Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - November 2001
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:49:51 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Trish Lipscomb
The Seattle beginners' group will meet again this Sun. at my house (1007
- 14th Ave. East) 10:00 to 12:00 or so, lunch to follow. Would any
advanced player be interested in providing some instruction? We can pay
an honorarium. Amount would probably depend on how many persons attend.
At this point the # is 3 - 5, but I should have a more exact count by
tomorrow.
Trish
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 01:11:00 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Bryan Tolley
Not having looked at my hurdy-gurdy.com mail-box for a couple of weeks I was
quite surprised to find that not only did I have over 300 e-mails to dig
through, but also that one of the current topics seemed to be solid bodied
electric instruments; something that's been amusing me for quite some time.
Richard Taylor (Hello Richard) mentioned that I'd made one in the 80's that
didn't amount to much. Well, thanks for your observation Richard, but
actually the one you probably remember was a prototype with a fibre-glass
shell body and a thick maple soundboard. When completed the instrument
actually had some acoustic properties that were too hard to ignore, and since
I'd been spending much time on creating an attractive instrument, the
gorgeous prototype ended up as an electro-acoustic vielle all black lacquer
and chrome plating, with a three spoke wheel made of an exotic satellite
material. ..\AOL 6.0\electro2.jpg
The electric solid body followed soon after and was smaller, more compact.
An aluminium wheel with perspex/maple banding, a thick chunky ebony keyboard
with an inverse curve and yes, a solid body from two slices of 1" thick
figured maple and a mahogany core to allow enough depth for the wheel.
Teflon bearings, steels strings, humbucker pick-ups.
Well, I'm not going to explain all the details of my electric vielle. This
instrument was made in the late 80's and perfected in the early 90's after
I'd moved to France and got my atelier re-established. However, it is far
more than just a routine electric vielle. Perhaps those of you who search
for an escape for the hurdy-gurdy might find the following information about
my vielle's function rather interesting.
First of all, my vielle has no drones. I feel that these greatly limit the
styles of music that can be played, so I didn't include them when I designed
the instrument. As an afterthought they were included by means of a simple
foot keyboard so that the drones can be added and changed (or stopped) by the
player without taking his hands off the instrument. The foot keyboard is
basically a one octave bass synthesiser that is connected to the vielle via a
jack and cable and it is played in the same manner as the foot keyboard of
a church organ.
The "trompette" can be played in several manners: First of all it can be
played "traditionally" as a buzzing drone; but here we have a drone creeping
into the picture again. Secondly, due to a certain electronic circuit
mounted within the vielle's body and by the manner in which I've got my chien
pick-up mounted it's possible to replace the "buzz" of the chien by any sound
from a percussion synthesiser (that's also mounted within the vielle). For
example, it is possible to insert a clap of hands whenever the chien is
sounded without any sound of a drone. To eliminate the drone allows the
vielle to play with other instruments in any key, to modulate from one key to
another without limit. This is liberty for the vielleur!
A further development of my vielle is the utilisation of the pulse from the
chien to accent the melody. Here, the "buzz" signal is taken and reproduced
as a slight amplification of the output signal from the chanterelle pre-amp.
Every "coup de poignet" the melody sounds louder. This effect adds rhythm to
the melody (again without any drone) and the overall tonality of the
hurdy-gurdy is not lost.
I tried several methods before I arrived at a reasonable way to separate the
"buzz" from the drone; it wasn't easy!
That's about it. My design is basically just a chanterelle and a chien, with
a system behind it that eliminates the drone from the trompette. How you
portray the chien is up to you
Bryan Tolley
P.S. Thanks to everyone for their formulas for liquid rosin.
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 01:14:00 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Fwd: Amplification (from Theo Bick)
>
>Dear HG List,
>
>I have an alto electro-accoustic HG from Wolfgang. The only amps I have to
>plug it into are an old Fender Champ and a Sonny Jr. tube amp set up for
>harmonica. The harmonica amp is the size of a Bassman with four 7"
>speakers and it actually sounds OK with the HG. I don't have any reverb or
>other effects.
>
>What setups are other people using? Some of the HG recordings I've
>listened to seem to have some effects but I don't know what they are
>using. I went to my local guitar store here in Austin and plugged into
>some of their equipment. The country western types were quite interested
>in the sound. Someone requested "Faded Love". But I didn't find anything
>that sounded good enough to take home.
>
>I guess I have these questions:
>
>How do you get more volume without changing the quality of the sound? Can
>I just plug straight into a PA system?
>
>What effects equipment have folks used for moderate altering of the sound?
>I think I would like a little reverb and perhaps just a bit of distortion.
>
>And just to close out an old thread, I never did come up with a liquid
>rosin mixture that worked as well as the one I got from Wolfgang at St.
>Chartier and right now I am no longer working on it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Theo
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:57:45 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Reply-To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
Subject: [HG] From Neil Brook
Hi Roy.
The only way to achieve a quiet gurdy is to reduce the size of the body -
the "Bosch" model made to the scale of the painting can only fit a 4.5 "
wheel as the body depth comes out at 3 ". The small wheel results in less
circumference per revolution - effectively, it bows the strings more slowly.
The reduced resonance from the small body adds to the lack of volume.
The Lambert may look small but is far from a quiet instrument.
Fitting a curved back is an interesting thought, I would expect it to have
little effect on the tone and possibly increasing the volume slightly.
D/G tuning tends to be most successful on lute backs so possibly the
different reflective characteristics of the rounded back has something to do
with that.
Have you tried attaching mutes to the bridges of your Dewit ? Clothes pegs
will give an idea of their effectiveness, lead strip can be glued on for a
more aesthetic approach.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:09:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] string tension
Bruno:
Unfortunately our webpage doesn't show the strings we carry yet. ;-( But
we're working on that. If there's a particular string you are looking
for, let us know offlist and we'll tell you if we have it and what the
price is. We stock all the "standard" strings, and we've started to carry
a wider variety for more unusual situations.
For string information, our business/home email address is better:
hurdy _at_ silverlink.net
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:27:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Neil Brook
Thanks for your comments, Neil.
> Have you tried attaching mutes to the bridges of
> your Dewit ? Clothes pegs
> will give an idea of their effectiveness...
Good idea. This is exactly what I used to do when
practicing the violin in the dorm. Later, I got a
wooden mute that just pushes down on the top of the
bridge. This offers a splendid oppertunity to make a
mute punch a hole in it, and dangle it off the
instrument. So far I only have the wheel cover a litle
bag for cotton and rosin, and a tourne a gauche, never
really seemed like enough... ;-)
Thanks, Roy Trotter
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Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Curvature on Lambert copies
Thanks Alden for the good comments. They verify my
thinking, which is not surprizing given that almost
everything I know about it I learned from you two, and
Marcello, and Henry.
--- Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> wrote:
> Point 2) We were pleasantly surprised to find that
> the tone improved and
> the volume increased. You can always
> string it lighter if it's
> too loud (up to a point, anyway...) ;-)
Improved tone is always good. There seems to be a lot
of string breakage on the higher d string anyway, so
lighter stringing appears to be indicated. Actually, I
LIKE loud, I just don't want it AS loud.
>
> If you were to curve the back, I'd recommend keeping
> the height of the
> body at the centerline the same as shown on the
> plan, and curving the
> edges of the back up from that point. (Did that
> make sense?)
It makes sense to me, I think that's what I said with:
> > If one did curve the back; I *think* the critical
> > dimension would be the depth at the bridge...
but that's what I meant anyway.
I'll go ahea and plan for that. I really, really need
to finish the one I've been at for the past 2 1/2
years. (The other of the two that I was "making
simultaneously".) Then I have another semi-Dewit in
the works. (7 strings, the headstock more like your
Minstrel, and as a separate piece so I can jig-sand
the braces.)
But I have some nice wood I may go ahead and cut out
for the Lambert. I reckon I'll stick as close to the
plan (except the back) as possible so we can have a
basis for comparison.
Thanks again.
Roy Trotter
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Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 20:34:43 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Curvature on Lambert copies - D/G issue...
Hi Guys!
Alden, you wrote:
>As to what effect all of this will have with respect to the tuning, i.e.
>D/G or G/C, I don't have a clear picture yet. We make some adjustments to
>the instrument if we intend to tune it in D/G, but any instrument we've
>ever switched from G/C to D/G has sounded good, so I'd be interested to
>know what others' experience is here.
Now I've been wondering about this for awhile, and this seems like a good
time to ask!
R.T. told me that some of the European builders he knows of make certain
choices during construction of instruments specifically for the D/G, or
Bourbonnais, tuning. When I pressed him on the subject, he wasn't able to
tell me what they were. Now I see, Alden, that you guys make some
adjustments for this tuning.
What are builders of D/G instruments doing to accommodate this tuning, and
what are the desired effects of these unique construction features?
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
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Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:56:07 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] A humorous diversion...
My partner Anne gave a concert last night at a venue which provided sound
equipment and an operator. She is rather sensitive to loud noises like
feedback, and mentioned this to the operator after numerous "blasts" of
feedback during the sound check. She was told very matter-of-factly:
"Well, dear..."
I'll bet THAT went over well
"You'd better take off your earrings, then. It's those metal earrings
which cause feedback, you know..."
This is a true story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
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Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:36:27 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] A humorous diversion...
I'll remember that for next time I play out. Oh, BTW, how about clip
ons?
Just kidding :-)
Jake
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Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:26:39 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] A humorous diversion...
>"You'd better take off your earrings, then. It's those metal earrings
>which cause feedback, you know..."
Hmm, that explains why I never get feedback... ;-)
What does he tell the guys who aren't wearing earrings?
Alden, who knows where feedback really comes from.
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Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:36:59 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: [HG] HG workshop for children and more
Hi list,
right at the beginning of January (2nd to 6th) there will be held workshops
at the Burg Fürsteneck (www.burg-fuersteneck.de/folk) which might be
interesting for some of you or your friends.
- HG workshop and ensemble playing for children and younsters with Petra
Kühmichel
- HG workshop for adults with Fredi Pitzschel
- Nyckelharpa with Annette Osann
- Dance music/ ensemble playing with Rafael Daun
- Schäferpfeife and french bagpipes with Lissa Nierhoff
- Northumbrian Smallpipes with Uwe and Rosalba Seitz
- Diatonic accordeon with Walter Simons
- Dances of Franken (live music) with Horst and Barbara Grimm
If you don´t want to participate you`re also welcome as a guest (contact the
Burg Fürsteneck/ Karsten Evers: Bildung _at_ fuersteneck.de) or me.
There`ll be concerts and dance in the evening.
all the best
Petra
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:37:25 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Curvature on Lambert copies
Hi Roy
I'm sorry to be so late, but I've been in my warmest
room for some days because of a terrible cold....
Some warning:
1) I know that plans, and they are "wrong" here and
there (the chanterelles run too far from keys, and
wheel, keyboard, bridges don't match perfectly).
I made my copies from two "real" Lambert (in Florence
music academy) and they both were the same as the
plans, but they were "right"....)
2) the back is FLAT (even in my "sleeping beauty").
3) that Lamber is a quiet gurdy if you make it as the
original ONLY, I mean: using the SAME wood for the
soundboard (that is 3.5 - 4 mm Cedrella, a kind of
Spanish cedar) and the same bracing shape (Lambert
gurdies have a BIG brace under the main bridge, with a
part protunding just under the bridge...that's a kind
of "mute").
If you make a curved back you're going to change the
internal volume of the body, so you're going to change
the "color" of the sound (and the pitch of the
"noises" too, since an "usual" Lambert guitar body is
"tuned" somewhat between F# and G - at A = 440.....so,
between F and F# or even lower in baroque tuning).
That Lambert is an EXCELLENT baroque CG gurdy but is
NOTa good D gurdy (I changed the tuning in my first
one - Sleeping beauty's mother... - and it sounded
like a s...t).
> Now that I've thoroughly confused myself <g>, can
> anyone lead me out of this maze? ...or at least
> offer
> a hint?
My suggestion is: find a D gurdy playing the way you
like, and then make a copy :o)
Your "baroque" friend
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:55:08 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] wheel - bridge distance
Hi List
As you may know I'm a "baroque" fun, so I've (almost)
always made "baroque" copies only, and they (almost)
always sounded the way I wanted.
Usually baroque HGs have a wheel rim width and a
distance between wheel and bridge less than "usual".
I perfectly know that different distance and wheel
width may change the sound (that's why they invented
the bow :o) but I'm curious about the real effects.
Did you make practical reasearch about it?
What is you usual wheel width, and what is the
distance between chanterelles' bridge and wheel right
edge?
Did you try to change these measeres? and what
happened?
(of couse I'm speaking about usual 345 - 350 mm
vibrating lenght gurdies).
Thanks
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:28:57 -0600
From: Aaron and Carolyn Gritzmaker <gritz _at_ hpnc.com>
To: hg <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] Re: Lambert Plans
Hi Roy,
Marcello's message about the Lambert plans reminded me of a few things.
When I made my instrument I did make several changes (aside from the obvious
ones in the shape). Since the soundboard is the same length as the plans
(though more guitar shaped), I followed the keybox exactly as the plans and
found that the lower "c" key was not in the proper place and had to change
that by moving the hole for it back towards the "b" by about 3/16". It's
been so long that I can't really remember, but I *think* that I just turned
the key over and it fit okay rather than cutting a new one. That was the
only one I had to fix. The bridge had to be shifted a bit, sorry I can't
remember which way, but I think towards the tailpiece... I *think* that
there is information in the book that came with the plans on how to find
this measurement. Try to figure this out before you glue it on, because it
is definitely no fun to change it afterwards! And the chantrelles needed to
be shifted towards the back of the key box (which is why the holes for the
strings in the peg head on my instrument aren't exactly right, and the
bridge has had the slots changed). Other than the petite bourdon being way
too close to the keys (on my instrument), I can't think of any other
adjustments I had to make, though there were bound to be some more.
Of course, for a REALLY quiet instrument, you could always build a
symphonie! <g>
I don't know that any one on the list is interested, but I'd be happy to
email a picture of my instrument to anyone interested. Is there a site to
post pictures? I seem to remember that someone was setting something up
before everything seemed to go to h--- earlier this fall.
Carolyn
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:20:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Curvature on Lambert copies
Ah. Maestro, salaam, (bow and scrape)<g>
It was mostly due to my admiration of "Sleeping
Beauty" that I wanted to tackle the project. She's not
as loud as most, but held her own at the "Candlelight
Concert" in Port Townsend, a couple of years ago. (A
side note for those who couldn't make it: During the
course of the OTW festival that year, Marcello and the
late Pierre Imbert had a concert at a local
establishment. There had been a storm earlier in the
day, the power was out, so all the lighting was from
candles, mostly concentrated on the stage. The place
was packed with Festivalites and local residents, but
the instrument was clearly audible, and held her own
even in duet with another HG and a 'cello. ...That was
one of my most memorable evenings ever.)
--- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote:
> I made my copies from two "real" Lambert (in
> Florence
> music academy) and they both were the same as the
> plans, but they were "right"....)
I haven't used formal plans much, but they seem to be
pointers rather than absolute specifics. Every thing
I've ever made required *some* adjustment.
Unfortunately, any kind of HG, VL, Ghironda, tekero,
or Symphonie is an extremely rare bird in these parts,
so I only get to study artifacts at the festival. (See
below)
>
> 2) the back is FLAT (even in my "sleeping beauty").
I thought I remembered that from the picture you had
on your website (I don't see it lately), but it also
looked more graceful than most of the guitar-shaped
instruments. When I actually had the pleasure of
viewing *Herself* in person, I didn't know enough
about the subject to check details.
>
> 3) that Lambert is a quiet gurdy if you make it as
> the
> original ONLY...
I remember we had a lot of serious discussion about
this on MIMF, particularly the 6mm limewood linings.
> If you make a curved back you're going to change the
> internal volume of the body, so you're going to
> change
> the "color" of the sound...
That's the other side of the issue,what I was going on
about "total volume of the air chamber". I'm just a
psuedo-egghead, but I have some friends that would
revel in the puzzle. Let's see what they come up
with...
> That Lambert is an EXCELLENT baroque CG gurdy but is
> NOT a good D gurdy ....
Oh my..., time for a rethink. I hear enough s..t at
work ;-). My thinking was that having the wrong
geometry on the sound chamber would result in a less
efficient, i.e. quieter instrument. I completely
forgot about tone an quality.
> My suggestion is: find a D gurdy playing the way you
> like, and then make a copy :o)
Given the penchant for CG tuning on this continent, it
seems unlikely that this will happen. I'm currently
working on a subtle plan to get rich in Luthierie
<ROTFL> and write off my trips to Europe as a business
expense.(chuckle> Until then, I'm afraid I'm stuck
with R&D, abetted by email. Still, things could be
much worse: Carolyn Gritzmaker, from whom I got the
plans (thanks), is within a 1/2 a day trip from me,
and some of the finest minds in the field are here on
the list.
The good news is that I really hadn't intended to
launh into this project immediately
>
> Your "baroque" friend
I am indeed honored
Your "let's stick that over there & see what happens"
friend,
Roy Trotter (Springtown, Tx USA)
P.S
> I'm sorry to be so late, but I've been in my warmest
> room for some days because of a terrible cold....
>
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
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Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:44:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: Lambert Plans
Hey Carolyn,
Thanks for lending me the plans and the advice here. I
was mostly hoping to get some general design ideas to
improve my current projects. I'll get with you later
for details.
--- Aaron and Carolyn Gritzmaker <gritz _at_ hpnc.com>
wrote:
> Of course, for a REALLY quiet instrument, you
> could always build a
> symphonie! <g>
My biggest problem with symphonie is that I'm too old
and feeble to keep that tiny wheel going fast enough
to get any tone out of it. It's pretty well documented
that we really don't know what was going on in those
"black boxes" and even the relative size of the
exterior is pretty subjective. It wouldn't be
difficult to re-engineer so the wheel diameter is an
inch larger. Alden and Cali (hi there) are turning out
some nice sounding symphonies. I was thinking about
making one to address the same sort of questions
Marcello (sensei) was raising about wheel distance.
Thanks again, Roy T.
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 00:39:53 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] wheel - bridge distance
Hello,
to my expirience, like on bowed instruments there is a ideal partition
of the wheel for every vibrating string lenght and therefore pitch. The
(fixed) distance between the wheel and the bridge makes that there is a
point on the keyboard where it sounds best. By shifting the wheel (the
distance) this optimum moves up and down the keyboard. If the wheel is
far from the bridge lower notes sound better, if the distance is little
the higher notes sound better, if the distance is to little low notes
tend to jump to flageolet too easily if the distance is to far the
higher notes lose too much sound and are hard to intonate.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 01:17:42 GMT
From: Peter Saracino <PSARACIN _at_ flemingc.on.ca>
Subject: [HG] Introduction and question from Canada
Hello all,
I joined the list a fews days ago and feel like an
interloper, since the discussion is at such a high and
technical level. My musical interests are not devoted to any
one instrument or genre but I do play acoustic guitar and
tend to gravitate towards English and Canadian folk music. I
would like to learn how to play the hurdy gurdy but am not
sure how to make connections here in southern Ontario. Can
anyone on the list suggest both some introductory reading
(particularly the different types of hurdy gurdy)and some
CDs? Also, I need advice on how to buy a "first" hurdy
gurdy. So far, what I have found on the Web suggests
avoiding a cheap or used model, but spending $2,000 or more
(in US dollars) is way beyond my means.
Thanks in advance.
Peter Saracino
Apt. 1104
2199 Walker Ave.
Peterborough, ON
Canada K9L 1T8
phone: (705) 745-952
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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:09:22 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and question from Canada
Hello and welcome, Peter. There are many of us on the list who aren't
builders, so don't panic on seeing all the techno stuff that gets posted by
those poor afflicted.
If you're talking U.S. dollars, there are good first instruments to be had
for closer to $1000. The one I'm familiar with is the three-string Minstrel
by Olympic Musical Instruments. It is smaller and, in general, quieter than
larger instruments with more strings, but it has standard fingering
distances, a chromatic keyboard, and a trompette. I bought mine for travel,
but also find it balances my singing voice nicely in acoustic settings where
my loud Hubbert volksgurdy would squash me like a bug.
I'm pretty sure there are other choices in this price range, and hope others
familiar with them will chime in.
Cheers,
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:43:32 -0500
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Toronto Hurdy Gurdy Day (thing...)
Greetings and best wishes to you all,
My appologies to those of you who have been asking for details about the
Toronto HG event on the 11 of November. I've been terribly busy of late, the
sad result being that I've not had time to answer inquiries or get too
involved in the orgaization of the event. I have been reading, though! (Theo
Bick, I have thoughts on your quirey and I'll get back to you - I too have a
Weichselbaumer. Nice to hear of another on the continent!)
For now here's what I know:
Hurdy Gurdy Gala (sic)
Sunday 11th November, 1 - 11pm. At the TRANZAC Club, 292 Brunswick Avenue,
Toronto (between Bathurst and Spadina, just South of Bloor).
1 - ? All you ever wanted to know about the hurdy gurdy...and more: informal
questions and answers, discussions, inspections, etc.
2 - 5 Dances from Central France with Karen Bennett: bourees, scottisches,
mazurkas etc.
5 - 7 Jam/Session: HGs, fiddles, pipes, accordions...djembe free zone, damn
it!
Flying Cloud Folk Club Concert and Dance
8 - 11ish Part 1: Fairly informal performaces by Toronto's HG
types: Sandra Spencer, Trish Postle, Mike Franklin, Catherine Keenan, Andrea
Haddad, Ben Grossman, and he same as "loud", I got a
theory about it (See below), but on top of that,
thanks a lot for remind me that evening: I keep the
memory of it in a special place of my heart.
I made CG gurdies only, and when I tried to tune them
in D (actually it happened not so often) I always had
poor results (I'm speaking about "sound", loudness is
not involved now).
I played several good D gurdy and they all were "big"
instruments, so I got the idea that a "good" D gurdy
must be a "big" gurdy (but this is just a sensation).
I'm sure that loudness and dimentions don't run
together, I mean: if you want you can make a big,
quiet instrument or a little, loud instrument.
A thick soundboard, a big brace under a thick bridge
and so on make it possible the making of a big, quiet
instrument.
Here's a smart question: why the hell shoul I make a
big instrument if I need a quiet one?
1) Because I like "that" sound!
2) Because I got lot of belly to hide behind trhe
gurdy.....
And now the theory.
There is a similar theory in studio recording rooms,
that is called LEDE (Live End Dead End).
According to this theory you can decide the "sound" of
the recording by having some walls acoustically "dead"
and other walls "live".
In my opinion it's the same for gurdies, just turn
walls into different gurdy parts.
Some gurdies are LELE: when you turn the handle,
several parts of the gurdy vibrates.
Some gurdies are LEDE: only the soundboard vibrates,
all the rest not (more or less...)
Some gurdies are DEDE: "nothing" seems to vibrate, but
they "sound" the same.
Some gurdies are LEDE upside down: all thing but
soundboard vibrate.....well...put them into the
fireplace....
LELE gurdies play loud, but if they are not WELL
made, part of the sound is just "jamming noise", so
they "seem" to play loud.
Good baroque gurdies are LEDE so they are not so loud,
nevertheless they are "audible" because the different
components of the sound are not "jammed" in noise and
are clearly separate.
DEDE gurdies can "sound" really good (in my opinion)
expecially when they are plugged.
You can have a LELE, LEDE or DEDE gurdy by balancing
the thickness and the kind of wood of different
parts.
It's possible to have strange results:
for exemple I made a copy of a little (really little)
lute bodied Fleury gurdy, but I made it in different
wood and thickness than the original.
Well, this little gurdy sounds far most loud than lot
of bigger gurdies, and the original was a really quiet
baroque instrument.
This post is becoming too long....I'm sorry...If you
like I can write another post about Valentin
Clastrier's DEDE gurdy: I had Valentin in my house for
a lunch a week ago and I'm still shoked.....
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Thanks Roy, you know what?.....in Italian "recovery"
is the action you do when you move from your own house
to the nearest hospital because you're getting worse :o
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 07:55:19 -0800
From: Joan L. D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: Bosch progress and problemos
Hi Marcello. Hope all is well at your house. Here in Seattle things have
been hectic and due to the amount of time I have spent helping my aging
mother is Spokane I haven't been working on my Bosch.
Last night I went down to the shop and started looking over the situation.
So far I have made the mould and carved the blocks for the two ends. There
are a few problems.
Neither nor the mould are exactly perfect.
The mould is almost perfect, but has a few places where it is either wider
or more narrow than the template. Recently someone told me that the
finished instrument will only be as good as the mould. Is this true and if
so, should I make a new mould. ARRRRGGG!
Next, the blocks don't fit perfectly into the cut outs in the mould for
them, but they are flush with the sides of the mould and I figure I can fill
in with something like wax to make them steady. Do you think this will be
OK?
Finally, the block for the end where the sides fit into the little grooves
is not perfect in the groove area. I made an error in cutting and shaping
the groove area so the groove is deeper at one side than the other. The
groove itself is level where the end of the side piece fits up to it, but I
accidentally cut away about a 1/8 of an inch more on one side than the
other. Do you think that will be terribly noticible in the finished
instrument? I thought I might be able to even it out before finishing the
box, by either filling with something like a plastic bondo or cutting a
narrow strib of maple and gluing it in so the curve area looks even. What
do you think?
If you are confused by my attempts a describing the problems, let me know
and I will try to get some pictures and send them. My biggest proble seems
to be in controling tools. :-((.
I read Roy's post to you and remember that wonderful candel light concert as
well. It was so special. I will always remember you and Pierre playing
that night.
Say hi to Gloria, Joan
Joan L. D'Andrea
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:46:53 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or not loud? (WAS: Lambert ......)
Marcello,
Yes please, when you have time, write about Valentin's hurdy gurdy and his
playing I got my first hurdy gurdy in 1984 and after trying to learn and
busk for a few months I went to Valentin's house ,"Gue de la Pierre", camped
out for a few days and took a "stage" with about 6 other people. He taught
us no tunes. First we did exercises, stretches and meditations, to prepare
to play. He considered this the most important part. Then we did just the
right hand for the entire morning, learning the various rhythms. The rest of
the day was devoted (I mean devoted in the original sense of the word) to
the modes, and not just the common ones but others that I have not heard
since. The evening was for improvisation. Valentin was precise with his diet
and daily routine, everything seemed chosen for one purpose, actualization
through hurdy gurdy.
Recently I was listening to a vinyl recording Valentin did in in around
1982, "Vielle a Roue Imaginaire". It is quite amazing and still accessible
for me as opposed to later works. He already had the coup de 6 and 8
mastered with very sharp, distinct accents, not blurry or faint. Still today
I haven't heard anyone else do that. (Also, I hadn't listened to any 33 RPM
record for years, only CDs and it was more alive somehow)
So I am interested in how your story and how you were shocked.
Regards,
Theo
>
> If you
> like I can write another post about Valentin
> Clastrier's DEDE gurdy: I had Valentin in my house for
> a lunch a week ago and I'm still shoked.....
> =====
> Marcello Bono
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:11:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and question from Canada
Hello Peter and welcome,
An interloper, in my view, would be somebody that
spent a lot of time on something completely off topic.
Somebody that doesn't know much, and came here to
learn something would require a different word:
"lurker", perhaps, or maybe "roytrotter".
The only reason I know what I do is because of the
people on this list. As a wannabe hurdy-gurdymaker, I
can't pass up the access so some of the finest minds
in the field. (There are other minds, but I haven't
had the pleasure, so I can't speak for them.) ;->
I'm a "gurdymaniac": a hard-core fanatic completely
fascinated by every aspect of this instrument. My pet
aspect is luthierie, but I'm a little bit frustrated
the brevity of discussion on playing topics. So, if
anyone is annoyed by my cluttering your inbox with my
monomania, I'm a tad miffed that you don't share your
own more often.
> I would like to learn how to play the hurdy gurdy
but
> am not
> sure how to make connections here in southern
> Ontario.
I'm sure by now you've seen Ben's posting on the
"Hurdy Gurdy Day (sic)". That's probably about as fine
an exposure as you'd be able to get anywhere. Wish I
could be there <sigh>.
> I need advice on how to buy a "first" hurdy
> gurdy. So far, what I have found on the Web suggests
> avoiding a cheap or used model, but spending $2,000
> or more
> (in US dollars) is way beyond my means.
Finally, a(n almost) non-luthierie topic that I feel
competent to answer:
Here are my credentials:
1) I built my first for about $630 (US) over a period
of 6 months. I had all the wood and most of the tools,
and some experience as a Luthier. I credit several
experts (they are all list members) with the fact that
it even plays at all. It was the second HG I'd even
seen and the first I got to touch. "Even plays at all"
sums it up pretty well.
2) I just bought an 8-string Siorat lute-back for a
mere pittance. This "pittance", I predict, will compel
me to live on beans and wild berries for the next
couple of years, but I know this instrument, and the
previous owner, an am convinced that it's worth every
penny -and quite a bit more.
So, go to the "Hurdy Gurdy Day (sic)" and get
acquainted with the people and their instruments, and
keep in touch with them. You'll get to hear some great
music, meet some very fine people, and develop a sense
of what's what. Sooner or later somebody's gonna need
to unload a real treasure. (It's not like a computer,
the current software *will* run on an antique.) If you
know "what's what", you can judge the quality of the
offer. If you know the people, they'll help you.
I TRULY, TRULY dis-recommend buying (new or used) or
building, without having an educated shop-around.
Having been there, I tend to feel pity for anyone that
doesn't have a Hurdy-Gurdy, and will help all I can.
Proximity may be a problem <g>.
Roy Trotter
P.S. I do not intend to discourage anyone from
building. I do encourage *non-player first-time
builders* to pipe up so we can see about getting you
some exposure to a decent instrument.
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:21:19 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or (valentin)? (WAS: Lambert ......)
Concerning Valentin,
he is enegmatic.
Two subjects please if I may:
With his diet, what did you see? Do you mean unusual foods? Pray tell.
(I'm a vegitarian for 12 years)
And religiously, what did you may be notice a tiny bit?
I'll mention, though it must be common knowledge, that his Herese CD is
dedicated to the church at Cathars.
I'm religious, by the way, as I open that line up here, but Valentin seem to
personify intrigue. I'm interested to know more.
Thank you!!
from, jim w.
Maine
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:20:40 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] loud or not loud? (WAS: Lambert ......)
Hi Marcello,
really interesting your thoughts about HGs.
I`m no builder so I don`t know too much about what makes HGs sound the way
they do. But I always wondered why my electroacoustic Siorat HG sounds
better in D than in G. You saw and heard the instrument in summer and it`s
not as large as the bourbonnais HGs in D and it`s not loud.
Propably there are "walls" within the instrument for that the balance of the
different strings while amplifying is possible.
My baroque Louvet HG is much smaller and much louder for the whole
instrument is resonating (thin soundboard and so on). But it`s not the
loudness of the instrument what makes it fascinating for me. It`s the sound,
the technical possibilities of interpretation and the facility of
playing....
To Valentin Clastrier: I like the sound of his HG and I think it`s
tremendous what he developed on the HG; all the techniques of the right hand
and the virtuosity of the left hand and last not least all his crazy
compositions.
But I was shocked hearing him interpretate a Vivaldi (Chedeville) Sonata.
I think what instrument you play, depends not only on the quality of an
instrument, but on what music you want to play.
all the best
Petra
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:40:05 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] loud or (valentin)? (WAS: Lambert ......)
Hi Jim,
I don`t know whether it`s really important what Valentin is eating or what
religion he clings to...
But I organized a workshop with him last year and some concerts the last
years and I may answer some of your questions:
he didn`t practice yoga with the participants of the workshop
he didn`t eat macrobiotic food: he smoked, drank coffee and sometimes ate
meet...
he didn`t talk about religion to the participants
We learned a bit about his music.
It seems to me, that he likes to prove or try and discover different things,
not only as musician, but also as a human being.
greetings Petra
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:52:39 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or (valentin)? (WAS: Lambert ......)
Hello Jim W.
Here is what I know.
> Concerning Valentin,
> he is enegmatic.
> Two subjects please if I may:
> With his diet, what did you see? Do you mean unusual foods? Pray tell.
> (I'm a vegitarian for 12 years)
No I don't mean unusual foods, just simple food. I am not sure if he was a
vegetarian but I did get that impression. Also Pierre once told me that
Valentin rose before dawn every day.
> And religiously, what did you may be notice a tiny bit?
> I'll mention, though it must be common knowledge, that his Herese CD is
> dedicated to the church at Cathars.
> I'm religious, by the way, as I open that line up here, but Valentin seem
to
> personify intrigue. I'm interested to know more.
I don't know if religious would be the correct word. Devoted might be
better. Here is a little story: We were doing our exercises and meditations
before we were to take out our instruments. Some people may have been
questioning (not out loud but to ourselves)
why we were spending time doing this when we could be playing. Valentin said
something like "Anyone can play the hurdy gurdy if that is all you want to
do". (How do I remember that after all these years?) So for me he seemed to
be one of those dedicated, single minded people, who `could have been great
at many things but decided on the hurdy gurdy. But the music was not the end
in itself , it was only a means to achieve another goal, just as his other
daily routines were a means to achieve the same goal. What was the goal?
Perhaps to discover his destiny and fulfill it.
So the atmosphere was I suppose a bit religious in that I felt the same way
I might feel around other sincere ,committed people that we meet rarely, and
who are willing to sacrifice everything for their ideal.
That's pretty much all I know about it.
Regards,
Theo
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:36:55 -0800
From: Damien Hess <dhess _at_ apexmail.com>
Subject: [HG] animator looking for hg player
Hello!
My name is Damien Hess, I am a student at the Emily Carr Institute
of Art and Design in Vancouver, BC Canada. I am looking to collaborate
with a hurdy gurdy player on the soundtrack to my grad film for my
Animation Major, BMA.
Let me explain what I have in mind in more detail. My grad
reqirement is to direct and produce an animated short film of
approximately 3 mins in length. This will be my years work as
I am doing most everything myself. A director has to be a
dictator; however, I enjoy my work most when I can receive and
provide constructive criticism within a team.
My story is a poetic tale of an elderly man whom, struggling
in his last days, finds identity and solace with a neglected
fig tree; an eloquent look at a symbiotic relationship between
man and nature.
The themes that I will be exploring are that of humankinds
desire to feel needed, mans' attitude toward nature, and mortality.
The central idea being that my character (tentatively named Knut)
will sacrifice his time to aid the survival of the tree, and in
doing so, cheat death by attaining union with the eternal (in
the form of the vegetable world). The man's spirit lives on
and the tree is a gift to the world for future generations.
I have completed the majority of the preproduction stage and
am moving into creating my puppets, sets and props.
My visual approach will be a mix of mediums. The primary
being stopmotion 3D puppet animation (think Wallace and
Gromitt - no computer animation). Integrated through digital
compositing with the 3D figures of man and tree will be live
action, 2D paper cutout animation, classical (handdrawn)
elements, and shadow puppet animation.
There will be no dialogue or narration. Sound effects and
music will take the lead in accenting actions, aiding
transitions from scene to scene, and fleshing what is not
shown visually.
Now would be a good time to explain why I wish to have the
hurdy gurdy as the primary instrument in my sound design.
I have Scottish blood, my girlfriend is Hungarian; I love
the instrument for its sound as well as for its connection
to my roots. The instrument is so versatile; combining the
sounds of several instruments, melody and rhythm. It is
unique, will get noticed and plant itself in the minds of
my audience. Oh yeah, and the drone. Where else can you get
lyricism contrapundant to percussive structure and an
underlying wall of sound in one humble box?
Stylistically, I imagine making use of an Eastern European
folk sound, with an emphasis on the buzzing of the sympathetic
strings.
My story makes use of symbolism and elements of myth from a
wide range of cultures. My aspiration is to have an international
audience. To appeal to a folk aesthetic and provide a showcase
for a great instrument.
I believe that sound design is 60+% of a good animated short
story. The music will be important to provide mood, reinforce
emotions being communicated, and provide transition for each
phrase of action. I would prefer to have whomever I work with
present when I am doing my sound to bounce ideas and work hand
in hand with. This may be constrained by distance between the
people involved. I hope that through email and fax we could
achieve the same cooperation.
I am a student and do not have a large budget. It is my
understanding that most hurdygurdy players do not play for
their livelihood, but for the love of the instrument. Such
is the lot of most artists.
We have digital and analog recording studios here; some of
you may have equipment at home and prefer to work that way.
Now, if any of you would like to be a part of this project,
I can provide a copy of my storyboard and prototype images.
I will most likely also use my website(rudimentary as it may
be), in the future, to post test animations, leica reel
(storyboard shot to rough timing, transitions, scratch sound)
and images: www.eciad.bc.ca/~dhess.
If you have further questions and are interested, please do
contact me. Any input from a musicians understanding and to
have feedback on my story would be great!
Damien Hess
dhess _at_ apexmail.com
Tel: 604-734-2750
pager: 604-979-1066
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:08:53 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] loud or valentin? (I like this!)
Hi friends
Lot of things to say, probably I'll need more than a
email (sorry...).
This is the fact: I've met Petra in Bologna some
months ago, then Petra met Carlo Rizzo somewhere else.
Carlo Rizzo (that is the incredible "tambourine-man"
in Clastrier trio) was a dear friend of mine when we
both lived in Rome (and he STILL is of course!) then
he moved to France, I moved to Bologna so we lost our
prints for more than 15 years.
Petra spoked him about a HG player from Bologna
(me...) so we were able to meet again.
So, thanks a lot for this, Petra!
Carlo called at me saying that he was going to play in
Bologna with Clastrier and Riessler.
Of corse I went to the concert.
Before the concert we (the trio, Gloria and me) met in
a wine-bar and the days after I invited them in my
house for lunch, before joing them to the airport.
So I had Valentin and Carlo at my "disposition" for
some hours in a relaxed situation, and this was really
nice.
I can't say I really "know" Valentin but I can say
something the same.
Valentin is avery nice person (even if he refused to
speak anithing but Frenc...:o) and is an incredible
player.
The main subjects of our chattering were:
1) hurdy-gurdy (strange, isn'it?);
2) how to "make" a child at Fifty (he made....);
3) how to write a tune dedicated to the child (see 2).
Valentin smoke and drinks wine, and the main course of
the lunch was tortellini (that is a a Bolognese pasta
"Venus belly" shaped with meat inside, so I don't
think he's vegetarian.
Of course he's not a "common" person and his music
show this clearly.
A Clastrier concert (expecially in trio with Carlo and
Riessler, that are astonishingly "peculiar" too...)
is a brainstorming experience.
You know, I don't like that kind of music so much but
I must confess that there is "something" special in it
(not just "strange", if you know what I mean), and
more I listen to it (of course I made a DAT
recording...) more I like it.
I can't say anything about "how many coups" and so on
because I didn't count them...I was just listening to
the music....
I think that the real goal for a "musician" is the
music (expecially if the musician is the composer too)
and I think that the music can show more about the
personal way of life of the person.
Why I was shoked?
Well.....let me say that is not easy to play the
hurdy-gurdy after a meeting with Valentin (and several
other, I must say....).
I was shoked by his different approach to the
instrument, by his instrument (that is no more a
Siorat: it WAS a Siorat before, now is something
else).
In other words: I really can't "understand" his way of
"making" music, from the process of composition of the
tune to the mere execution: he's so different that is
impossible to say "well, if I play 4 hours a day, in
10 year I'll be able to play the same" (as is it
possible to say after listening to several other
accomplished player).
I discovered that, fortunately, there is someone
really "different" (like it or not) and I love the
differences when the differences drive to the sharing
of experiences and are not unapproucables walls
between different people.
Sorry to be so boring.....
> daily routines were a means to achieve the same
> goal. What was the goal?
> Perhaps to discover his destiny and ful valentin? (I like this!)
Marcello-
Please feel free to continue to "bore" us at your convenience...
~ Matt
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:59:29 -0800
From: Damien Hess <dhess _at_ apexmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Re: animator
Hello Everyone!
In my recent introductions to this community, I would like to retract the following statement:
"It is my understanding that most hurdygurdy players do not play for their livelihood,
but for the love of the instrument. Such is the lot of most artists."
I stand corrected as to the ability of hurdygurdy musicians to make a living on what the
enjoy doing! No harm intended. I was only paraphrasing what an amature hurdygurdyist
had advised me when I was bemoaning not being able to pay people what they deserve
for their services.
In regards to seeking cooperation on my film project, what I have to offer is film credit,
exposure at film festivals, and eternal gratitude.
Best Regards,
Damien Hess
dhess _at_ apexmail.com
Tel: 604-734-2750
pager: 604-979-1066
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:04:44 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or (valentin)? (WAS: Lambert ......)
I mentioned the thing about diet and religion. I have been a musician for 32
years. I've played in Las Vagas and in broadcasting. I just
think that sometimes every possible little thing with music interests me.
And in jazz, there has long been the accepted duality of study of the person
and their music.
Those two things can get equal attention at least in jazz study. I suspected
that Budism may be part of Valentin's work. Well, and to say a part may be
true enough. I don't know.
I study meditative sounds. I just (finally) bought Keiji Haino's two CDs.
I'm also studying Leon Theramin's life this week. I have a Theramin and the
biography, and the documentry. Case in point where they talk half and half
of his music and of his personal life (Theramin.)
I wear myself out I'm telling you, but it just all seems insteresting.
The first time I heard Valentin's music, I felt alarmed. I managed to get
the boxed set of Herese and Les Buchers... I settled back and turned the
lights down. I had my son there (little Zoya, age 4). I was thinking, "this
should be fun." The song started out and ... I just wouldn't mind having a
picture of my face 10 seconds into it. I thought is was the wrong CD in the
wrong case. Then I thought the machine had gone half speed or something
nuts. I checked it and reset it. I hit play again. I had to turn the lights
back up. It scared me. I guess something like, "what Is this." Kind of like
that.
I have come to love the sound of the electric instrument. I am loyal to the
CD "Tiz." But what can I say, sometimes I just feel curious about
everything.
best wishes,
jim
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 20:37:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or not loud? LEDE
--- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote:
> And now the theory.
> There is a similar theory in studio recording rooms,
> that is called LEDE (Live End Dead End).
> ...
> In my opinion it's the same for gurdies, just turn
> walls into different gurdy parts.
>
> You can have a LELE, LEDE or DEDE gurdy by balancing
> the thickness and the kind of wood of different
> parts.
I've only gotten as far with that as to concoct
several cunning plans for DE under the soundboard.
Among the practical solutions, like overbracing and
making the area on the keybox end smaller, my favorite
ideas are the:
1) "Cowboy" version: upholster it with fine tooled
saddle leather from the pegbox to the wheel (Kinda
like Waylon Jennings guitar, except not all over),
2)"Space Odyssey" version: only have a module for the
sound chamber and the keybox, pegbox etc, attached
with structural frames,
3)"Lazy version: Make the hurdy gurdy however you like
and fill the DE areas with that canned foam insulation
stuff.
>
> ...you know what?.....in Italian "recovery"
> is the action you do when you move from your own
> house
> to the nearest hospital because you're getting worse
> :o
The more I think about it the better it gets. ;-)
"Get well soon"
Roy Trotter
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:04:13 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: AW: [HG] loud or not loud? (WAS: Lambert ......)
--- Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
wrote:
> But I always wondered why my
> electroacoustic Siorat HG sounds
> better in D than in G. You saw and heard the
> instrument in summer and it`s
> not as large as the bourbonnais HGs in D and it`s
> not loud.
I think that CG and D tuning ask for "different" kind
of gurdies because of the different "range" of the
whole sound.
And I also think that acoustic and electro-acoustic
gurdies "sound" different because of their different
"making".
Another problem is the number of the strings (and
other features too...) used in modern electro-acoustic
gurdies: I think that is terribly difficult to make a
"good sounding"
LELE electro-acoustic-lot-of-strings-and-features
gurdy.
All good gurdies of this kind I know are heavy and
quite "dead", so it's normal that your baroque Louvet
is much louder.
But in my opinion, a "real" baroque gurdy shouldn't be
made in LELE way, that's to say: little baroque lute
and flat back guitar shaped gurdies were made in a
"no resonating" way (as far it's possible...), and the
only bottom half of the soundboard was able to
"vibrate".
So they were able to decide the loudness and the sound
of the instrument just using the "right" soundboard
and bracing.
If you look at a real baroque gurdy you can see how it
was made to be "mute".....
Of course they made "muted" gurdies because they
wanted to balance the loudness according to "continuo"
instruments: if you play together with a harpsichord
using a LELE gurdy, the harpsichord player become
useless.....
Quite strange: several 18th century methods say that
lute shaped gurdies have "more sound" but this is not
really true!
With the same internal volume and the same soundboard
and bracing, a "flat" back gurdy plays "more" than a
lute shaped one, and if the "guitar" body is make with
curved soundboard and back, it plays even more than
this, because this kind of body can be made less
"heavy" (more resonant) than a flat back.
If you don't believe in me, just play a Bleton
gurdy.....
> I think what instrument you play, depends not only
> on the quality of an
> instrument, but on what music you want to play.
And vice-versa......:o)
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:24:23 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or not loud? LEDE (this is NOT a serious email)
--- Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> wrote:
> Among the practical solutions, like overbracing and
> making the area on the keybox end smaller, my
> favorite
> ideas are the:
>
> 1) "Cowboy" version: upholster it with fine tooled
> saddle leather from the pegbox to the wheel (Kinda
> like Waylon Jennings guitar, except not all over),
>
> 2)"Space Odyssey" version: only have a module for
> the
> sound chamber and the keybox, pegbox etc, attached
> with structural frames,
>
> 3)"Lazy version: Make the hurdy gurdy however you
> like
> and fill the DE areas with that canned foam
> insulation
> stuff.
4) "Calendar" version: just push the gurdy over a
"soft" belly (like mine). If you haven't any soft
belly, just ask me: I can give you the correct diet
prescription and a VHS video showing the "exercises"
for 30 US Dollars (plus P & P).
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 20:26:41 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: AW: [HG] loud or not loud? (WAS: Lambert ......)
marcello bono wrote:
(...)
> Another problem is the number of the strings (and
> other features too...) used in modern electro-acoustic
> gurdies: I think that is terribly difficult to make a
> "good sounding"
> LELE electro-acoustic-lot-of-strings-and-features
> gurdy.
> All good gurdies of this kind I know are heavy and
> quite "dead",
I have and know other eight to twelve string (+resonance) instruments
which are not "dead" at all. The are just relatively expensive. There is
a lot of craftmanship involved to make such an instrument LELE. and it
needs even more craftmanship to make them feedback-proof for using them
under electroacoustic circumstances, but they exist.
Thats mine:
An accoustic twelve string instrument 5m/4t/3d + twelve resonance
strings loud enough to play first voice in a duo with bagpipes. Built
in four ways preamp, and a dynamic range near to that of a bowed
instrument. Lowest note on the keyboard G higest note d'''' (on G and g'
string). Lowest drone C (I used it on E_ too).
these are buildt on a regular basis and cost about the same as a new
built viola da gamba or similar instrument. Due to the built in preamp
and the magnetic pickup for the resonance-strings mine is quite heavy.
Simon Wascher
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Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:20:19 -0800
From: Damien Hess <dhess _at_ apexmail.com>
Subject: [HG] address for jason priestley
Hello!
Does anyone have an email for Jason Priestly?
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:52:28 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] loud or valentin? (I like this!)
Hi Marcello, hi list,
...and now again such a long e- mail...
I met Carlo Rizzo when he gave a concert with his Trio Handicraft (perc) and
Wu Wei (chinese mouthorgan) in Frankfurt.
Since Marcello and me where talking about Carlo when we met in summer I gave
his adress to Carlo.
I`m glad to hear that you Marcello had a nice time with Carlo and Valentin!
Some thoughts about Valentin, music, workshops, approaches to music,
instruments, food,...and their relationship to each other, inspired by
Marcello`s e-mail:
Valentin used to eat macrobiotic food some time ago. Why not?
Yoga lessons were part of his HG lessons. That`s really unusual, but why
not? People expect learning how to play the coup de 6, 8 or 11 or how to
play a song or whatever.
But if you`re not relaxed and concentrated while playing, you don`t really
succeed. So I think Yoga is one possibility of trying to be in a good
condition for playing music.
Valentin told us in the workshop, that he`s not really a musician but an
explorer!
That explains a lot.
He`s always (or often) on the way trying something new...I think.
Why shouldn`t we all be explorers?
And for sure the way a person makes music and what kind of music he plays
tells a lot about his personality. There is a close relationship.
And last not least the player forms his instrument, because there is a
relationship beetween the player and his instrument (at least it should be).
Valentin has got a strong relationship to his HG and he really invented and
changed a lot...very interesting things. The HG he developed with Denis
Siorat is only a basis, that`s right.
Differences can be very fruitful, if you exchange...and if you close up your
mind for something new.
We all have to find our own music our way of dealing with the instrument....
I hope my e- mail is not too long, philosophic and boring either.
greetings
Petra
[something missing]
> daily routines were a means to achieve the same
> goal. What was the goal?
> Perhaps to discover his destiny and fulfill it.
>
> So the atmosphere was I suppose a bit religious in
> that I felt the same way
> I might feel around other sincere ,committed people
> that we meet rarely, and
> who are willing to sacrifice everything for their
> ideal.
>
> That's pretty much all I know about it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Theo
>
>
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:52:18 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or valentin? (I like this!)
Seems interesting to me. For sure. Too bad there is no biography to read on
him. The explorer part (his own image of himself) may suggest a very
brilliant mind.
Life is too short... Thank God (my way to say it) that we can live
comfortably and dwell on creativity and the arts. I'm sure that I, like any
patron of the arts, relate in my own way to things. Life is represented by
music--or sounds. I laugh at music sometimes, that it is so abtract. Sure,
we write it and hold our "sound devices." We do business useing it.
But no one can see music. Try to teach that qulaity to a student--to make
music from the page. Or try to teach anyone to compose or improvise. So
strange that music is just intangible.
Valentin's music has a time-transcendant quality. I think so I mean. Usually
futuristic I guess. But then the Herese CD relates to the historic and
obscure Cathars group... And the seriousness of his persona; it seems
no-nonsense.
I of course do not know him. I don't know much really. I'm serious.
This is my muse, and way of saying thanks to those that took time to write
about him.
What did it mean, from someone:
2)how to "make" a child at Fifty (he made....)?
3) how to write a tune dedicated to the child (see 2).
Did it mean metaphoricly himself, or did it mean that he has had a new baby
reciently?
.......
jim/ maine
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:01:43 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Three old gurdies
Hi everyone !
I came across the following instruments the other day. Can anyone give me
comments/background on the makers ?
The instruments are fairly complete and are kept in a controlled
preservation/conservation environment.
I was only able to view them at a distance on a few feet - no touching
allowed.
The custodian of the instruments would be most grateful of more information
and if I can provide this I hope I may be allowed a private visit to
examine/photograph them.
It would seem likely that none of them have been played since 1935 if not
earlier.
1) by J. Colson, French, c. 1840. Stamped "Colson a Mirecourt".
Flat guitar shaped body inlaid with ebony and ivory and the head is carved
to represent an old man with a beard.
2 chanterelles, 4 drones and 24 keys.
2) by Henry Thouvenel, French, c.1855. Stamped "Thouvenel, Henry a
Mirecourt".
Flat guitar shaped body inlaid with ebony and ivory and the head is carved
to represent a woman
2 chanterelles, 4 drones and 23 keys.
3) by Joseph Gaffino who died in Paris in 1787.
Lute shaped body with 9 laminations, inlaid corners of ebony and ivory and
the head is carved to represent a man wearing a cap.
2 chanterelles, 4 drones, 4 symathetic strings and 23 keys.
Graham Whyte
graham _at_ altongate.co.uk
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:01:55 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] quite OT: Fanfare Ciocarlia
Simon,
Fanfare Ciocarlia came to Austin, TX last night with the Gypsy Caravan. They
were wonderful as were the other 3 groups in the tour. They each did a set
then all played together and then after playing for almost 3 hours they went
outside and busked. We all stayed. I danced on the street. It was a good
night. Thanks for the tip. I think their next tour is in February.
Regards,
Theo
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:03:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] wheel - bridge distance
--- Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> to my expirience, like on bowed instruments there is
> a ideal partition
> of the wheel for every vibrating string lenght and
> therefore pitch. The
> (fixed) distance between the wheel and the bridge
> makes that there is a
> point on the keyboard where it sounds best. By
> shifting the wheel (the
> distance) this optimum moves up and down the
> keyboard.
I see. So is this optimum distance for the full range
something that is predictable, like acertain
percentage of the scale lenght?
> if the distance
> is to far the
> higher notes lose too much sound and are hard to
> intonate.
That explains a mystery I've been pondering for some
time, Thanks.
Roy Trotter (Springtown, Tx USA)
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Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:35:02 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] wheel - bridge distance
Hello Roy,
> I see. So is this optimum distance for the full range
> something that is predictable, like acertain
> percentage of the scale lenght?
Yes and no, for every single note there is, at least there are rules
known by musicans and instrumentmakers (the same phenomenon for the
right point for picking a guitar or for where to drill the hole for
hanging tubular bells). For the whole range of the hurdy gurdy its a
compromise depending on the range of the keyboard and the music played
on the instrument. So if you *use* the high notes on the keyboard and
how fast the wheel "bowes" the string which also depends on the diameter
of the wheel and on the music and style one playes.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:48:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] wheel - bridge distance (esoterica)
--- Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> wrote:
> Yes and no, for every single note there is, at least
> there are rules
> known by musicans and instrumentmakers (the same
> phenomenon for the
> right point for picking a guitar or for where to
> drill the hole for
> hanging tubular bells).
Yes. These are "node points". I was hoping there might
be some thumb rule for deciding where to put the wheel
for best tone. I mentioned in an earlier post that I
was thinking about making a symphonie that would allow
adjustment of the wheel to test for optimum position.
It would have to have cylindrical stringing, the
normal conical setup would require reshaping the wheel
every time it got moved. That would only address 2 or
3 factors, but it's a start. Given my current rate of
progress, it may be awhile before I can publish, bear
with me.
> So if you *use* the high notes on
> the keyboard and
> how fast the wheel "bowes" the string which also
> depends on the diameter
> of the wheel and on the music and style one plays.
That's the factors I haven't figured out how to
quantify.
Thanks for the info.
Roy Trotter (Springtown, TX, US)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:47:08 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] wheel - bridge distance (esoterica)
Roy Trotter wrote:
>
> --- Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> wrote:
> > and
> > how fast the wheel "bowes" the string which also
> > depends on the diameter
> > of the wheel and on the music and style one plays.
>
> That's the factors I haven't figured out how to
> quantify.
The faster the wheel passes by the string the more high harmonics are
featured, so from a certain limit the string tends to play only
flageolets. The tempo of the bowing is very much determined by the wheel
diameter: a wheel with 10 cm radius has a circumference of about 63 cm a
wheel with 15 cm radius of about 95 cm . With one turn of the crank at
one time the distance and therefore speed is really different: Double
radius means double tempo.
The string also tends to play flageolets if the string is bowed near the
bridge, so here you have two factors which have to be balanced.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:20:26 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Three old gurdies
Graham:
Actually there were 2 Colsons and 2 Thouvenels, each (as far as I know)
father and son.
Mirecourt was the center of French violinmaking in the 18th and 19th
centuries. While the Parisian-area builders were more likely to be makers
of other stringed instruments, the Mirecourt HG builders tended to
concentrate on HG's.
Nicholas Colson was the eldest, b. 1788, d. 1830. Amable Antoine Thouvenel
was next, b. 1815, d. 1890. Nicholas Colson fils continued the tradition
after his father's death, working until 1893. Henri Thouvenel is reputed
to be a student of Colson fils, working in the 1850's and 1860's. From the
age difference between AA Thouvenel and Colson per, one assumes that the
elder Colson taught his son, who then taught the two Thouvenels. These
four comprised the core of the "Mirecourt School" of hurdy-gurdy
building. It's not known whether they all built instruments in the same
esstablishment, but only two Thouvenels with similar heads, that of a
bishop with a mitre-style hat. I theorize that either there was one person
in their shop who did all their carving, or they contracted with the same
local carver for all their heads. (Bassot was not so lucky - the head on
the MFA collection instrument is quite bizarre, almost grotesque.)
The Mirecourt builders strongly favored the guitar-shaped instrument over
the luteback. There are a few Colson lutebacks around, and they tend to be
considerably smaller than the Jenzat instruments. They did not include
sympathic strings.
Joseph Gaffino I don't know much about, except that he built bowed-string
instruments as well, and lived in Paris. His contemperaries included
Jean-Nicholas Lambert. We'd be very interested in seeing his HG style,
because we have an instrument made in Paris in 1764 by his fellow luthier
Francois Gavinies.
Alden
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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:15:45 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] loud or valentin? (I like this!)
> What did it mean, from someone:
> 2)how to "make" a child at Fifty (he made....)?
> 3) how to write a tune dedicated to the child (see
> 2).
> Did it mean metaphoricly himself, or did it mean
> that he has had a new baby
> reciently?
> .......
> jim/ maine
The second one.....but probably the first one too :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:52:20 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] LELE electroacoustic (WAS loud or not loud?.....)
--- Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> wrote:
> I have and know other eight to twelve string
> (+resonance) instruments
> which are not "dead" at all. The are just relatively
> expensive.
my "terribly difficult to make"
and
your "just relatively expensive"
mean the same from different points of view: what is
"difficult to make" for a maker will be "expensive"
for the customer.
(by the way, I think that hurdy-gurdies are relatively
less expensive than several other instruments).
May I ask you who's the maker of your gurdy?
Ciao
====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:24:02 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] LELE electroacoustic (WAS loud or not loud?.....)
Hello,
marcello bono wrote:
> --- Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> wrote:
> > I have and know other eight to twelve string
> > (+resonance) instruments
> > which are not "dead" at all. The are just relatively
> > expensive.
> my "terribly difficult to make"
> and
> your "just relatively expensive"
> mean the same from different points of view: what is
> "difficult to make" for a maker will be "expensive"
> for the customer.
> (by the way, I think that hurdy-gurdies are relatively
> less expensive than several other instruments).
This is what I wanted to point at by comparing the price of my
instrument with that of a viola da gamba.
> May I ask you who's the maker of your gurdy?
Wolfgang Weichselbaumer, 1999
Simon
--
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:22:12 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] French Method book
I have had a request from someone looking for a French language learning
method for hurdy-gurdy. Does anyone know of such a thing, and where it can
be obtained?
As I recall, an early edition of the Muskett book was translated into French...
~ Matt
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:17:28 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
To: "'hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com'" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] French Method book
Dear Matthew,
There is a method published by Editions Fuzeau
www.fuzeau.fr
Doigtés et virtuosité, exercises gradués pour la vielle
By Laurent Bitaud, 1988, Ëditions J.M. Fuzeau, Courlay. In French, with cassette tape.
Regards
Nicholas
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:47:34 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: RE: [HG] French Method book
> As I recall, an early edition of the Muskett book
> was translated into French...
>
> ~ Matt
Yes, I got it, probably it was the 1985 edition.
There are also two Fromenteau's little book about easy
baroque duets, with some instructions in both french
and english, and of course the facsimile edition of
the 18th century methods.
And then Maxou's book....
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:00:02 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] French Method book
hello,
I weould recomend to read:
http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/biblio.html#methods
Simon
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:37:34 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] SCIENTISTS FIND MUSICIAN'S BRAINS ARE WIRED DIFFERENTLY
I thought that this would be of interest to some of you at there.
I knew that Hurdy Gurdy Players are different from the rest of the people
out there.
Now we need to do more scientific studies to prove it.
SCIENTISTS FIND MUSICIAN'S BRAINS ARE WIRED DIFFERENTLY
Study comes on the heels of a frightening prime-time Michael Jackson
special.
Associated Press
SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The brain waves of professional musicians respond to
music in
a way that suggests they have an intuitive sense of the notes that
amateurs
lack, researchers said Wednesday.
Neuroscientists, using brain-scanning MRI machine to peer inside the
minds of
professional German violinists, found they could hear the music simply by
thinking about it, a skill amateurs in the study were unable to match.
The research offers insight into the inner workings of the brain and show
that
musicians' brains are uniquely wired for sound, researchers said at the
annual
meeting of the Society for Neuroscience
Neuroscientists are increasingly studying how we hear and play music,
since few
activities draw on so many functions of the brain, including memory,
learning,
motor control, emotion, hearing and creativity, said Dr. Robert Zatorre
of the
Montreal Neurological Institute.
"It offers a window onto the highest levels of human cognition," Zatorre
said.
In a study by researchers at the University of Tuebingen, the brains of
eight
violinists with German orchestras and eight amateurs were analyzed as
they
silently tapped out the first 16 bars of Mozart's violin concerto in G
major.
Brain scans showed professionals had more activity in the part of their
brains
that controlled hearing, said Dr. Gabriela Scheler of the University of
Tuebingen.
"When the professionals move their fingers, they are also hearing the
music in
their heads," Scheler said.
Amateurs, by contrast, showed more activity in the motor cortex, the
region that
controls finger movements, suggesting they were more preoccupied with
hitting
the correct notes, she said.
Scheler, a former violinist with the Nuremberg Philharmonic Orchestra,
said the
findings suggest that professionals have "liberated" their minds from
worrying
about hitting the right notes. As a result, they are able to listen,
judge and
control their play, Scheler said.
"Presumably, this enhances the musical performance," she said.
In a second experiment, the two groups of violinists were asked to
imagine
playing the concerto without moving their fingers. Brain scans showed
again that
the professionals were hearing the music in their heads.
Zatorre, who has studied the brain's response to music for two decades,
said it
was the first time anyone had studied music and its relationship to motor
control and imagery.
Researchers from Canada also found differences in the brain waves of
professional musicians and nonmusicians as they listened to musical
notes.
Violinists with Canada's National Academy Orchestra and advanced pianists
studying with the Royal Conservatory of Music in Ontario showed a brain
wave
response 40 percent higher than university students with no background in
music.
The enhanced response, which occurs one-fifth of a second after the tone
is
played, suggests that more neurons are firing in the part of the brain
that
controls hearing.
Roberts is currently testing young music students ages 5 through 15 to
test
whether the brains of musicians are different because they came wired
that way
or developed as a result of training.
While the study is not complete, initial results suggest that major
changes
occur during childhood in the part of the brain that controls hearing, he
said.
..................... ......................
.................... ................. ...............
[R.T.]
One thing that this makes me think about is weather or not the
"Professional " musicians were "playing by ear" and the amateurs were "
reading the notes. It makes me wonder if the brain of people that can
play by ear are working differently.
I hope you enjoyed this little diversion from discussions of strings,
glue,rosin and what people eat.
No one asked me, but I eat lots of 74% Chocolate !
I figure that if Pierre Imbert eat lots of it so maybe that is the secret
to better Hurdy Gurdy playing.
r.t.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:26:45 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] SCIENTISTS FIND MUSICIAN'S BRAINS ARE WIRED DIFFERENTLY
Brains? we need brains? Now I know where my problem is!
Colin
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:41:04 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] address for jason priestley
Jacob's on the list. Where are you, Jacob? ;-)
>Does anyone have an email for Jason Priestly?
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:07:23 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] for sale........HURDY-GURDY FROM "CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS"
Some of you have scene the movie called "CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS".
It is a great movie all by its self, but of course it is just a bit
better because Spencer Tracy uses a Hurdy Gurdy in it.
I have always wondered what happened to that HG. According to Curtis
Berak, the HG in the movie was loaned to MGM and is currently in storage
at the University of California at Los Angeles.
So I was surprised to find that it is for sale at the Christies Auction
in New York on November 19th.
This is their lot description:
SPENCER TRACY HURDY-GURDY FROM "CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS"
MGM, 1937
A wooden hurdy-gurdy used by Spencer Tracy as he portrayed the honorable
and stoic fisherman Manuel in the film that won him a Best Actor Academy
Award. Designed with a handle on one end and a carved head on other, this
piece was seen when Harvey Cheyne, as portrayed by Freddie Bartholomew,
learns the first of his many important life lessons while Manuel plays
the instrument for him and sings a song. It also appears at the end of
the film when the youngster decides to keep it as a memento of his
friend. A black and white publicity still of Spencer Tracy holding the
hurdy-gurdy is included.
26 inches x 10 inches x 5 inches
............
I have a few photos from the movie showing the HG which looks a bit
different than the photo on the web page listed here. So as any addicted
HG player would do, I called Christies for more details and to ask some
questions.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/Search/LotDetail.asp?intObjectID=3820229&SN=
609&LN=0023
They kindly sent me some digital pictures and then I was sure that I knew
that the HG was not the one used in the movie.
It is hard to play a HG that does not have keys that move. Their HG has
a solid piece of wood that has some slots cut into it to simulate keys.
It is also hard to play with only one row of keys ( I guess they thought
they could get away with it )
A plywood sound board is not exactly the best choice either.
And of course it would have been nice if there was a lid on top of the
key box so that you could open it and adjust the tangents, but on this
one the top is just painted on to simulate a top, there are no tangents.
And they could have at least used some real perfing instead of painting
on a simulation.
So I sent them a detailed letter explaining why their HG was not the same
one that is used in the movie and they have decided to make an
announcement at the time of the auction on Monday stating the following.
This HG was shipped to a "MGM" film distribution center in New York in
1937 for use in promoting the film.
It is not the HG that Spencer Tracy plays in the movie.
But there is an interesting story behind it anyway. The person who was
supposed to ship it back to MGM decided to keep it [ does that mean it is
stolen]. So he kept it in his house all of these years. It might have
been a "stand in" for the real HG in the movie since you could bash it
around and not damage the real one.
I would like to have it even though it is not the one in the movie. But
since I think that I better use my money more wisely, I don't think that
I will bid on it.
But maybe one of you out there might be interested in this piece of
memorabilia. It would be nice to have in our HG group.
It is Sale number 8609, Lot number 23
r.t.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:09:42 -0800
From: Damien Hess <dhess _at_ apexmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [HG] address for jason priestley
Sorry folks! Got the name wrong - I got hold of Jacob's address. Thanks.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:13:32 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] for sale........HURDY-GURDY FROM "CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS"
RT, that is an amazing story and a great bit of detective work! Does that
mean that no one knows (or admits to knowing) the whereabouts of the REAL
hurdy gurdy??
Sharon
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:26:32 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From RT
> RT, that is an amazing story and a great bit of detective work! Does that
> mean that no one knows (or admits to knowing) the whereabouts of the REAL
> hurdy gurdy??
> Sharon
Curtis says that it is at UCLA
You can buy it for me if you want to.
r.t.
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:54:31 -0800
From: Fiddlers <mdfiddler _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] for sale........HURDY-GURDY FROM "CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS"
Gee, sounds like the perfect hurdy-gurdy to take to sea.... no problems with
humidity and salt and storms destabilizing it.... no complaints from your
bunkmates about the out-of-tune sound.....
Marjy
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:09:53 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] A Tobacco card?
I routinely check eBay for hurdy-gurdies, just to see what the market is
doing. I thought I'd seen everything...
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1486194698
Alden
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:15:35 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] new comer
hello!
I am a new comer to the list and to the hurdy gurdy. My name is ginny I live
in the Catskills (1 h South of Albany NY) and just foolishly adquired a
french Hurdy Gurdy made in Mirecourt France. I'll have to sell a harp to pay
for it. LOLL...
Anyway I know nothing about it except that I have listened to a lot of it
and its been about 2 years now that I wanted to get one and go for it. I
sing French Britton Songs in sessions and would like to get that hurdy gurdy
going..
Do you guys know of anybody in my area who plays. helps with maintenance and
checks ?? I need practical input about the strings, tunings, tension of the
strings etc...
Thanks
Ginny
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:00:34 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
Brothers and sisters,
I would like to get some advice about cd-distribution. We all know that
vielle music -cds and many other marginal genres, rarities & oddities are
hard to find - and deliver (in case you have published something without
established distributor and/or record companies).
My band Ihtiriekko is trying to reach to the recording level, with our own
money, of course...
Now I would like to know a little about the ways to deliver our music to
drone-people around the net or the world, and we are not ready to pay
anything to anyone but for the mailman, ie. no credit-card hassle or
webshop -crap. Idealistically it should be only us, some mailmen and you.
The problem is the reliable and just method for payment & delivery of cd.
Of course I would like to trust everybody and simply send cd and ask the
customer to send me the payment in cash when he/she has got the cd, but
maybe the world does not work that way anymore...
Any ideas?
To make this all even more easily understood, picture this:
You see from this hg-list, that some obscure band in far-away country has
released a cd with plenty of hurdy-gurdy in it. You go to their website and
listen some samples of their music.
And you become even more interested, actually you are compelled to get
this cd, the music already plays inside your head, but it's only that damn
30 sec. sample! Soon you find that this recording is not available via
internet, no sign of it at Amazon.com, Northside, Digelius ScanMail etc. No
"official alternative -store" you usually trust has not heard of it.
What next? Yes, you try to contact the band. But soon their reply shows
that they are players, not masters of international trade. They have used
all their powers and money to the process: recording, mixing, mastering and
printing of 500 cds + booklets, and they can't just send them away around
the world to friendly collaborators... They have just spread some 70 cds to
press and other media, festival promoters, closest relatives and friends
and now they know that the rest of the pile really has to be sold with
reasonable price.
Again: What next?
Yours,
Esa Mäkinen
Finland
.........................................................................
CONTACTS:
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja 1 B 8 /Kråkgränden 1 B 8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
our e-mail: ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi
website of our band: www.ihtiriekko.net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:35:00 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
Difficult. (Except perhaps for Europe and the Euro). Usually the cost of
converting to local currency can be high (certainly in the UK). Banks charge
a minimum fee (usually high). If they sent you the amount in their own
currency, the cost to you would be too much, then there's the endless wait
for the cheque to clear.............
I have always used plastic to buy so if there is another way I'm listening.
Then of course there is the tax to add and shipping charges when they
arrive.....
Colin Hill (UK)
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:04:40 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] A Tobacco card?
Is the instrument pictured on that card a "Lambert?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:20:07 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] A Tobacco card?
--- Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> wrote:
> Is the instrument pictured on that card a "Lambert?"
"Hurdy Gurdy Instrument Tobacco Card 1929 Issued by
tobacco company Lambert & Butler ..."
it really looks like my Lambert..
but who the hell is Butler? :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:10:21 -0000
From: frank vickers <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
Hi Esa and list
I am infuriated by this problem as well - we've had a bit of a discussion
about something very related a few months ago. At the time I said I thought
the only way out might be to start my own distribution company.
Here in the UK we have problems getting hold of foreign and small run CDs
from shops or any "central" web-site. We have to dig and delve, network, use
contacts and end up with a tape copy maybe until we can get the real thing.
This is the point where I have to warn you about the commercial content of
my email!
I and a friend have decided to set up a CD distribution company specialising
in European music (ie music from or of mainly Europe). We especially have in
our sights bands like yours Esa. The company is called Cube Roots and we
have already bought the web space www.cuberoots.com We expect to start
trading around the end of January 2002.
Our aim is to promote all the artists we sell and to try to get their music
noticed. We will try to get the CDs bought by a wider audience - but at
least you would know there would be a central place you could go to who, if
they didn't have the CD, would certainly try to get it.
At the moment we are talking to bands and artists, record labels, and other
distributors. We're also talking to a bank about accepting payments from
cards and such like, by phone and internet. It is quite frightening!
So if there are any artists and bands who would like us to consider their CD
for distribution you could email us direct off list on info _at_ cuberoots.com
Frank Vickers
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 01:38:32 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] new comer
Dear Ginny,
Congratulations! Welcome to the world of hurdy-gurdy playing.
There is a player somewhat close to you, in Schenectedy. (Is that how it's
spelled, John?) In any case, John is a list member, so I expect you'll be
hearing from him presently if you haven't already.
RT Taylor holds classes sometimes in the Boston area - a bit of a trek, but
worth the trip if you can make it. RT is a fount of hurdy-gurdy knowledge
and is an excellent teacher. Remember to bring chocolate. ;-)
Where did you acquire this instrument, and who is the maker? What kind of
condition is it in?
Alden
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:59:37 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
Hello,
frank vickers wrote:
> I and a friend have decided to set up a CD distribution company
I wish you all the best with your project. Just keep in mind that there
*are* some distributors for this kind of music in europe.
If I read Juulia & Esas request right, it was about a way to distribute
without sharing money with whatever distributor.
Juulia & Esa wrote:
> Subject: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
> Now I would like to know a little about the ways to deliver our music to
> drone-people around the net or the world, and we are not ready to pay
> anything to anyone but for the mailman, ie. no credit-card hassle or
> webshop -crap. Idealistically it should be only us, some mailmen and you.
>
> The problem is the reliable and just method for payment & delivery of cd.
> Of course I would like to trust everybody and simply send cd and ask the
> customer to send me the payment in cash when he/she has got the cd, but
> maybe the world does not work that way anymore...
>
> Any ideas?
Yes:
let the customer send the cash in advance. If he really likes your CD
*and* you are the only source, this will work.
To do an extra:
put up a site where customers can post their expiriences with the
reliability of musicans which distribute their CDs directly, so
something like the feedback comments on the seller offered by online
auctionators.
So, the routine would be: You put an offer to your homepage, customers
sendin you the money in cash enclose their return address, and you send
them your CD when you get the customers letter.
If customer is cautious if he/she can trust you, you can offer the
customer may read the feedback comments and statistics.
In detail: two payment offers are possible:
let the customer send you the cash in your currency (including CD and
shipping),
*or*
let the customer send you the cash in his currency (including CD,
shipping and money exchange fee).
Simon
--
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:46:24 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] new comer
Hello.
This is from Maine. I wish to write for Matthew. He'd be too humble may be,
but Albany is, I think, reasonable distance from here. May be 9 hours. I
know that New York city is 10 or 11 hours south.
I mention it because Mathew is what I believe, I know for sure, to be a
high-level builder and expert in construction.
I will list his web page.
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/home.html
I hope Matthew doesn't mind me doing so.
He's an expert for sure.
Best wishes,
jim
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:07:30 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] John in Schenectady
Hi Alden!
Thanks for the warm welcome. Wow! please John whoever u r in Schenectady I
need to see u!!!
My hurdy gurdy is about 1oo years old French from Mirecourt (where they also
make violins) made by Colson.It needs a check because they are a few cracks
and i do not want to change the tension and mke reajustemnets before I know
my vielle can stand it without cracking more...So if u know as well somebody
not too far who could help me with it I'd appreciate.. I bought it in a
hurry in Paris when visiting my family and was heart struck by it... when
the reasonnable approach would have been to take it to a luthier first....
But what is done is done!!
Thanks again for helping!
Ginny
++++++
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:34:44 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] new comer
Hi Jim!!!
Many thanks for the reference!! I also just received another recommandation
from a French Forum (a Quebecquois vielleux Henry from Montreal, telling me
that Matthew would be a valuable help for my Hurdy Gurdy. Matthew apparently
did a great job on a Colson Vielle for somebody in Boston... Thanks and hi
to Matthew who I will visit on his site!!!!
Ginny
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:18:19 -0800
From: Fiddlers <mdfiddler _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] John in Schenectady
Dear Ginny,
You've gotten some recommendations of who might take a look at your vielle -
you should also consider Alden and Cali Hackmann at Olympic Musical
Instruments, as they have some considerable experience with repair and
restoration work as well as building instruments. They ship instruments on a
regular basis and can advise about the manner and cost of shipping your
instrument to them for an evaluation.
Meanwhile, welcome to the impulsive heart-struck group we hurdy-gurdy
players seem to be!
Marjorie Fiddler
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:50:50 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] John in Schenectady
Dear Ginny
My hurdy gurdy is about 1oo years old French from Mirecourt (where they also
>make violins) made by Colson.It needs a check because they are a few cracks
>and i do not want to change the tension and mke reajustemnets before I know
>my vielle can stand it without cracking more...So if u know as well somebody
>not too far who could help me with it I'd appreciate.. I bought it in a
>hurry in Paris when visiting my family and was heart struck by it... when
>the reasonnable approach would have been to take it to a luthier first....
>But what is done is done!!
It's probably a bit older than that, depending on which Colson built
it. If it's signed "Colson Fils", he died in 1893. If it's signed
"Colson" it was built before 1830.
Has the wheel been replaced? Where are the cracks?
We've done quite a bit of work on these instruments, ranging from little
adjustments to full restorations. Please feel free to contact us off list.
Where did you find it in Paris?
Alden
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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:07:01 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] French Method book
Dear Matthew,
I know I´m a bit late in answering...maybe there`s no more need for it.
But anyway I found a
"Methode de Vielle par André Dubois"
It shows several coups and has some traditional music in it. But the
explanations of how to learn and practice the different coups aren´t well.
The one of Laurent Bitaud is not really a method. It´s a colection of quite
useful exercises for the left hand.
greetings
Petra
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:26:43 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] colson vielle
Oh wow... yes it is signed Colson mirecourt with no date though. the wheel
looks definitely younger than the rest and the cracks are on the side near
the front attachment button.
Thanks for ur offer! Ill think about it Thanks for the help!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:26:44 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] John in Schenectady
Thanks!!!looking forward to let u know more about this baby!
Ginny
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:05:19 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] colson vielle
Um, ahem... Thanks Jim; your check's in the mail...
Seriously, though, "expert" is laying it on a bit thick. But I'll toss in
my two cents:
It's safe to say, Ginny, that I am the closest person to you who has made
more hurdy-gurdies than any sensible person should have. And I have
studied quite a few instruments from the time of construction of, and even
the maker of, your instrument, in an effort to understand this thing, and
so I suspect that I could help you out quite a bit in your quest for
information and advice about your hurdy-gurdy. And while Camden is less
than 9 hours from you, it's still pretty far. I will be in the Boston area
for much of December, and it's possible that if you feel like a little road
trip (perhaps 3 hours?), I could take a look at your instrument and give
you an informed opinion about its condition. It would probably be easier
and cheaper than shipping across the country if you're looking for advice
on setup and maintenance issues.
And Marjorie is right - Cali and Alden have indeed chosen to tread where
few dare - into the netherworld of repair and restoration of such
beasts. I've seen some pretty sorry looking wall-art transformed into
functional instruments in their capable hands. If you find yourself
wanting or needing to repair or restore your old Colson, my first advice
would be to talk to them about it.
In a nutshell: there's plenty of people around who would be happy to help
you get cranking! Feel free to contact me, also, if you would like any
help which I might provide...
~ Matt
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:15:13 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: AW: [HG] French Method book
Thanks, Petra, I'll pass it along...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:44:58 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] address for jason priestley
Hi Jacob. I recommended you to a fellow from BC who is looking for an HG
person interested in working with him on his Film. As I recall it was an
animated film and I thought your background in puppetry would be an
asset. Did he ever reach you? Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:07:03 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] John in Schenectady
Well, exciting times. I come home from a long weekend in Arizona
(sans h-g) and discover my own thread title. So here I am. Not a
craftsperson, alas (leave that to Matthew, if he ever finds the time)
but I do play a bit (nowhere near enough, if you ask RT).
So Ginny, you're in the Catskills. There is (or was, though last I
heard she was still there) a lady in Woodstock named Sonia Malkine
who used to sing French folksongs, I heard her long ago at the old
Fox Hollow Folk Festival. She accompanied herself mostly on guitar,
but also on hurdy-gurdy. And there's a player and singer named Peter
Bannon in Nyack. He was at the last Boston workshop weekend we had.
So do get in touch, on or off the list as you prefer.
We have harps in our house too, by the way.
John Roberts (in Schenectady).
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:19:12 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
Hello Esa,
I do a similar thing with my own recordings. Here in the States, I
take the order, send out the CD with an invoice, and tell them to
send me a check when they get the invoice. For the not-so-popular
music that I do, I find people are very good, the few times people
haven't sent a check it's only because they have forgotten, but there
are very few. Some musicians don't send the CD till they get the
money, and that's OK too, but I have had good luck so far the other
way. They ask if I accept credit cards, I say no, but you will get
the CD just as quickly.
If someone from a foreign country wants my CD enough to try to order
it directly from me, I feel certain that they will not try to cheat
me. So I send out the CD, and we agree on cash in their currency or
in US dollars that they can get at the bank and send me, for the CD
and postage.
But if you start selling a lot of CDs this way to foreign countries
it gets to take a lot of effort for each transaction. Working out how
much to pay, because the transaction has to be in bills not coins,
can be awkward. But now there are services like PayPal, where you can
send money to anyone with an email address. I have used PayPal when I
buy things at eBay auctions, even from foreign countries. I think
they only deal in US dollars, but they do operate in a number of
countries (including Finland). Of course there will be a service
charge but it is much less that you would have to pay to accept
credit cards. Check them out at www.PayPal.com
Another thing I offer selle problem is the reliable and just method for payment & delivery of cd.
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:06:07 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] John in Schenectady
Welcome back, John!
>Well, exciting times. I come home from a long weekend in Arizona (sans
>h-g) and discover my own thread title. So here I am. Not a craftsperson,
>alas (leave that to Matthew, if he ever finds the time) but I do play a
>bit (nowhere near enough, if you ask RT).
>
>So Ginny, you're in the Catskills. There is (or was, though last I heard
>she was still there) a lady in Woodstock named Sonia Malkine who used to
>sing French folksongs, I heard her long ago at the old Fox Hollow Folk
>Festival. She accompanied herself mostly on guitar, but also on
>hurdy-gurdy. And there's a player and singer named Peter Bannon in Nyack.
>He was at the last Boston workshop weekend we had. So do get in touch, on
>or off the list as you prefer.
And say hello to Peter from us if you see him. ;-)
>We have harps in our house too, by the way.
This makes me think of Gary Larson's "Far Side" cartoon, or a variant thereon:
Left panel: line of angels at the gate, being greeted, "Welcome to Heaven,
here's your harp. Welcome to Heaven, here's your harp."
The right panel should be (at least according to Hieronymous Bosch)
"Welcome to Hell, here's your hurdy-gurdy. Welcome to Hell, here's your
hurdy-gurdy."
Alden
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:24:13 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] John in Schenectady
Well personally I think heaven and hell can keep their harps and
accordions. I expect to have to spend several thousand years in limbo
first, so I trust that's where they keep the hurdy-gurdies (finally
enough time to practice). Then perhaps the concertina section of hell?
John.
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:35:44 -0500
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: [HG] HGs in Hell?
>
>The right panel should be (at least according to Hieronymous Bosch)
>"Welcome to Hell, here's your hurdy-gurdy. Welcome to Hell, here's
>your hurdy-gurdy."
I think Bosch manages to get shawms and auto-operative bagpipes in there too
somewhere. Perhaps hell will consist of trying to blend these with a HG in
another key with a concertina thrown in for good measure.
If anyone really wants to experience hell I can give them one of my bagpipes
and they can spend an eternity trying to get all the reeds to function at
one time AND get a non-leaky bag. Now THAT makes the HG look nice and
friendly.
-Arle
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:12:07 +0100
From: reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [HG] HGs in Hell?
That reminds me that once someone told me that all these instruments stood for
virtues or not virtues like love, hate, having lots of money or
poornes.....(sorry for my English)
Is there someone who nows what the hg is standing for ?
Marc
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:47:53 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] John in Schenectady
Hi John!
Yes i hear of this lady all the time but never got to meet her!! i usually
go to sessions in high falls where i gather with Sarah Underhill, just met
Katy Taylor who BTW plays a hurdy gurdy (medieval model), but never got to
meet this lady... is she still around?
What kind of harps do u have? I am selling a celtic and a brayed gothic
harp.. to pay for the hurdy gurdy...
what are those Boston workshop?? i have friends there so i guess i could go?
I sometimes go to the comhaltas sessions at Order of ancient hibernians at
ontarion street, do go there sometimes? where do u play?
Ginny
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:47:54 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] colson vielle
Hi Matthew!!
Boston sounds like a first choice to me since I have friends that I could
stay with!!! I am free most of december except for 14 15 16... is it a
possible date where u guys gather Rt Taylor you and others for the
workshops that John talked about??
In the mean time a big huge thank you for the support from everyone!!!!!
Ginny
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:56:11 -0800 (PST)
From: David Darr <dsdarr _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Pierre Imbert
I just wanted to point out that there is a hommage to
Pierre Imbert in the current issue of Trad Magazine
(#80 - Nov/Dec 2001), which I just got in today's
mail.
David
=====
David Darr -- Seattle, WA.
mailto: dsdarr _at_ yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:03:38 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] colson vielle
The workshop John mentioned is indeed in the Boston area, at the home of
Nina Bohlen, one of the greatest people you could hope to meet (and you can
tell her I said so!). It seems to be turning into a bi-annual?
semi-annual? twice a year event, with R.T. Taylor coming from
California. It's fun and he's a GREAT teacher. We just had one in
October, and we'll probably try to plan another next spring.
There isn't anything workshop-like happening; I'll be in Boston working for
much of December, but I don't know yet exactly where I'll be staying, so I
don't know how to organize a meeting as of yet. Contact me off list if you
would like to try to get together...
~ Matt
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:03:13 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] HGs in Hell?
From url http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~grad0146/English/bosch.html I found this:
Bosch' s thematology does not differ much from that of his contemporary
artists; the subjects of most of his works are religious: Heaven and Hell,
saints, hermits, the Passion of Christ, sin and its punishment. His
depictions of evil spirits are nothing more than a product of the Middle
Age, visible evidence of the fear of witchcraft and devilry that was so
common to people of that era. However, one could say that the style of the
individual figures on Bosch' s paintings foretells Realism that was to come
a couple of centuries later.
But what forever identifies Bosch' s works as unique is the imagination and
complexity of demoniac figures. Daemons in his works are no more grotesque
beastly caricatures, but monstrous hybrids of insects, reptiles, chunks of
human anatomy and bits of machinery never seen before on any piece of art.
By presenting everything real and human contaminated by this devilish
brood, Bosch escapes from the traditional Christian belief of afterlife
judgement, perhaps to imply that the price of sin is on-earth suffering.
(As a hg player I like these last words very much)
At http://www.boschuniverse.org it was simply said that the third panel
shows the punisments of sinners in hell.
BTW: this is a great site for all Bosch works.
Maybe the hg is a symbol the sin of alienation from true belief - as
almost any musical instrument was by that time? The "luciferic", furious
dance and temptation of rhytms, you know...
Or if it has some specific meaning could it ...
a) as instrument of beggars tell to viewers that this is the final faith
for real high-end loosers, or
b) could it be symbol for heretic sects, and if yes, does it refer to (at
those times only legendary) cathar / albigens movement?
Travelling musicians were also quite rejected people, and by presenting
their tools in hell it was easy to point to folks what kind of life was
proper and what was not. In 1500 reading was quite rare skill, music and
pictures had a lot more influence and power than they do in our times.
So far I have not found anything very detalied about the symbolism in HB's
paintings. Search goes on.
Esa M.
PS. Citizens of The United States of America: please check the address
where you are sending your message. Personal his and hellos to your pals do
not belong to this list.
Do I see here the eternal cultural barrier between cold, rational Europe
and smiling, cosy hi-and-hello America? ; )
.........................................................................
CONTACTS:
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja 1 B 8 /Kråkgränden 1 B 8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
our e-mail: ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi
website of our band: www.ihtiriekko.net
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Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:57:49 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Forward from RT
> what are those Boston workshop??
I think that the workshops that John is referring to, are that workshops
that I have been teaching during the last year. We have had 2 and a half day
workshops in March and October and expect to have the next one next March or
early April.
We have been having 9-10 Hurdy Gurdy players so it is a small intimate
workshop practicing basic HG skills, Left and Right hand techniques,
ornamentation, musicianship and performance skills, playing a lot and of
course.....
EATING A LOT OF CHOCOLATE !
John Roberts has been kindly supplying the gourmet ice cream for our evening
Jam Sessions.
Nina Bohlen and Matt Szostak have been the folks organizing the workshops.
If there are others out there that are interested in attending, just send me
email and we will keep you posted.
r.t. taylor
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:06:07 EST
From: RJNA _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] HGs in Hell?
I think the definitive work about the iconography of Bosch is by Dirk Bax,
"Hieronymus Bosch, His Picture-Writing Deciphered," Rotterdam: H. A.
Balkema. It is a comprehensive study of his images and their possible
origins and meanings. There are additional studies that compare some of
these images to marginalia from medieval manuscripts, to actual carnival or
rederijker floats or pageants, and of course, to the writings of the time.
If you'd like, I'll list some of the articles; have to get out my notebook
and look at the reading list for a class I took a few years ago.
What I think is notable from reading about Bosch is that these images
probably were not so unusual or strange to his contemporaries, they alluded
to all sorts of layers of meanings, were satirical and literary, and they
reflected popular culture. Think The Simpsons. In preparation for a talk I
gave on a print (after Bosch) I watched a few episodes of the Simpsons,
making a list of all the contemporary references to politics, the arts,
school reform, toys, advertisements, language, images, etc. Now imagine
someone 500 years from now trying to "decipher" this complex interplay and
speculate on what it might have meant to the people who originally watched
it.
A friend told me of a study he had read that felt that Bosch must have been
an instrumentalist to depict the instruments with such fidelity. I haven't
been able to locate this article, but I did read that according to records,
he did participate in a choir in his lay brotherhood. So he must have
realized the power of harmonious music and discordant sound!
Hope this book helps!
Rebecca Arkenberg
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:40:53 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] Boston workshops
Well.... I am... Unfortunely my french chocolate stock is gone but I ll
find something to bring.. don't worry!!
so lemme know!!
Ginny
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 07:55:30 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] HGs in Hell?
Eve's quotes from the Bosch site
http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~grad0146/English/bosch.html are most interesting. I
have been interested before with the idea that Jerone van Aken chose to
name himself and his instrument "Wood" or "Woods". Many the HG luthier or
(Moi?) player has felt he or she has parenthetically ventured into the woods
when attempting to either construct or play the instrument. As interesting,
for those who vist Eve's web site at www.ihtiriekko.net (click on Oudot
soittimemme and scroll down) is a wonderful picture of their Hurdy Gurdys
hanging in a bramble or what the British might call a wicket. Is this their
version of van Aken's wood? I suspect the picture is a visual pun and is
indeed very p(F)unny. Anyone who has been Blackberry picking in the PNW can
relate to the similarity in endeavors. :-)
Has anyone any thoughts about what deamons van Aken might select if he were
building his Bosch today. He seems to have forseen the some of the horrors
written about in modern Science Fiction
Joan D'Andrea
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:35:43 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: OLD Photos
Hi Alden et al.
Is there a way to access the group photos from years past festivals? BTW
Does anyone have any photos on their own pages of the last few HG summer
fetes? I didn't get any this year, dropped my camera :-(, and am in the
mood to reminisce.
Thanks, Joan D'
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 21:34:26 -0800
From: Dean Cully <dfcully _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] HGs in Hell?
On the subject of the Simpsons and Bosch, in an episode of the Simpsons from
a few years ago, Bart takes a long downward journey to Hell (for whatever
reason), and there at the bottom is the tree-man and some other elements (if
not the entire scene... I can't remember accurately) from the third panel of
The Garden of Earthly Delights. I was impressed.
On another subject, I've left 2 phone messages, one in August and one last
weekend, at OMI for Alden or Cali, in addition to 2 or 3 e-mails over the
last 6-8 months regarding the status of my April 2000 order and deposit, and
change of address, for a Minstrel vielle, with no reply...
Dean Cully
(OTW 2000 attendee from Alaska)
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 00:14:28 EST
From: JoeBividu _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
Hello, my name is Joe Bividu and I am new member here.
I have found out about hurdy gurdy from other music sites and am intrigued by
the instrument and would someday like to have one. Can anyone tell me how
long of wait to get hurdy gurdy built. I hear takes a long time. Is this
true? Is it difficult to learn to play?
Thank you for your help,
Joe Bividu
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:47:33 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
Hello on the list Joe,
JoeBividu _at_ aol.com wrote:
> Hello, my name is Joe Bividu and I am new member here.
>
> I have found out about hurdy gurdy from other music sites and am intrigued by
> the instrument and would someday like to have one. Can anyone tell me how
> long of wait to get hurdy gurdy built. I hear takes a long time. Is this
> true?
Depends on the type of instrument you want. I know makers where you can
order a standard student instrument and get it within the time it takes
to organize payment and shipping, here in Europe that are as far as I
know:
http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/
http://www.gotschy.com/
for custom made instruments of these and most other makers it can take
between half a year and a year, with some makers up to two years.
Another possibility to get an instrument quickly is to buy second hand,
here the most important thing is to take yourself the time to find out
about the criterions for good and bad instruments and to learn about the
different types of instruments you come accross in the second hand
market.
> Is it difficult to learn to play?
Its a musical instrument. So its as difficult to learn as Guitar or
Trombone and it depends on your musical targets and experience. It will
take at least about 500 to 1500 hours learning and practicing (about two
to four years if you can manage to practise about one hour per day).
The main problem is that you must be able to learn it on your own,
usually the next teacher who could support weekly lessons is about 500
km away. So especcially beginners in music should concider to take
additive lessons about basic musical skills as there are rhythm, music
theory, singing, dancing, auditory training at local facilities.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:54:46 -0800
From: Fiddlers <mdfiddler _at_ home.com>
Subject: [HG] OTW T-shirts
Dear hurdy-gurdy enthusiasts,
Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Association is putting together a special order
for festival T-shirts with the OTW logo. This will accommodate those who
missed the festival, those whose sizes were not available, those who would
like a long-sleeved shirt, and those who may have a special color request.
Three of the colors which we have been using, black (with white art), and
stonewashed green or stonewashed blue (with black art) are available as
short or long sleeve T-shirts. Other colors available for both are white,
natural, purple, red, royal and forest green. Sizes are from S to 4XL (the
largest sizes have some color limitations, so ask...)
Deadline for ordering is Thursday, December 6th.
To order, send an email to Anna Peekstok - apeekstok _at_ home.com and copy Marjy
Fiddler on the message - mdfiddler _at_ home.com. Specify shirt color, shirt
size, and short or long sleeve, and please let us know how you plan to pick
up your shirt (we will have them at the French Dance on Friday, December
14th) or the mailing address if required. The charges will be $15 for
short-sleeve T-shirts and $20 for long-sleeve T-shirts, plus $3.50 postage
per mailing address if you want us to mail the shirt(s). Please send your
check in US funds, payable to OTW, to Marjy Fiddler, 2519 NW 192nd Place,
Shoreline, WA 98177.
Questions can be answered by either Anna or Marjy, see addresses above.
Thanks, Marjy
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:35:10 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: OLD Photos
On 11/23/01 9:35 AM, Joan wrote:
I have lots of photos from the 2001 festival and plan to put them up soon
but am swamped for the next couple of days with work.
I also have access to at least some of the old group photos...
Cheers,
Anna
+++++
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:21:32 EST
From: JoeBividu _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
I said:
> I have found out about hurdy gurdy from other music sites and am intrigued
by
> the instrument and would someday like to have one. Can anyone tell me how
> long of wait
> long of wait to get hurdy gurdy built. I hear takes a long time. Is this
> true?
>
Thank you, Simon, for your help.
To further clarify: I would like to look into a good quality hurdy gurdy,
chromatic scale and fairly loud without microphones. Is a half year to one
year the average time to build one or wait for one? Does it take shorter
time or longer time?
Thank you,
Joe Bividu
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:44:17 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Forward from Neil
Hi all,
I recently helped a customer correct a terminally bad trompette =
technique by making an extra large knob as his massive hand could not =
comfortably form Maxou's " Little Cage".
Any discussion on the subject may result in a glove size to ideal knob =
size correlation. Actually, so few people ( me included ) know their =
glove size that perhaps the distance from thumbtip to little fingertip =
with the hand at maximum stretch would be better.]]
Amta tune issue #2 is now up on the site.
Cheers
Neil
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk]
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 23:08:07 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
Joe-
Simon's answer was pretty complete. The makers he listed as having
instruments ready for sale do, to my knowledge, make good quality
hurdy-gurdies (I've never seen or played hurdy-gurdies by either maker, but
I have heard positive reviews from people who have). Most hurdy-gurdies
have chromatic scales and are designed to be played acoustically.
Any instrument which must be made to order will take time to build, and
there is no way anyone except the maker of a particular instrument can
estimate the wait between order and delivery. If you are interested in an
instrument by a particular builder, contact that builder and ask what the
wait will be. Don't be surprised to get an estimate only, and also don't
be surprised if, as Simon said, the wait is up to two years - it depends
totally on the maker and on the instrument you want.
~ Matt
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Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:19:08 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
On 11/25/01 7:21 PM, JoeBividu _at_ aol.com wrote:
> To further clarify: I would like to look into a good quality hurdy gurdy,
> chromatic scale and fairly loud without microphones. Is a half year to one
> year the average time to build one or wait for one? Does it take shorter
> time or longer time?
Dear Joe,
The time it takes to build a hurdy-gurdy varies with each maker and his (or
her or their) building schedule. I would recommend asking about lead time
when talking with each builder and considering his/her/their reply when you
make your decision. Buyers must sometimes balance their desire for the
"perfect" instrument against their desire to have an instrument as soon as
possible. Some makers are faster than others, but do these build instruments
with the features you are looking for? And within your price range?
You can find some builders listed (with links to their web sites) on the
Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Association's web site:
http://www.overthewater.org/links.html
There is also a much more complete list of builders, with mailing addresses,
email addresses, and other info for many of them, on Cali and Alden
Hackmann's hurdy-gurdy site:
http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/makers.html
If you can manage to be in France next July, you might want to consider
attending the festival at Saint Chartier, where, as I understand it, many
hurdy-gurdy builders will have their instruments on display. If you visit
the festival web site (http://www.saintchartier.com), you can even search
for a list of makers by country -- but if you search in English, note that
the Hurdy-Gurdy is listed as "urdy-gurdy", as a French person would
pronounce the English phrase.
I wish you the best of luck and speed in finding the loud hurdy-gurdy of
your dreams.
Cheers,
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA (USA)
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:35:36 +0100
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] New member and how long of wait for hurdy gurdy
Check this one:
http://www.bordun.de/Marktplatz/marktplatz.html
Greetings from Holland,
René Meeuws
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:30:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] The real name of Bâton's treatise
I have a reference to a treatise written by the Bâton in the 18th century,
and I'm hoping that someone can set me straight as to the correct title.
The reference (as published) is:
Bâton le jeune
Mémoire sur la Viele en d-la-ré, dans lequel on rend compte des raisons
qui ont engagé à la faire, et don't l'extrait a été presenté à la Reine
Mercure de France, Octobre 1752, Paris 1752
It seems to me that it should be "... Viele en do-la-ré, ...". The author
is very consistant about "d-la-ré". Is she correct, or did she write it
down wrong initially and propagate the error through the manuscript? I've
heard of this treatise, but I've never actually seen a reproduction of
it.
Thanks!!
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:06:56 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] The_real_name_of_Bâton's_treatise
Dear Alden
you can find an english "translation" of
Bâton's in one of the Ralyea book (take a look to my
bibliography) and I think it was D (D = re) since
Batron advocated a different kind of gurdy, without
trompette and tuned in a different key
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:21:55 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Hi gang-
I got a call (as you probably did as well, Cali and Alden; she said she
might try to call you, too) today from a woman who is looking for a
medieval synfonia style hurdy-gurdy to accompany her singing of medieval
music. I don't have similar to what she wants, and I don't really know
what's out there in North America to direct her to. She seems to want a
real replica: few strings, diatonic, etc.
Anyone have any suggestions about whether anything of good quality is
available over here in North America, new or used? Her ideal would be a
Spanish style, she says, whatever that implies. If anyone across the
Atlantic has any ideas of European instruments, why not let me know that as
well, since that might be her best solution.
~ Matt
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:40:59 -0500
From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Sounds like she wants the Kelischek screamingly 13th century Spanish
hurdy gurdy. www.susato.com.
greg
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:24:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
I had that one before, it is WAY too loud. It is the main reason why I
ended up selling it and ended up with a Bernard Ellis.
--
Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com
--
O nembi, o turbi, o venti, Sommergetelo voi dentr'a quell'onde.
Correte, orchi e balene, E de le membra immonde Empiete le voragini profonde.
Parlo` l'affanno mio, parlo` il dolore; Parlo` la lingua si`,
ma non gia` il core. --Ottavio Rinuccini (1562-1621)
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:33:54 -0500
From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Too loud? It's a heck of a lot softer than my shawm. What are you
doing, playing indoors or something?
greg
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:19:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Wow, I have no idea you are on this list....
Indoors.
NOT by much. I have two shawms myself so I know. The problem is not just
it is loud, but it screams. It is probably good for playing dance music
outdoor. To use it as a drone for singing is quite an overkill. Drones
supposed to sound humming..not screeching ;)
--
Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com
--
Flow my tears, fall from your springs,
Exiled forever: Let me mourn
where night's black bird her sad infamy sings,
there let me live forlorn. --John Dowland (2nd book of Songs or Ayres, 1600)
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