydian scale (flatted seventh), but then a minor third in the higher > octave. There are some types of historical german instruments to mention, which are different from french instruments of the same period and the existence of histotrical and/or recent Bielorussian, Polish, Swedish, Finnish, Russian, Italian, Austrian instruments. Whether the diatonic row of keys on a hurdy-gurdy really is mixolydian depends on our knowledge whether the drone is tuned to the open string or to the third Key (forth note from the open string). If there is no such knowledge we cannot decide the case, and to my personal taste it is more likely that it is still major with the drone tuned to the third key (forth note). By the way, would you say that the french D-instrument is in mixolydian (we know that the drone is tuned to the open string and the seventh in the diatonic row is obviously minor) ? regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:28:55 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Hi. I think it depends on the song, because the instrument is chromatic. I was thinking that the instrument would be forced to be a mode if it only had only one row of keys and so then just one scale. You are totally right that mixolydian is played from the second tone, like an istrument built in C but played with the second tone, D, being the root-- except that it's chromatic so the C# is right there. But, I agree. The original thing here was an old Lira with only one row of keys. I guess the drone(s) would change everything. I think you are totally right on that. One source says that the Ukraine single-row always had or has a raised 4th. (Did it have a flatted 2nd or 6th?) Also, the Tekero I was trying to think of was one where the ends of the keys are just round ends, I think, not flat keys. I wasn't too sure. I thought of all this after your cool letter... <...they are all traditional musicans, no jazz nor classical education, no printed nor written arrangements...> So I thought of the folk gurdys. ............ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:11:26 +0100 From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk> Subject: Re: [HG] new to list No-one else has answered this, so I will give my opinion... On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 06:45:51PM -0500, Alison Gowan wrote: > I am wondering, if it is so much more common for North-Americans to > play the C/G instruments, will I find it frustrating to have a different > tuning, say at an event like the Over-the-Water festival? "It depends." Most tunes can be played on either tuning (particularly if your C/G gurdy has a capo on the trompette to change it from C to D). Some tunes are awkward, e.g. you have an octave shift to make them fit; and some tunes don't really work at all. > I know that at > the events in England, there seemed to be several players of each sort of > tuning. What about the possibilities of re-stringing it to a C/G? Is that > structurally possible? I believe that you can just restring in the other tuning. I'm planning to change my old C/G gurdy into D/G. I've heard that some instruments sound better in one tuning rather than the other. > I am looking forward to hearing from anyone on the list who might > help me decide if I am making the right decision. It is a beautiful > instrument, and the price is right. Hope this helps a little. Dave = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:08:16 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: [HG] about tunings: D/G against G/C Hello, Dave Holland wrote: Alison Gowan wrote: (...)will I find it frustrating to have a different > > tuning, say at an event like the Over-the-Water festival? > Most tunes can be played on either tuning (particularly if > your C/G gurdy has a capo on the trompette to change it from C to D). > Some tunes are awkward, e.g. you have an octave shift to make them fit; > and some tunes don't really work at all. (...) What about the possibilities of re-stringing it to a C/G? Is that > > structurally possible? > I believe that you can just restring in the other tuning. I'm planning > to change my old C/G gurdy into D/G. I've heard that some instruments > sound better in one tuning rather than the other. > > I am looking forward to hearing from anyone on the list who might > > help me decide if I am making the right decision. (...) What the right tuning is depends on what you want to do or play: 1)if you plan to play mainly music in the style of the Berry region in France, which is very common among hurdy-gurdy players, the tuning in D must be your first choice, this music simply sounds better in D/G . 2)One of the reasons for the choisse of D/G can also be that the balance of the volumes of the traditional D hurdy gurdy and the traditional low D pipes is better than the balance in G, where often the pipes are strongly dominating. 3) If you plan to play a lot in sessions look for the tunings in your neighbourhood, but this must not mean that you have to play the same tuning. It can be rater nice to have some "extra notes" other players do not have to enrichen your playing and the sound of the session or band. it is neccesary to care for the right drones ! so maybe when choosing an G/C instrument ad an D drone, to be able to play in G, or in D/G setting, it is usefull to have an G and an C drone and naturally a trompette with capo (on the six string hurdy gurdy there is always the possibility of having three different drones). 4) It also depends on your demands: it is harder to play a tune composed in D on a G/C instrument and vice versa (because you need a finger for the former open string) but it is possible and makes sense to play - within limits - in these "strange keys" on the HG: D-minor on a G instrument is just the same scale as G-dorian, D-dorian equals C-major ... . As long as you do not play in keys from more than three or four root notes intonation is not in troubles. As Dave Holland mentioned, most of the repertoire can be played that way but not everything (nearly all the traditional tunes but not all recent compositions). Fore this it is neccessary to adjust the high notes on the keyboard so they can be played without hesitation ;-) (This creates a limit for te quality of the instrument, but on the other hand this should be a basic standard anyway). 5) traditionally the decission between D/G and G/C also means the decission between two strings in octave tuning: d' d'' , and two paralell strings in g'. So there is a big sound difference. This can be avoided by using a G octave setting g - g' but the low g (violin G) does not sound good on many luthback instruments. 6)playing a G/C instrument has the advantage of playing a non transposing instrument, so a "c" is a "c" and flats and sharps are where they are suposed to be: in the accidental row of keys what makes reading music easier. 7) if you plan to play with other musicians your decission for one or the other tuning can strongly limit the common possibilities, especially if you do not have the same drones for the same keys: You can play in the combination G-pipes or G/C accordeon and D-hurdy-gurdy but if the HG has no G-drone and G-trompette there is just one root note in common, the G. 8)So, in some cases playing more than the traditional keys based on two root notes may cause that you wish to have a second trompette, this is when you have key changes within the tune or set wich demand for a certain (common) drone. thats it for a beginning, regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:38:47 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia Hi, on the traditional tekerő the key sides of the key face are rounded, with the amount of flat space between the slopes determined by the width of the key. On my instrument, for example, the low A (fingered C, because it is a transposing instrument) has basically no flat on the key face, but the B above it (fingered D) has about 3/4" (<2 cm) of flat on the face of the key. I believe this to be about typical, as it matches the tekerős I have seen. On the other hand there is a tendency for modern makers to install the cleaner and more intuitive French-style keys on instruments, eliminating this. This has the advantage of making the keys appear neater and more even. By the way, if you tune all the strings on the tekerő to the same note, as some people do, you end up with an odd keyboard arrangement in a mode if you just stick to the lower row of keys (I forget which one -- whichever you get by flatting the 7th from the major scale). For the Hungarian keyboard to make sense (as far as it ever does) you tune the keyboard to E and the drones to A, which allows you to play in A. Does that help on the tekerő at all? (BTW, I am curious about the tunings Simon was referring to. A lot of traditional Hungarian instruments had very odd tunings at various points in history -- things like neutral thirds and sixths, neither minor nor major. I am not surprised that he would have found references to odd tunings.) Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:01:48 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: about keyboards and tunings was:[HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia arle lommel wrote: > on the traditional tekerő the key sides of the key face are rounded, with > the amount of flat space between the slopes determined by the width of the > key. On my instrument, for example, the low A (fingered C, because it is a > transposing instrument) has basically no flat on the key face, but the B > above it (fingered D) has about 3/4" (<2 cm) of flat on the face of the key. > I believe this to be about typical, as it matches the tekerős I have seen. > > On the other hand there is a tendency for modern makers to install the > cleaner and more intuitive French-style keys on instruments, eliminating > this. This has the advantage of making the keys appear neater and more even. Ah! now I understand. To me this roundness of the keys is not something typical hungarian since one can find it on lots of other instruments too. A very nice example are the instruments made by Paolo Coriani of Modena. In fact he mainly makes luthback instruments with a partition of the keys like on many modern (french) instruments with no spaces between the accidental row of keys, but with very round keys (a sort of nearly eliptical form) in both rows. One speciality of his is that the diatonic row of keys is as high as the accidental row, about 8 to 10 mm. His keyboards are very nice to play on. Also Wolfgang Weichselbaumer makes quite round Keys or Denis Siorat. I think these sharp edged french keyboards are maybe neatly looking and easy to make but not nice to play on. But as in many things this is mainly a matter of customization for the individual player, since it is easiely done to rounden a sharp edged keyboard. For me the main advantage of round keys is the space you win at the higher and therefore narrower keys, because the neighbour-keys are not touched instantely if the fingers are too big or less precise. Speaking of the accidental row of keys, I would never want an instrument with tooth-spaces because this would make it harder to find the key when playing fast in keys with more accidentals: The C# key must be on the place to replace the C within a scale (so being placed above the C; for playing in D-major) and also being on the right place to replace the D as a Db like in C-phrygian (being placed above the D) so it is usefull if it is as long as possible. > > By the way, if you tune all the strings on the tekerő to the same note, as > some people do, you end up with an odd keyboard arrangement in a mode if you > just stick to the lower row of keys (I forget which one -- whichever you get > by flatting the 7th from the major scale) thats mixolydian, this is exactly what is the case with the french D instruments, which have in fact the same order of keys. . For the Hungarian keyboard to > make sense (as far as it ever does) you tune the keyboard to E and the > drones to A, which allows you to play in A. As I tried to explain before it is not so much a question of the order of the keys or the drones, but in the first hand a question of the music played which mode the instrument is in: on central French and hurdy-gurdies (and pipes) it is usual to have a keyboard order (with minor seventh in the diatonic row) and a drone which is tuned to the octave of the open melody string (D) and still playing in G (major, also: G-dorian, G-minor ...)! > > Does that help on the tekerő at all? The tekerö came, as I read in the literatur about it, to hungary from the west, and in fact the next relatives I know are historical Austrian Instruments from the 18th century. It obviously does not reflect the changes in the design and construction which took place in France in the 18th century, but is related to the instruments of the time before. To understand the tekerö, it is important to understand that not so long ago, lets say up to mid 19th century, hurdy-gurdies were commonly known nearly all over Europe and hungary is just one of these outskirts where the instrument survived. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:23:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hi, Marc Since nobody else has come forward yet, I'll bite. I've giving our question a lot of thought and decided it needs more discussion: --- Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> wrote: > Hello, > I'm looking for some info: > In whitch direction should the melody cam be ,or: > is the right angle on > the direction of the wheel or in the direction of > the string holder ? I'm not sure which part "melody cam" is so I went to Destrem & Heideman and didn't find the specific reference. I think you mean the "catch pin" or chanter rest that keeps the string from the wheel when not playing. The diagram in D & H shows a type I've never seen but uses the same term for both melody string and trompette: "catch pin, Stift zum Aushangen, tourillon degagement". If I'm correct, the measurements aren't all that critical. It needs to be high enough to clear the string completely from the wheel when not playing (and of course high enough to not interfere with the string when it IS playing) and low enough to clear the keybox lid. The notches don't need to be very deep, I'd just hit them with the file a couple of times and if thats not enough, give it a couple more passes and repeat as needed. The direction of the angled parts are parallel with the wheel, but it shouldn't matter whether they point in the direction of rotation or against it. As stated above: I'm not at all sure that's the right part. If it's not, please give us more description, and I'll try again, or better yet, perhaps one of the experts may rise to the bait. The mailing list archives are at: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/listarch/hg_arch.html Hope that helps Roy Trotter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:10:19 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was Thanks for your detailed and insightful comments Simon. You made me think about some things in more detail and with more attention than I had before. > I think these sharp edged french keyboards are maybe neatly looking and > easy to make but not nice to play on. But as in many things this is > mainly a matter of customization for the individual player, since it is > easiely done to rounden a sharp edged keyboard. For me the main > advantage of round keys is the space you win at the higher and therefore > narrower keys, because the neighbour-keys are not touched instantely if > the fingers are too big or less precise. I hadn't though about that as an advantage, probably because I only play tekerő, but I can see that there would be a distinct advantage in reducing miskeying. Also, just thinking about what you wrote, it seems to me that having the rounded corners would make it easier to feel the key's boundaries as there would be a distinct boundary, rather than a hairline boundary. > Speaking of the accidental row of keys, I would never want an instrument > wht my instrument was misassembled with this key in the wrong place (turned the wrong way), but I found pictures of others with exactly the same configuration, so I have to conclude it is normal. I think it rather odd and have to say that keyboard configuration could be improved in the traditional tekerő. > thats mixolydian, this is exactly what is the case with the french D > instruments, which have in fact the same order of keys. > > As I tried to explain before it is not so much a question of the order > of the keys or the drones, but in the first hand a question of the music > played which mode the instrument is in: on central French and > hurdy-gurdies (and pipes) it is usual to have a keyboard order (with > minor seventh in the diatonic row) and a drone which is tuned to the > octave of the open melody string (D) and still playing in G (major, > also: G-dorian, G-minor ...)! OK, I see what you are saying. The Hungarian keyboard, however, because of the seeming misarrangement of the one key, seems odd no matter how you tune it. In any event the traditional Hungarian tuning is: melody: E (so that the tonic A sounds on the third key) tenor drone: A one fifth below the melody string bass drone: A one octave below the tenor drone This allows you to play in various A modes, dorian (if I remember any of the modes right) being the most common, but natural minor also fairly common. Traditional Hungarian music rarely strays out of keys based on a single tonic, with modal variations common (and with alternating major and minor thirds important in more recent work). Thus the majority of traditional tunes are contained in a little more than an octave (A to A in this case) with heavy use of the dominant below (the open melody string) as part of the ornamentation. The use of the dominant below is especially pronounced in the duda (bagpipe) and in music that is derived from duda music (a substantial body of surviving traditional tunes). Because the tekerő is considered musically similar to the duda a lot of what ends up played on the tekerő (and the Hungarian zither as well), is adapted from duda tunes. (Incidentally the range on my tekerő is E to E [two octaves], but only because I tune the highest note to E rather than D because if tuned down to D the C# tangent crashes into it and gets stuck. Normally the range is E to D, with fully chromatic possibilities in between. In my tuning I am missing D and D# from the upper end of my scale.) > The tekerö came, as I read in the literatur about it, to hungary from > the west, and in fact the next relatives I know are historical Austrian > Instruments from the 18th century. It obviously does not reflect the > changes in the design and construction which took place in France in the > 18th century, but is related to the instruments of the time before. To > understand the tekerö, it is important to understand that not so long > ago, lets say up to mid 19th century, hurdy-gurdies were commonly known > nearly all over Europe and hungary is just one of these outskirts where > the instrument survived. Yes, despite speculation on this list about Gypsies bringing the tekerő from elsewhere (in the East), it almost certainly came from the west (see my post from yesterday about why it is *highly* unlikely that Gypsies had anything to do with the tekerő's introduction to Hungary). Under King Matthias in the 1500s there was considerable cultural exchange with France in particular, and the tekerő probably arrived about this time, with considerable contact afterward with Austrian sources that lead to development of its modern form. (There are records from that time of the French king requesting Hungarian bagpipers for his court, so the music must have been similar enough to then-current French tastes that such a request was conceivable.) It is interesting to note the parallels in socio-economic factors leading to the marginalization of both the HG and bagpipe throughout the 1800s and early 1900s. The current resurgence in interest is something of an anomaly (but one I heartily approve of!). The long-term decline of droned instruments throughout Europe had a lot to do with their association with a poorer agrarian lifestyle. If we look the main bastions of droned instruments in Europe are those countries that stayed poor longest and which kept more people involved in agrarian/pastoral lifestyles. Ireland, Scotland, Galicia and Brittany, far from being economic powerhouses, were very backward countries until fairly recently. (And Galicia is still the poorest area of Spain -- I saw peasants still using oxen there as recently as 1996, a sight that prompted an ethnic Hungarian friend from Serbia to point out that he hadn't see that even in Serbia for years, and to ask if this was the level of the EU.) Best, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:58:00 +0200 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hello, First of all :sorry for my English its bad (but I now). The part I was talking about is the chanter bridge Marc = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0700 From: PenPen Cloud <pennycloud _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: [HG] intro Dear Friends of Hurdy Gurdies, My name is Penny Cloud. I:ve been playing the hurdy gurdy for about 20 years. I play in the group French Creek, based in California, and prefer the music of central France. Musically yours, Penny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:44:13 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was arle lommel wrote: (...) > This is something many people complain about with the tekerő's keyboard. In > its case you have the D# (fingered F#) appearing above the C (fingered E) > rather than the D. I find this to be quite awkward because it appears and > feels as if this key is a full step lower than where it should be. At first > I thought my instrument was misassembled with this key in the wrong place > (turned the wrong way), but I found pictures of others with exactly the same > configuration, so I have to conclude it is normal. I think it rather odd and > have to say that keyboard configuration could be improved in the traditional > tekerő. in fact what people here in Austria do when they buy hungarian instruments (which are quite cheap) is to turn the 3rd accidental key to the other side (and make a new, longer crank). > OK, I see what you are saying. The Hungarian keyboard, however, because of > the seeming misarrangement of the one key, seems odd no matter how you tune > it. In any event the traditional Hungarian tuning is: > melody: E (so that the tonic A sounds on the third key) > tenor drone: A one fifth below the melody string > bass drone: A one octave below the tenor drone To my observations this keyboard setup is in no way odd. If you tune the open string to G you get the same order of diatonic and accidental notes as on a piano-keyboard (the drones are in C then). the oddities ocure solemly out of the shift of the root note (a tekerö can be seen as a kind of transposing instrument, but transposing + three sharps, or beiing based on a very low standard pitch: A at about 367 Hz) (...) > with heavy use of the dominant below (the open melody string) as part of the > ornamentation. The use of the dominant below is especially pronounced in the > duda (bagpipe) and in music that is derived from duda music (a substantial > body of surviving traditional tunes). Same situation in all the central european area from bavarian to slovak tradition: bagpipes with the fifth as lowest note and a wide repertoire on folk melodies starting from the fifth on the anacrusis upwards to the tonica in the first beat. I cannot tell whether the instrument was first or the fondness of this type of melodies and ornamentation. (...) Under King Matthias in the > 1500s there was considerable cultural exchange with France in particular, > and the tekerő probably arrived about this time, with considerable contact > afterward with Austrian sources that lead to development of its modern form. > (There are records from that time of the French king requesting Hungarian > bagpipers for his court, so the music must have been similar enough to > then-current French tastes that such a request was conceivable.) To my own suprise I found an text by an hungarian music scientist (in german) who said that his research shows that the hurdy-gurdy arrived in hungary not before the beginning of the 18th century ( I am not really sure if I want to agree, but this shows that there is a lot of speculation in this topic. Do not forget that hungary for a long time was the frontier between the German Empire and the Turks meaning partly under turkish reign and cut of from the exchange between other parts of Europe) (...) regards Simon Wascher, - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:06:38 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was What a day. I was out all day doing a cool gig, then sea kayaking... Then I came home to this treasure of information. I'm sort of speechless, but I couldn't help writing at least a note saying that I love all this info... I didn't quite follow the tekero description, even though I'm usually good with transposition. ex. <...you have the D# (fingered F#) appearing above the C (fingered E) rather than the D...> I will study this description quite a bit more. It must just be me. Is it that the tekero is in A but we are describing it as if it were in C? Like A equals C, or C# equals E? On rounded keys, one thing would be rounded-edged keys. But even more so, I see in a photo tekero key ends that look like the ends of sticks. The photo is the cover of Robert Mandel's "Eastern European Hurdy-Gurdy Music" LP. (1983) And, I have that scaned if anyone would need to see it. So it got me thinking that the end of some tekeros' keys were like stick ends. Then I thought that those would just be "less western." Like thinking that some tekeros are more western, and other ones are less so. On modes: dorian is minor with a flatted seventh. Mixolydian is major with a flatted seventh. .............................. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:05:28 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was Hello, zhenya wrote: (...) > On modes: dorian is minor with a flatted seventh. sorry to correct you, dorian is minor without flattened sixth (the flattened seventh is in mixolydian, dorian, minor, phrygian and lokrian). Maybe one can say: dorian is minor with only a flatted seventh (if the minor third is seen as a precondition in the minor mode) Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:15:03 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was Yes, the tekerő in its standard tuning is a transposing instrument in A (so that the keyboard looks like it's in C). In addition most music (at least that I have) is written out as though in C to allow for easier playing. (By the way, the tuning on the Hungarian zither is basically identical to the tekerő but with considerably more drone strings to play around with.) The tekerő you are describing would be atypical I think. It would drive me nuts to have keys only about 1 cm wide with 2 cm gaps between them at places. Seems like a style that rightly belongs to the musical graveyard. (Where can I take a look at your scanned image anyway?) From what Simon says I think my tekerő is very typical in its keyboard configuration. I have no way of taking a picture of the keyboard at present, but I will do so at some point and put it up somewhere for anyone who is interested. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:22:37 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was Uh, sorry for the stupid statement: > In addition most music (at least that I have) is written out as though in C to > allow for easier playing. Of course that's the case if it's a transposing instrument. I am up way too early. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:25:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp) hey Marc: Oh; the bridge... A lot of that is going to depend on the individual instrument. > In whitch direction should the melody cam be ,or: > is the right angle on > the direction of the wheel or in the direction of > the string holder ? There again I'm not sure that I understand the question, but... If you mean the right angle to the soundboard....One side of the brige goes straight up and the other is angled? I've seen that both ways, but I believe the correct answer is that the vertical is on the tailpiece side. This will help resist string pressure. > What is the distance between cam and wheel? That's not really critical. The closer the wheel is to the bridge, the harsher and louder it will be. It would make a lot more sense to adjust the wheel to the bridge than vice versa. The critical distance is _scale_length_. That may be hard to do with moveable nuts, but you can get pretty close by halving scale length and measuring from the octave tangent. > what is the exact height of a cam This is VERY Instrument specific. If you have everything else assembled, you could lay a straightedge down the string course. The pegbox end should clear the 1st keyshaft, but not by much. The other end should rest on the wheel. The bridge height can be measured from there. Add a few mm to the top: just to be sure, you can trim the excess off later. > and how deep should the notches be in > which the strings are? No deeper than 1/2 the diameter of the string on the wheel side, it would be a good idea to angledown a bit on the tailpiece side. If you need to go deeper for good wheel contact, that's the aforementioned excess to be trimmed later. That's just dead weight up there. > I now they are on the drawings but I want to > understand why they are > that way... > Besides on old drawings they are not always in the > same > direction...should this be considered as a fauld or > not ? As above, facing the vertical to the bridge will resist string pressure better. The calibration would be a lot easier the other way, but I can't think of any other reason to do that. I'm still hoping for an expert to chip in. Hope that helps. Roy Trotter P.S. Your English is probably better than my grasp of the obvious. By the way, what's "geen onterwerp" mean? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:37:32 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] Crank length Hi all, this question arises from Simon's comments about what Austrians generally do with Hungarian HGs when they get them. He indicated two things: 1. flip the third key in the upper row over so that its position makes sense 2. add a longer crank OK, my background is only from a tekerő with neither of these changes made. I'm not going to make #1 because I am used to the weird keyboard now and changing the position of the key wouldn't help me any. Concerning #2, however, how long is a crank normally on other instruments? The distance from the center of the shaft to the center of the handle pivot on my instrument is about 2 1/2" (6 cm). After going through the HG website and looking at pictures I can't tell how long they are. Also, what would the difference be in playing a HG with a long crank versus a short crank? If there is a distinct advantage I would be interested in making a longer handle in a style to match the original. Any observations would be welcome. Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:25:57 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Crank length Hello, xcuse Arle that You get this twice, but I got the [HG] version just after I sent the answer. arle lommel wrote: > this question arises from Simon's comments about what Austrians generally do > with Hungarian HGs when they get them. He indicated two things: (...) 2. add a longer crank > Concerning #2, however, how long is a crank normally on other instruments? > The distance from the center of the shaft to the center of the handle pivot > on my instrument is about 2 1/2" (6 cm). if there is something like a standard I would say its at about 6.9 to 7.1 cm for french and by french traditional playing technique influenced instruments. (...) Also, what would the > difference be in playing a HG with a long crank versus a short crank? The difference can be seen in the difference between french and hungarian technique for the right hand. A 6/8 rhythm played in c.4 or similar is quite impossible with an hungarian (short) crank. Performing hungarian right hand technique with a long handle will be rather difficult too. the differences come from the different distance the hand(le) has to pass at the same angle of a turn. So the movement of the hand - and the arm - gets bigger when te handle gets longer. This allows more control of the speed of the handle and resulting more control of the sound of the buzzzz (but you never will get the characteristic sound of a hungarian tekerö if using a long crank). Regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:54:20 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hello, Roy Trotter wrote: > hey Marc: > > What is the distance between cam and wheel? > > That's not really critical. On a Violin the player changes the point where the bow touches the string for every note. There is a optimum partition of the string for best sound generation and the shorter the string (and higher the pitch) the more this point of best sound generation moves towards the bridge (since the proportion stays roughly the same). On a HG the point where the string is touched stays the same for all notes/string lenghts/pitches, so it is better for some notes/string lenghts/pitches and worse for others. The point where the wheel touches the string is allways a copromise between good sounding lowe notes/string lenghts/pitches and good sounding higer registers. If the wheel touches far from the bridge this is better for the low notes/string lenghts/pitches if the wheel gets closer to the bridges this is better for the playability with higher notes/tangents/frets. Keep in mind that changing the distance between wheel and bridge also changes the angle in which the string is bent at the edge of the wheel towards the bridge. If this angle gets to steep the free movement of the string is disturbed. To my experience the string should not be bent more than its own diameter (at the bridge). > > > and how deep should the notches be in > > which the strings are? > > No deeper than 1/2 the diameter of the string on the > wheel side, it would be a good idea to angledown a bit > on the tailpiece side. If you need to go deeper for > good wheel contact, that's the aforementioned excess > to be trimmed later. That's just dead weight up there. Its not just dead weight, its sound killing weight. > (...) Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:22:24 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] partial plans for tekerő on line Hi all, almost two years ago I started a project to put complete plans for my tekerő on-line, but I stalled on it due to lack of time. Today I dug the plans out of the depths of my hard drive and started the process of converting them from an old version of Macromedia Freehand to Adobe Illustrator, a process that is not the most reliable. Because it is unlikely that I will finish the plans in the near-term future (i.e., within the next few months) I have decided to post the parts as-is for anyone interested in them. They are at: http://www.ttt.org/tekero/tekerplans.zip The zip file contains six PDF files, all set up for US tabloid size paper (11 x 17"), which is roughly equivalent to international A3 paper. The files in the zip are as follows: keybox01.zip, keybox02.zip, keybox03.zip: details for the construction of the keybox on my tekerő pegbox.pdf: partial views of the pegbox assembly pegbox_wheelcover.pdf: rest of the pegbox and the wheelcover keys.pdf: details of the keys. This file is incomplete in that it does not show the tangents and most of the keys do not have dimensions given (although measurements could be taken from the plans directly). *** All of the plans are at full scale and most show multiple views of the parts. I make no guarantees that these are free from error, especially as I had to convert them from my old files, but I am reasonably confident that they are within a reasonable margin of error from the real thing. I will update these plans as I have time and hope to have the full plans available early next year. Also, I am not a professional draughtsman by any means, but the plans are well-drawn (when I took woodworking classes at college I had my plans used as examples of very neat and precise plans). What this means is that my plans are drawn more from my woodworking background than from any experience drawing musical instruments, so the views will not be like what most of you are used to as luthiers, but may look a lot like what a cabinent maker would use. Eventually I will add photos and a detailed explanation of all the parts and give that to the Hackmans to post on the HG website for anyone who wants it. When completed it should provide a good resource for information on building Hungarian style instruments. (I hope I am not advertising vaporware here!) For now the work is very much in progress and I provide for those with an interest in how the tekerő is constructed, but not as plans to build your own. Perhaps some day... -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:12:41 -0500 From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com> Subject: [HG] 100% alcohol Dear HG list, Does anyone know where I can get 100% alcohol here in the States? The best I can locate is about 90% everclear from the liquor store, and I remember reading that you need the 100% pure to mix with the rosin. The pharmacies don't carry it here. I have been using the liguid rosin (purchased pre mixed at St.Chartier) for about a month now and find it very effective and simple but the mixture is a bit too sticky, thus I need to dilute it. Regards, Theo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:04:34 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was Hi Simon, Oh, I knew. Just slight word meaning. I meant the minor as in just the third. I know dorian well since it is trendy with college jazzers, of whom I taught for a year. I figured someone would call me on being too simple. I did hope so. :) Thanks. There is also minor pentatonic, harmonic & melodic minor. I said not too much so as to not seem like too much a theory hound. :) Heh. But it's fun. I left an imperfection in this letter, too. As if modes and scales are just the same. But...what seems interesting to me is the scale and or mode in eastern European tekero and lira music. (Should I combine those two in one sentence?) It was mentioned the uncertianty of things back in musical history, yet folk music caught the ear of certian musical historians. I have one Lira recording from 1920. Certianly it seems in G minor. But may be the scale would be, well, allow me please to describe it as if it were in C: G Ab B C D Eb F# G Ab Bb C. And that was the upper limit of his singing, but in G instead of C. Arle: I'll send you the image I have... good-day all. .................. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:22:26 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: about keyboards and tunings was excerpt from the web on folk musical arts: With the passing of decades, American musical tastes changed. As peasants became middle-class Americans, appreciation of 'down-home" music decreased. Children of the immigrants were learning classical music, taking piano lessons, and moving out of the original settlements where traditional music was performed. Furthermore, after World War II, thousands of additional immigrants arrived - this time political refugees from occupation of their land. Largely educated city folks, their musical tastes ran to art songs, opera and classical composers. Recently, however there has developed a new interest in traditional folk music and instruments... ............................. ................. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:30:43 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] 100% alcohol Theo Bick wrote: > >Does anyone know where I can get 100% alcohol here in the States? The >best I can locate is about 90% everclear from the liquor store, and I >remember reading that you need the 100% pure to mix with the rosin. The >pharmacies don't carry it here. Excuse that I rise my voice in this case where I cannot answer your question. The best Alcohol you can expect usually is about 96%. The problem with Alc is that it takes water from the air humidity so the last 4% are a challange. I think you can try the 90% stuff as long as it is really 90%. I tried 70% stuff and this dried of to slowly and I am cautious that the water in it influences the wood of the wheel. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:32:30 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] 100% alcohol Theo - Re 100% alcohol - we recommend 95% (190 proof), as it's much cheaper. Everclear is 95%, which is available in some states at the liquor store (including, apparently, Texas). Tell them you DON'T want the denatured alcohol, not because you want to drink it (heaven forbid!) but because the denaturants are too unpredictable and sometimes quite hazardous: sometimes it's methanol, sometimes it's toluene, who knows? If you can't buy it directly, ask a friendly pharmacist. For the amount you need (for liquid rosin) they may just give it to you. The reason I say that buying the 100% stuff is a waste is that it's very hygroscopic - it absorbs moisture from the air unless you keep it in VERY dry conditions. What you have in the bottle will be 95% pretty quickly, so why bother paying so much more? (Ethanol forms an azeotropic mixture with 5% water, meaning that you can't distill it any more pure than 95% - after that one has to use other methods of purification to get it to 100%, and it does its best to get back to 95% as soon as it can.) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:22:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] 100% alcohol Hey Theo, are you back home, now? How was the canal ride? Don't ask me how I know this or why, but if you keep the alcohol in the freezer, the water will freeze, but the alcohol won't. You can take the ice out and ...whatever. Later Roy Trotter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:38:22 -0400 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] 100% alcohol We know this in Northern Michigan too, Roy! (It's the old homemade wine in the snowbank trick.) Judith :Hey Theo, : :are you back home, now? How was the canal ride? Don't :ask me how I know this or why, but if you keep the :alcohol in the freezer, the water will freeze, but the :alcohol won't. You can take the ice out and :...whatever. : :Later : :Roy Trotter From fenevad _at_ ttt.org Tue Mar 12 10:16:03 2002 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:56:23 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Reply-To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com To: hg hurdygurdy.com <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: [HG] downloads of music and partial tekerő plans Hi all, I should have asked this when I made the postings, but if any of you have downloaded the tekerő music or the partial drawings of the tekerő I posted on line recently could your please let me know off list (fenevad _at_ ttt.org)? I ask this because if no one is interested in them I won't bother doing more such plans or music, but if they are being downloaded and used that would give me incentive to post more such material. The files in question are: * http://www.ttt.org/tekero/aristomba.pdf (score for two variations on a tekerő tune) * http://www.ttt.org/tekero/two_tunes.pdf (score for two tekerő tunes) * http://www.ttt.org/tekero/tekerplans.zip (partial plans for parts of Hungarian tekerő) -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:59:34 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Some very sad news Dear HG list, It is with deep regret and sadness that I pass along this news: Pierre Imbert died on Wednesday night of a heart attack. I spoke this morning with Lucie Lareau, who said that his funeral may be on Monday the 20th, but it's not confirmed yet. A fund for Diana and the boys is being set up, and there will likely be a benefit concert for them. I'll post more details as they become available. Lucie's address is below if you would like to send a contribution. Pierre was an incredible player, and our beloved friend. We will miss him greatly. Alden and Cali ************************************* > from randy raine-reusche' FAworld list post.... > > ~~~~~ > > The world music scene mourns the loss of French vielle master Pierre > Imbert, who passed away last night Aug. 15th of a heart attack. > > Pierre was well known as the leader of the Vancouver based trio Cordes > en Folie, as well as a past member of Ad Vielle qui Pourra and Lo jai. > Pierre was a key figure in the revival of the hurdy gurdy and French > Traditional music in the 70's. Pierre had lived in Vancouver, Canada > for the past six years and had become an important part of the music > scene there. He was an active member and founder of the Vancouver World Music > Collective. > > Pierre has had a history of heart problems, but continued to perform > regularly. Pierre is survived by his wife Diana Stewart-Imbert, and two > young sons Dario and Stephane. > > Condolences can be sent by email to llareau _at_ hotmail.com Details of > services have not yet been arranged. Please contact Lucie Lareau > llareau _at_ hotmail.com if you wish to contribute to the family, or wish > more information. > > More info on Pierre Imbert is available at http://www.cordesenfolie.com > ************************************ Lucie Lareau Productions world music agent 604.408.9197 asza.com cordesenfolie.com vancouverworldmusic.org llareauprod _at_ telus.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:19:03 -0700 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: [HG] RE: [HG] downloads of music and partial tekerő plans I tried to download the partial plans by clicking on the url you supplied (takerplans.zip) but I get a DNS error message for that and the other pages, too. Cannot find server or DNS Error Internet Explorer Bob Mackie = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:10:14 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: RE: [HG] downloads of music and partial teker ő plans Hmmm... I am not sure why you would get such an error. I have no problem retrieving them from the links I specified by clicking on them. DNS errors usually crop up because (1) a server does not actually exist, (2) a server has lost its listing, or (3) a particular name server doesn't have its listing. 1 and 2 don't apply here as I can access the server quite readily (unless somehow the server was down briefly at the time you tried to get the plans). Try the following link to get the plans: http://209.181.150.13/tekero/tekerplans.zip If that link works then the problem is likely with the domain name server your ISP uses. Let me know if the above link works. BTW, the name "takerplans.zip" as you typed it is wrong. That should not have returned the error you describe, but copy and paste the URL above into your browser rather than typing it in, just to be on the safe side. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:25:16 -0400 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: [HG] RE: [HG] downloads of music and partial tekerő plans Arle: The site works for me. I enjoyed the music and shared it with some others. Thanks for doing that... Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:37:29 -0700 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: [HG] RE: [HG] downloads of music and partial tekerő plans Dear Arle, Thanks for providing the alternate address. For whatever reason, the server I use does not allow for the href to the other. I still am unable to retrieve the scores, though. I can't sight-read anyway. By the way, the plans seem to me to be easily understood, although I would like to see a picture of the finished product just for reference. Thanks again for doing all this. I am going to wind up with my own hg/takero by the end of the year somehow or another. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:37:49 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] RE: [HG] downloads of music and partial teker ő plans One of the additional items that will be added sometime in the near future is a set of photos of the instrument showing everything. I actually have a lot more drawn by hand that I have to transfer to the computer than what I actually posted, so there will be more parts added later. The biggest difficulty is that I have no way to make accurate measurements of the internal supports and ribbing of the body, so that will be a bit of a blank. Anyway I will post more of this sometime in the future before too long. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:15:16 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] tekerő downloads Hi again, I feel almost as if I am spamming the list, but this should be the last one for a while. I got enough response from people off list that I decided to create a little front end for the downloadable files I put up. If you go to http://www.ttt.org/tekero you will find a simple page with links to the content I have created. Anyone who wishes to add anything to this page can contact me and I will add it with appropriate credit to the source. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:08:33 +0100 From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: [HG] Re: [HG] partial plans for tekerő on line Can I add my experience? I also got the cannot find or DNS error message. I look forward to seeing the answer George Swallow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:16:58 +0100 From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: [HG] Re: [HG] downloads of music and partial tekerő plans http://209.181.150.13/tekero/tekerplans.zip This one worked! Thanks Arle. Hope you get time in years to come to supply the rest! George Swallow From tbick _at_ austin.rr.com Tue Mar 12 10:16:03 2002 Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:10:11 -0500 From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com> Subject: [HG] everclear Dear HG list, Thanks for the advise on the alcohol mixture. Today I will get some everclear, I found a liquor store that sells 95% (190 proof) and will mix up a batch of liquid rosin. Later I'll post the results. Regards, Theo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:56:24 +0200 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> Subject: Re: [HG] everclear Hello, I heard a few times already about liquid rosin. Can somebody give me a recepe of that and an instruction how to use it ? I gave the wheel of my HG a few coats of rosin mixt in alcohol ,just to saturate it before putting it to work Is this the same or do you use it instead of the pure rosin you put on the wheel befor playing ? Marc = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:26:18 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] everclear Hello, Reymen V wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit Hello, I heard a few times already about liquid rosin. Can somebody give me a recepe of that and an instruction how to use it ? > I gave the wheel of my HG a few coats of rosin mixt in alcohol ,just to > saturate it before putting it to work Is this the same or do you use it > instead of the pure rosin you put onthe wheel befor playing ? More or less, yes. There was a quite intense mail exchange on this topic, I think it must have been somewhen in the first quarter of the year, so it is not in the archives yet, and since I posted from another account then, I do not have the exchange in my trash-file ;-) . But maybe someone can find it in the dephts of their harddisk. regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:05:27 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: [HG] Fw: Caution: Industrial alcohol Dear HG list. I have this letter to offer on this subject. It seem very good and worth the time to see. I'm glad I found it. The list is a Ukranian mailing list... as follows: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrij " Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: Caution: Industrial alcohol > At 03:16 PM 06/20/01 EDT, you wrote: > But I remember the alcohol that my father getting these sealed pint bottles, > with a large yellow label : "For Industrial use only!" "100% pure Ethanol". > "Not gor sale to the public". .............................. his answer: If my memory does not betray me altogether, I recall from either my organic or physical chemistry course that ethanol and water forms an azeotropic mixture of 95% alcohol. In practice, this means that no matter how much more heat is applied, you cannot distill the water out, you're stuck with 95% ethanol because this mixture boils at < 100 C. For industrial purposes, when truly anhydrous ethanol is needed, it can be distilled to a higher percentage with benzene to ca. 98% purity. That's the ethanol-benzene azeotrope. This is known as industrial ethanol. Although fortunately I have no direct negative experience, only horror stories of what happened to others, but benzene is very poisonous, and I would not want to consume it in any quantity whatsoever. From a physiological standpoint, the difference between 95% and 98% ethanol is minimal, but even 2% benzene I do not want to have in my body, I'll gladly put up with 5% water. You're very lucky, Lyubku, that you and your family did not consume much of that industrial ethyl alcohol, the benzene could have done irreparable damage to your bodies. So everybody (be careful for all children), for the sake of your health, not to say life, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES cosume industrial ethanol, your body will never forgive you. Andrij Dr. Andrij Hornjatkevyc Associate Professor Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies 450 Athabasca Hall (NEW!) University of Alberta Edmonton, AB T6G 2E8 or Modern Languages and Cultural Studies 200 Arts Building University of Alberta Edmonton, AB T6G 2E6 ....................................................... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:29:59 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Service and memorial for Pierre Imbert Here is some information about Pierre's funeral. Alden >Subject: Services for Pierre Imbert >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:56:16 -0700 > >For those that would like to celebrate the life of Pierre Imbert and >support his family, final good-byes to Pierre can be said at the 1st >memorial Funeral Chapel at 1505 Lilloet Rd. in North Vancouver on >Tuesday Aug 21st, from 2:30-4 pm. > >There will also be a memorial celebration on Sept. 1st at 8pm at the >Vancouver East Cultural Centre, admission is by donation to The Pierre >Imbert Legacy Fund (cash or cheques payable to Diana Stewart-Imbert), >set up for the education of his two sons, Dario, age 9, and Stephan, age >11. This event will be open to the public, and will feature >performances of musicians and groups Pierre played with as well as >eulogies by his good friends and family. Those who wish to speak or >perform are asked to contact Lucie Lareau llareau _at_ hotmail.com with your >requests. Presentations are limited to 5 minutes to allow an >opportunity for all to present. > >In lieu of flowers, people are being asked to send a cheque or money >order (payable to Diana Stewart-Imbert) to the Pierre Imbert Legacy >Fund, Box 44639 Garden Park, Vancouver, BC, V5M 4R8, Canada. For direct >deposit or wiring information please contact llareau _at_ hotmail.com > >Personal messages can be sent to the family at the postal and email >address given above. > >Thank you to all of you that have already sent messages, as the family >really appreciates your love for Pierre. > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:48:49 -0500 From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com> Subject: Re: [HG] everclear > There was a quite intense mail exchange on this topic, I think it must > have been somewhen in the first quarter of the year, so it is not in the > archives yet, and since I posted from another account then, I do not > have the exchange in my trash-file ;-) . But maybe someone can find it > in the dephts of their harddisk. > > regards, > > Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria I found this on my hard drive, Theo S. Neumeier wrote: it is easy to produce liquid rosin yourself. You just have to put small pieces of rosin into pure high concentrated alcohol and liquidate the rosin in it (be sure to get pure alcohol. You should get it in the drugstore. It has not to be the expensive medical stuff). The liquid rosin is a very sticky solution Simon: Use a very small bottle with a dropper (Ihope this is the right word: a device that is put into the bottleneck and let the liquid only drop outside) not a pipette (this all is to minimize possible dammage done by spilled alcohol and rosin mixture). (Theo: I have been using a dropper with no accidents yet.) the solution should not be too sticky: if you put it on your fingers and rub them it should add some friction but not give a "glueing" touch. One can adjust the solution by adding alcohol or a thick rosin solution to a point where it does give the right wheel surface without much further manipulation after adding it on the wheel surface. S. Neumeier wrote: and you can use it to "glue" the cotton to the strings. You even need to do that if you want to play in a manner where you have to turn the wheel forward and backward so that the cotton will stay where it is. (you will probably have fun changing the cotton :-)). Simon: If you ever have troubles removing cotton fixed with rosin, use the alcohol solution as an disolver S. Neumeier wrote: You also can use the solution on the wheel. Simon: this is the main purpose of the stuff. The idea was taken probably from polishing wood surfaces on furniture. As mentioned the solution can be adjusted not to be too sticky so it is possible to get a standardised quantum of rosin to the surface. A major advantage is the possibility of cleaning the wheel surface from dust and fat every time one aplies rosin. S. Neumeier wrote: Take a brush that has the same wide than your wheel. While turning the wheel you apply a thin layer of the solution. Simon: I personaly use a small (about pea size) piece of cotton, put about two or three drops of the solution on it and aply this to the turning wheel in a way that the whole surface is coverd neatly (important: all strings off!). (Theo: I use a cotton ball the size of a cherry.) S. Neumeier wrote: Now you let it take time to dry (the longer the better, maybe an hour). not the best solution but a hairdryer can help to spee up the process but you have to be extremely careful that the heat will not harm your hurdygurdy. Simon: I never found any reason to use a hairdryer. Let dry the alcohol away some seconds (1 - 20) and use a ball of cotton for drying up finaly and optimize the surface and sound.(By pressing the cotton ball against the wheel surface causes friction and therefore heat is produced. This helps drying up and melting the rosin surface to perfect). Finaly press the cotton ball hard against the edges of the wheel surface and remove rosin from there for improofing the sound. There is a good criterion for the right amount of rosin on the surface: presumed that the presure of the strings upon the wheel is correct there should be a clear sound (not noise) from the very moment the wheel is turned slowly. If there is a starting noise either the rosin or the pressure is to much, if there is a tempo where the wheel slips trough under the string without creating sound either the rosin or the pressure is to less. So, thats it. Sandpaper (600 to 800), as mentioned by S. Neumeier is really a help for removing to much rosin applied but not a necessity if the rosin solution is al right. The applied rosin should keep the instrument going the next two to twenty playing hours, depending on string pressure and local conditions. I personaly own also a block of rosin for giving me a secure feeling under stress on the stage because the block can be used faster, but in fact rosin applied from the block does not last that long. so, thats it for the moment, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:43:00 +0100 From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] everclear Surgical spirit works fine for me. > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:21:42 +0200 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> Subject: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hello, Last week I went to my local wood shop. They sell tropical wood for floors in the garden. Between the planks they put small bars to seperate them. He always put's them in the fire to get rit of them I asked him if he nows what kind of wood it was but he didn't now. I took a few of them home, just to identify them . That I have still to do, but the wood is perfect for new tangents and or tangent bars. Very closed structure and the grain is very straight . I think it's time to visit your dealer..... Marc = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:18:33 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] Address not working Hi all, for those of you who tried to download some of the files I made and posted and couldn't get through, the problem seems to have been with minor outbreaks of the CodeRed worm (or are at least consistent with its behavior). It is likely that those of you unable to get the files through the alpha address (and who had to use the number) were dealing with ISPs that had part of their service down due to either CodeRed or something similar. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:53:11 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Tekero drawings My husband must have 10 or 15,Yet he has never really seen one in person!!!!!!!! He spends hours studying and thinking of ways , how one day he may own one!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is really his mid life craze!!!!!!!!!!!!! i will ask him to send you one. thanks lauraa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:43:36 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Tekero drawings Hi George, as soon as get some film for my camera and can find a place to scan a picture I will put some on that website. It may be a few weeks though as I have to travel for work to Chicago next week and will be gone for the whole time. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:36:27 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] a suggestion from Nagy Balázs, RT and others Hello all, Nagy Balázs wrote to me yesterday concerning a holiday celebration in Budapest (August 20th is a big holiday in Hungary) that included an exposition of instruments by various masters. Szerenyi Béla, one of the masters of the tekerő was featured, and the tekerő had a high profile as a result. Balázs says that a number of list members were there (R.T., Marcos, and others) and that they started talking about the list and came up with the idea that somewhere there should be a page where list members can post photos of themselves so that list members can know each other a little better. To me this seems like something that should be on the hg website, but it would take time to create and maintain and therefore might have to appear elsewhere than at hurdygurdy.com. Is this something that most list members would be interested in? If so I could take the lead in creating such a page, either as something I would hand off to Alden and Cali, or as something that could reside along with the page I just created for the tekerő. Any thoughts? -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:54:48 -0500 From: Aaron and Carolyn Gritzmaker <gritz _at_ hpnc.com> Subject: [HG] Re: [HG] a suggestion from Nagy Balázs, RT and others You all probably have already kicked this idea around and decided against it, but just in case that's not so, have you considered a web site with yahoo groups? Several lists I belong to have sits there and along with the email you also have access to the group's web page where you can post files, photos and there can also be archives. If you don't mind signing up with yahoo and answering their questions (and the ads), it might work. Just a thought. I would strongly suggest that if this is done, that no attachments be allowed with the email list, just posted to the web site. That can be done when setting up the group. Carolyn in Maypearl, Texas = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:46:24 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Tekero drawings Hi George, I just remembered that I had some pictures of a Barsonyi tekerő that is quite similar in many regards to the one I have. Go to the website I have posted materials on and you will now find some pictures of a tekerő there. Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:22:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Chiara Negro <ghiro_chi _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] a suggestion from Nagy Balázs, RT and others Dear list, that seems a good idea ! I' ve send some photos of me and my tekero ( by Mr Szérenyi Béla ) to Jim Winters, he can send it for you ! Ciao to Laura ! Chiara = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:26:52 +0100 From: michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com Subject: [HG] French Session in Leeds Just a reminder that there will be another French Music session in Leeds on September 3rd at the Cardigan Arms, Kirkstall Road, opposite the Warner Cinema. Usually kicks off around 8 - 8.30. Music is provided if necessary Snozz = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:13:59 -0400 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: [HG] Re: [HG] a suggestion from Nagy Balázs, RT and others I'm here. OK. :) from, jim w. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] RE:_[HG]_a_suggestion_from_Nagy_Balázs, _RT_and_others --- michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com wrote: > WIth regards to this idea, which I think is a good > one, I have had a look on > Yahoo and there is actually a Hurdy Gurdy club in > existence already. > The URL is http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/hurdygurdies > > Does anyone know who set this up? > I tried to contact the "founder", and got a mailer daemon msg that the email address was cancelled, but the club seems to work ok, so I would guess it's fair game. Later, Roy T. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:50:43 -0500 From: Patricia A. Lipscomb <plipscomb _at_ qwest.net> Subject: [HG] transportation to OTW I can offer some partial transportation to out-of-towners to OTW. My work schedule does not permit me to pick up people at the airport. However, if 4-5 people want to share a cab to my house in Seattle (total cost should be just under $40) and arrive by 2:30 I can drive then to Ft. Flagler. I definitely have room for one suitcase for everyone and one HG (although you might have to hold it in your lap). I probably have more room that that but only if some but not all passengers have extra stuff. If anyone is planning to arrive before Tuesday and would like lodging at my house in Seattle, I can do that too. If you want to reach me by phone my 3 is 206-726-8611. Trish Lipscomb = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:55:51 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Forward from Arle Hi all, it seems that most people are in favor of a place to put pictures of list members on-line. My only concern about going with Yahoo is that I don't want to end up creating an alternative to the HG list and website that Cali and Alden have set up and keep going. I s*bscribe to a number of discussion groups and this has been, by far, the best one I have run across. If there were some way to tie a Yahoo site in with the present list while still keeping the HG list commercial free and reliable (despite the occasional down, it is more reliable than most), I would be game for it. I guess the question now is whether or not Alden and Cali would want something like this on their site (or link to something on another site). If not then the Yahoo thing might be the best (if less than ideal) option we have. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:06:41 +0100 From: michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com Subject: RE: [HG] Forward from Arle I agree with your point, Alden and Cali have spent a lot of time and work developing the website and HG list. I think that the only reason a Yahoo club was suggested was so that they wouldn't have to spend time uploading pictures / diagrams etc. I think we need their backing for the Yahoo club to be successful, but if they agreed, then maybe a link from their site to the Yahoo site. If Alden and Cali aren't happy with a Yahoo club, then I'm quite happy to set a page up that just has photos and diagrams etc up that can be linked to. At least in an instance like this, we wouldn't be held to the confines of Yahoo. Any more ideas? Snozz = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:16:42 -0500 From: Aaron and Carolyn Gritzmaker <gritz _at_ hpnc.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Forward from Arle While I was one who suggested a yahoo group site, I would REALLY prefer a private list where personal information isn't available to everyone. I did sign up for with the club, but was surprised that there is a public profile for each member where this isn't so with the yahoo groups pages. It's nice to be on an email list (HG) where there is no advertising and our email addresses, etc aren't up for grabs. I hope Cali and Alden will continue to host our list and perhaps it would be better to link to a site for photos, etc. Carolyn in Maypearl = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:42:32 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Forward from Arle I think that if Snozz or someone else creates a separate site for this there would be ways to make it appear as if it were on the hurdygurdy.com website. That way the content would come from a separate source that does not require Alden or Cali to take any time (or to open up any access to their site itself) and yet could look integrated in with the site. This might be the way to go on this. I think this would be the best way of reinforcing the identity of hurdygurdy.com and the list without having to make users go elsewhere for some content that should logically be with the list. If this would work out I could easily set up a page to do this, where on the HG website there would be one tiny page that pulls content from elsewhere. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:52:34 +0100 From: michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com Subject: RE: [HG] Forward from Arle I'm quite happy to set up a page that could be linked straight from hurdygurdy.com if that is what people want. Alden, Cali - I'm guessing you don't really want to spend your time publishing photos /diagrams etc. Would you be happy linking to a page I set up for this purpose? If people want to send images etc they can do and I'll set a page up. Mail to hg _at_ snozz.com and I'll sort out a page. Please note that I am only willing to do this if Alden and Cali don't object. I don't mind doing it at all, but don't want to compete with anything they are doing. Snozz = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:53:51 EDT From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Forward from Arle In a message dated 8/24/01 5:09:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com writes: I agree with your point, Alden and Cali have spent a lot of time and work developing the website and HG list. I think that the only reason a Yahoo club was suggested was so that they wouldn't have to spend time uploading pictures / diagrams etc. Please don't suggest this to Alden and Cali as I've already been waiting over a year and a half for my hurdy gurdy. I'm hoping to receive it by the end of this year and I would be a little upset beyond that. Jake __ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:26:36 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: [HG] tekerő plans expanded and updated Hi all, for those who were interested in the tekerő plans, I have just made some corrections and broken the big zip file into three files, each one containing PDFs of specific areas of the instrument. I have also added a complete drawing of the soundboard, bridges, and various other parts on the soundboard. This leaves only the back and sides of the body of instrument, the crank and wheel (and supporting pieces) and internal bracing left to add. These will likely follow in a few months. After all the drawings are complete I will go back through them and make any needed corrections (but again, the drawings here are pretty darn close to final). The URL is http://www.ttt.org/tekero Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:50:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bryan TOLLEY <Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr> Subject: [HG] Introduction My name is Bryan Tolley: Vielleur, luthier... I am English but I now live in the south west corner of France. I have been making and playing vielles for over 25 years. You can find my home page that includes my music and lutherie on http://members.aol.com/btolley568 You will also find out that my wife is a flamenco dancer and that I have a vielle playing marionette! I lived in L.A. during the eighties, and now, looking at the Olympic Musical Instruments site, I find a remarkable similarity between the small vielles that I used to make for children and the design of their 'Minstrel' hurdy-gurdy! I have a recording of traditional music on cassette. Mainly vielle, but with other traditional instruments including smallpipes and Irish pipes by Sean Folsom. Also, I play vielle, symphony and bagpipes on a CD by our medieval group 'Les Troubadours d'Aquitaine'. All details of these recordings can be found on the site mentioned above. I can be contacted at Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:10:53 EDT From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Recommendations of French trad dance music Whenever I visit a hurdy gurdy web site there is usually mention of French traditional dance music. Can anyone provide a list of recommended artists/bands and songs as well as printed music (online?) worth looking into? My band plays primarily Celtic and English trad folk songs but I am curious to learn about French dance music. Jake = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:16:21 EDT From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] was Forward from Arle, now apology After hitting the "send" key I read my post again and realized that I didn't add a smiley :-) face. My comment was meant to be humourous and I apologize if it could be misunderstood. Jake = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:13:09 -0700 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: [HG] List, web site etc. I am wondering if we could revisit this issue in a couple of months.? The Over the Water people here have just lost a VERY dear friend and are also in the last month of festival preparation. This may not be a good time for the Northwest members to get into details? Diana O'Neill Seattle, Wa. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:13:08 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] List, web site etc. Hi, (I assume that Diana's posting is in reference to the "rouges' gallery" of list members. If not, my apologies.) That's more or less why no one wants to burden Alden and Cali with the picture gallery bit and that Snozz (Snozz, what name do you go by?) has taken it over. I don't think it will be a bother for them if someone else does the page without asking for resources or needing anything other than a link from the HG webpage. As far as I know Snozz has already started building the thing and will let people add pictures as they get around to it. So if the NW contingent would prefer to wait for a few months to add pictures, etc., I think that is 100% OK. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:07:04 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Forward from Sheila Listmembers: I have to agree with Diana. Out of consideration for recent as well as = upcoming events, I think we should come back to this discussion after = the Over The Water Festival. Sheila Donoghue = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:43:04 -0700 From: Fiddlers <mdfiddler _at_ home.com> Subject: [HG] Re: on 8/26/01 1:03 PM, Bryan TOLLEY wrote: > Can anybody out there put me in touch with Chris Wright? I've tried using the > "overthewater" address, but every time it fails to get through. Thanks for > any help. > Bryan Tolley Chris and Luther are in Maine and will be back in Seattle Sept. 5th. In the meanwhile, you can try writing her at ccwright _at_ halcyon.com (I don't think she is reading email very often, but may be) or calling and leaving a message at her home phone 206-633-1026. She does call in for messages. Marjorie Fiddler = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:28:26 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Re: Bryan said: > I've tried using the "overthewater" address, but every time > it fails to get through. The overthewater server/forwarding system is experiencing some problems. I'm working on getting it fixed. In the meantime, please send all mail intended for an overthewater address to me, at hurdy _at_ silverlink.net, and I'll send it where it needs to go. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:37:15 -0700 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Our friend Pierre Imbert Diana's post made me realize that while I posted the announcement of Pierre's untimely demise, I have personally said very little about him, and what he meant to me. Pierre was a truly remarkable person, and an incredible vielle player. Cali and I first met him in 1996, when he was playing with Ad Vielle Que Pourra. We had been introduced by RT Taylor, who suggested contacting Pierre for hurdy-gurdy teaching. Cali and I wanted to put on the HG festival, and wanted a really good instructor, and RT suggested Pierre. We talked several times on the phone, and then went to meet him at a concert at the Tractor Tavern in Seattle. His virtuosity and zest for life were immediately apparent when we saw him onstage, and when we talked to him afterward, and we were sure that we had the right guy for the festival. Despite the tribulations of the first festival (a late bus, a dead cellphone, a closed restaurant, bad food at the site, a delayed ferry...) Pierre came through with flying colors, and gave his all for us. We couldn't have asked for a more dedicated instructor. And somewhere in there Pierre and I ended up sitting up late drinking an ancient bottle of port, and talking, and talking, and talking... I stood outside in the dark street with him as he smoked, and we talked with the rain falling on our heads... and I don't remember a thing we talked about, just that I felt a deep connection with this strange and opinionated Frenchman, who was both everything that I had expected a Frenchman to be, and nothing at all like what I had expected. We had lessons with Pierre that year, and he taught us the essence of the vielle - how to do the coup so that it actually worked, some little part of how to tease out that lyrical grace from the vielle that he seemed to achieve unconsiously, how to adjust and adjust and adjust some more until it sounded right... Everything I know about playing the vielle is built upon the foundation that Pierre gave me. Every year we had Pierre teach for the festival, and we would sit up late at night playing, eating French chocolate, drinking red wine, talking about politics and vielle playing and how proud he was of his children. Late one night at the 2000 festival Cali headed for bed, and I promised faithfully that I would be there in about 20 minutes. I arrived about an hour late, and she sleepily asked me where I'd been. I explained that there had been a jam session I couldn't resist: Pierre, Marcello, Cliff, RT, Marjy, Matt ... I think Juan and Sharon were there too. I wasn't a great player, and I hope to get better, but here I was with all these fabulous players, playing along, gaining new inspiration and confidence, finding that maybe I could play something cool that fit in with all the cool things they were playing. And ultimately, it was Pierre's instruction and support and hard work that made it all possible, that inspired us to do the festival again, to keep going through the rough spots, to bring together the largest collection of hurdy-gurdy players in North America, to build better vielles than ever. I tried to thank him, last year, at the end of the festival, but I fear that the words didn't portray the gratitude I feel in my heart. I hope he knew what I felt for him. So wherever you are, Pierre, I'm sure that your vielle is always in tune, and there are green grass and warm breezes, and an espresso stand just down the road. Bon vent, mon ami. Alden Hackmann = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:28:53 +0200 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Recommendations of French trad dance music Hello, what one recomends or find worth looking at can be very personaly, here I try to list some things and sites that can be a starting-point for your research. (do not try to play this music just from printed music, this is not possible since all the printed music is traditionaly simplyfied notation that does not show the way how this music should sound). there is one source that is the basis of most peoples (outside france) knowledge on central french tunes: The Massif Central Tune Books, compiled by Mel Stevens, published by Dragonfly Music, Newbiggin-by-the-Sea No. 1, 1987, ISBN 1-872277-05-5, (the pink one) No. 2, 1988, ISBN 1-872277-12-8, (the blue one) there are several online sources too. http://www.tradfrance.com/index.htm http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/homepage_abc.htm (my personal site, in german, just klick on the "Bourree" etc. links http://www.8ung.at/diatonica/abc_eng.html (just a start) there is the "tune finder" by John Chambers, which provides, besides the abc source, GIF , PDF, PNG, EPS, PS and MIDI transformations of abc music format sources in the net. For example, just do a search for a dance name and look through the files from which you get a result (The "G" link on the left side of the results leads to the original whole files, so you can see the URLs when scolling whith the mouse). Links for recordings and artists can be found at: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/disc.html http://chpc06.ch.unito.it/~ravera/folksy_links/folksy.html some sources for CD mail order are( not only french music): http://www.felmay.it/ ( http://www.felmay.it/francia.php3 ) http://www.keltiamusique.com/ http://www.gwerz.com/disques/index.htm http://www.digelius.com/ http://www.qbc.clic.net/~thirtybe/catalogue.html http://www.rufrecords.com/ http://www.elkarlanean.com/elkarlanean.cfm http://www.drone.se/english/ http://www.greenlinnet.com/ http://www.diatonie.de/ http://www.spielleute.de/ regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:44:50 +0100 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] Recommendations of French trad dance music Dear Jake, Dragonfly music in England have published at least 4 books of traditional French dance music details are on the bibliography section of www.hurdygurdy.com. Nicholas = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:44:47 +0200 (CEST) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] Our friend Pierre Imbert --- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> wrote: > So wherever you are, Pierre, I'm sure that your > vielle is always in tune, > and there are green grass and warm breezes, and an > espresso stand just > down the road. Bon vent, mon ami. I still can't realize that Pierre is no more with us . His friendship made me rich and I'm feeling so poor now. But I don't want to be sad: as far as I'm concerned he's just on tour somewhere else, playing for a bigger audience. Ciao Pierre and keep the rosin dry. ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:28:21 +0200 From: Pieter Lambrechts <pieter _at_ MailAndNews.com> Subject: [HG] Short intro Hi, I just joined this list, and since it seems to be the custom to introduce yourself here I go : My name is Pieter Lambrechts, I live in Leuven (Belgium) and I work for a Multimedia firm. I've been interested in folkmusic for (almost 15) years, although I wasn't actively involved (apart from the dancing off course). The Belgium folk scene has known a popularity boom the last couple of years and last july I went to a festival in Gooik (Belgium) where I saw an Hungarian band (Bokros) that announced a hurdygurdy and bagpipe camp in Hungary between the 23th and 26th of august. Two friends and I thought ... well let's go and have a look. So, we came back yesterday from the 'Téka Tabor'-camp in Hungary, where I started to learn to play the tekerö, the Hungarian hurdygurdy. I was completely new to the instrument, and it was very nice. A lot of nice people too !!! Beautiful weather and a great athmosphere. Too bad I had to leave early, cause I had to work today. That's it for my intro cheerio, Pieter.. --------------------------------------------- Pieter Lambrechts = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:53:51 -0700 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Our friend Pierre Imbert Thanks Alden for talking about Pierre. There has been a strange silence on the list, with the excetion of Nicholas O'Sullivan haiku, since the news about his death was posted. I think we were all to much in shock to say anything. I am writing now to acknowlege the grief I feel at the loss of a friend and teacher. He continues to be an inspiration to me, and many other I am sure, and will continue do so for future musicians, who may not even have seen their first hurdy gurdy yet. That' s more than most of us can hope to achieve in our life times. I shall miss him and want to add my voice to those who feel his loss. Juan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:20:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bryan TOLLEY <Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr> Subject: [HG] Search for Chris Wright Many thanks to all those who sent me information on how to contact Chris Wright. Now I can't go wrong! Bryan Tolley = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:34:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bryan TOLLEY <Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr> Subject: [HG] Sad loss of Pierre Dispite my recent addition to your mailing list, I too knew Pierre Imbert for many years. From his first visits to California during the 80's with Lo Jai to a very memorable march down the Champs Elysées in '89 playing vielle together for the French Bicentenial. It was very sad to read the news of his death. My sentiments follow those of Juan; Pierre gave me courage and inspiration in my music. In spite of his departure that inspiration will not cease. Bryan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:22:25 +0100 From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net> Subject: [HG] David Sloo Due to a hard drive failure, my address book has self destructed ! Can anyone give me an e-mail address for David H Sloo of Menlo Park Cal 94025 .A phone number would be fine. I would also like to have the address of R.T. and anyone else who thinks they should be in the new book!! Thanks Neil www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:59:00 -0400 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Recommendations of French trad dance music Great list, Simon! Two other sources for buying recordings here in the States are: The Wee Piper (http://www.vermontel.net/~theweepiper/) - lots of hurdy-gurdy music! Dusty Strings (http://www.dustystrings.com/shop/records.shtml) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:33:58 +0200 From: Ernst Kainzmeier <kainer _at_ chello.at> Subject: [HG] Pictures from Kremsmuenster festival Hello all! Maybe this is a little bit late and maybe there is no interest for but maybe one or another would like to view some nice shots from this year BordunMusik-festival (dronemusic-festival) in Kremsmuenster-abbey in Upper Austria at the end of July. The festival was performed by the "Commiteé Adalbert Stifter", and one of whose leading members is Simon Wascher. The pictures were photographed by my girlfriend Béatrice. There were HG-playing courses, so we both were there to learn how playing better our HG's, and for practice. One course was held by Matthias Loibner, and I met R.T. there. We had a lot of fun. It was very hot on this weekend and for the people who attended the dance-workshops it was very straining. There were also concerts in the evenings with outstanding musicians and groups from Hungary (Bela Szereny), Germany, Lithuania, France and Great Britain (John Swayne & Becky Price), and from Austria,of course. So if you want to have a look at the pictures go to: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1274885&a=13657372 The password is: Tassilo . You don't need any username. I would be happy if someone will visit the album and maybe would leave a comment in the guestbook. Regards! Ernst (Vienna/Austria) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:39:26 +0100 From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Recommendations of French trad dance music Hi Jake Try http://www.dragonflymusic.co.uk/ and follow the link near the bottom of the page to Dragonfly Music Publications. Towards the bottom of the page are some French dance music collections. Mike Gilpin's book, Dansons La Morvandelle has some lovely tunes, as do the Massif Central Bookss and Encyclopaedia Blowzabellica. Hope this helps. Ruthie |
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