Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - December 2001Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer. The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:48:33 -0500 From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 09:19:46PM -0800, Vincent Ho wrote: > NOT by much. I have two shawms myself so I know. The problem is not just > it is loud, but it screams. It is probably good for playing dance music > outdoor. To use it as a drone for singing is quite an overkill. Drones > supposed to sound humming..not screeching ;) Hey, when you sing as poorly as I do, every little bit helps. ;) Seriously, after playing with mine for a while, I got it to be loud but not screechy. It took a long time to realize what I should adjust, and how to get it fully in tune. greg = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:33:05 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request I don't recall a request for info lately that matches this. We can build our symphonie with fewer strings, one row of keys, etc. I draw the line at hand-forging the shaft or using a solid-wood wheel... ;-) (Actually, we're willing to do these things - just that we haven't found people willing to give us the kind of financial backing needed to make it possible. >I got a call (as you probably did as well, Cali and Alden; she said she >might try to call you, too) today from a woman who is looking for a >medieval synfonia style hurdy-gurdy to accompany her singing of medieval >music. I don't have similar to what she wants, and I don't really know >what's out there in North America to direct her to. She seems to want a >real replica: few strings, diatonic, etc. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:38:35 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request > >Sounds like she wants the Kelischek screamingly 13th century Spanish >hurdy gurdy. www.susato.com. Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used - which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic parts somewhat problematic. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:04:39 -0500 From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:38:35PM -0800, Alden & Cali Hackmann wrote: > Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used - > which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic > parts somewhat problematic. I suspect the buyer is capable of deciding about that. I don't know of any other maker doing rectangular gurdies like that, or I would have mentioned them as well. greg = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:00:49 EST From: RJNA _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request >Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used - >which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic >parts somewhat problematic. My husband just modified the Kelischek he made for me a few years ago, by removing the heads of the guitar tuning machines and replacing them with ones he carved from a piece of wood. Then he built a little wooden box with four sides that fits over the whole tuning area and hides the rest of the chrome parts. He had replaced the plastic handle with a wooden one almost immediately because the plastic handle was too flimsy. The plastic keys are still there, but at least they are dark. For cosmetic reasons, he had replaced the plastic buttons to cover the screws with wooden ones. I've played this instrument at Amherst and other medieval gigs, and have only had one complaint about the chrome tuning machines (hence, the changeover to wooden heads), but this was from a person who plays a portative organ not with the hand pumped bellows but hooked up to a vacuum cleaner motor. Go figure. Rebecca Arkenberg = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:51:47 -0800 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: [HG] What' this list about anyway? O.K. Randy, Don't think I Didn't think about your contribution of the last word to the first verse! I was Trying to be nice about RT. Diana :-)))))) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:45:06 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request At 11:38 PM 11/30/01 -0800, you wrote: Thanks for the info, everyone. Alden, I used the word "replica" without much thought as to how it could be interpreted. I just don't know if this person really wants an authentic "replica" (there, I said it!), or if she would be satisfied with the basic look and sound without worrying about modern advances. I can't seem to find a current website for Bernard Ellis; anyone know how to contact him? ~ Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies 7 Grove Street Camden, Maine 04843 phone/fax: 207-236-9576 email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle -------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:29:26 EST From: Trackorg _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request Bernard Ellis is deceased. He died last year....very suddenly after an illness. His entire business is closed. I am in communication with his widow, Megan. It was all very sad. Sincerely, Brother Mark Holy Trinity Friary = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:46:33 +0100 From: Alexander Engel <artengel _at_ aon.at> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request Dear Matt, I have to tell you and the hurdy-gurdy-list that Bernard Ellis died. I can't remember when, because I only knew his homepage with beautiful pictures of his instruments. with kind regards alexander engel PS. I am a silent reader of the list for a short time, i will start a workshop of different string instrument but I am still in the period of experiment and completing the workshop. ............................................................... alexander engel a u s t r i a electronic mail artengel _at_ aon.at = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:53:10 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: [HG] medieval synfonia "replica" Did the list start a "joke of the year contest"?....:o). ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:58:09 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] medieval synfonia request Chris Allen, who lives in Wales makes synfonies here's his web address: http://www.luthiers60.freeserve.co.uk/instruments.html He has done repair work on both my hurdy-gurdies and my renaissance lute and i'm very pleased with his craftmanship Nicholas = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia "replica" --- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote: > > Did the list start a "joke of the year > contest"?....:o). I'm not aware of it, but I believe your description of demonstrating the various parts, especially the "cruel version" is still firmly in first place. ;-) Roy Trotter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:22:13 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy In a message dated 11/12/01 2:54:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it writes: (by the way, I think that hurdy-gurdies are relatively less expensive than several other instruments). I can't think of any instrument that is relatively more expensive than a hurdy gurdy -- if the average cost of a *decent* hurdy gurdy is US $2,500 - $3,000, aside from maybe custom-ordered instruments. The cost of hurdy gurdies make them prohibitive as instruments for the casual player, unless you buy one of the inexpensive kits. A 1980 vintage Gibson Les Paul sells at my local musical instrument shop for $1,700. Quality acoustic guitars, electric basses, banjos and mandolins are in the $1,000 - $1,500 range. A quality intermediate sterling silver concert flute is under $2,000. Jake Conte __ Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style. Callithumpian Band on mp3: www.mp3.com/callithumpianband Rock band playing English, Irish, Scottish, Breton, Galician and Asturian Music = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:22:16 -1000 From: Don V.Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy If you take into account the time, materials and knowledge needed to make each instrument you mentioned, per hour labor will come out very close. A good modern violin, for example, would cost $5000 and upwards. Don donvlax _at_ maui.net <http://www.mauiviolin.com> PMB 503, PO Box 959, Kihei, HI, 96753 808-875-8794 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:16:30 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Don, I've seen violins for as little as US $100 to well over $10,000, but the comment was "relative." Maybe "relative" needs to be defined as I'm sure a very good playing violin can be bought for under $2,000. I've also seen concert flutes for as little as US $200 to a "professional" model for $3,000. And, I'm not certain, but "really good" flutes can go over $10,000. So, maybe we have to define what "relative" is. I was going uinder the assumption that an "intermediate" quality hurdy gurdy costs $2,500 - $3,500 and a "professional" model costs $5,000 - $6,000. Since I deal with "typical" instruments on a day-to-day basis (guitars, electric basses, mandolins, banjos, drums, brass and woodwind instruments), these were the criteria I used for "relative." Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:00:49 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hi Jake > I can't think of any instrument that is relatively > more expensive than a > hurdy gurdy My suggestion is: try to built a "decent" instrument and then write me again....:o) I'm a not professional musical instrument builder so my experience is not so wide but I can make 4 "decent" guitars in the same time I need to make a "decent" hurdy-gurdy. > Quality acoustic guitars, electric basses, > banjos and mandolins are > in the $1,000 - $1,500 range. so...one HG should cost 4000-6000.....as I told you: HG are less expensive! :o) Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:32:56 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Dear Jake, I just can't pass this one up. A good guitar builder can make 4 guitars in the time it takes to build one good hurdy-gurdy and the guitar does not need the additional setup time required for a hurdy-gurdy once construction is complete. Setup time ranges from 8 to 15 hours depending on the instrument (sometimes more). So if the guitar builder is selling for an average of $1,500 which is what a well built guitar sells for in this neck of the woods. A guitar builder needs relatively few tools to practice his trade and many of the parts for the instrument are available ready made. So, four guitars get the luthier $6,000 and the overhead is considerably less. And as much respect as I have for a well-built guitar, it is like making a tinkertoy figure in comparison with a steel high rise. The guitar builder is actually making a whole lot more per hour than a hurdy-gurdy builder. Quite frankly I could make more per hour working for McDonalds. I build for love and for a subsistence living, in fact, around here we call it a lifestyle choice rather than a living. Now if you really want to talk about expensive instruments, lets talk about violin and bow makers. And have you priced cellos lately? :-)-----Cali Hackmann = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:47:09 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy I need to add one more piece to this. A reasonably cheap guitar can be played and make music which will not offend the ears. I have played little plastic song flutes that made pleasant music for the average listener. With a hurdy-gurdy it either is made well and works or it doesn't. Not much space in between. I have seen and played some beautifully appointed hurdy-gurdies that were lovely wall-art, but not musical instruments. And with the hurdy-gurdy the last thing you do is string and adjust the instrument. Unlike a guitar or violin which can be strung up "in the white" and a pretty good estimate of its final tone can be judged, the hurdy-gurdy can't be play until it is finished. So if you build a "dud" you don't know until you have put 450 hours into it. This can be a very painful lesson. :-)----Cali Hackmann = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:12:09 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: [HG] criteria used for "relative." A "decent" hurdy-gurdy must be made (and adjusted) by hands only, and with the help of lot of hardare... Do you think it's enough? Another thing: a 3000 $ "basic" HG can play as good as a 6000 $ "beautiful" HG...so if you don't mind about it, you can play a "good sound, not so good looking" instrument.....You can't do the same with violins or gambas of recorders, or guitars....thry all are always "beautiful"....if you know what I mean. Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:42:39 -0500 From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Price ... This hits the real issue. As long as demand for HGs is (numerically) low, there is no way for the price to come down. *If* there were tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people demanding good-quality low-priced HGs then the price could (and would) come down. It is all simple economics. Could someone make a good HG for under $1000 (marginal unit cost)? Yes, but they'd probably have to spend $1,000,000 to get there and since they are unlikely to sell 1000 HGs they wouldn't even be at the break-even point. When someone can sell 10,000 or 100,000 instruments though, then this sort of thing becomes possible. The difficulty lies partially in the instrument (aside from construction issues). Not everyone can play HG (i.e., they don't have the patience, the coordination, or something else), where it seems like every dumb punk out there has played guitar for a garage band. Guitars are just easier (and, to be honest, more versatile), so there is a mass market for them and that $1,000,000 can be recouped in volume. Without the volume the HG won't ever be an industrial commodity. I agree with Henry. I like the fact that this is something not mass produced. As much as I love the HG if every pop band out there used one I would find the HG to have lost some of its appeal. Regards, Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:54:34 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Rob McConnell Just to throw my two cents in here regarding the costs of musical instruments and HGs in particular. It is inappropriate and unfair to compare the price of custom built HGs with flutes, violins, brand name guitars or other major market instruments. These instruments, even the high end expensive models, are all the result of some kind of manufactory, rather then built by hand. They take advantage of mass buying, autimation, cheap labour. If there were 100,000 HGs sold every year then you would see the range of prices you see on these other instruments, from cheap through to inexpensice through to very expensive. The fact that HGs are not a main stream instrument means that you have to go to specialized custom builders for a good instrument. No matter how you slice it a HG takes a lot of time to build. I would say from experience to do so in less then 150 hours would be very surprising. Even at 100 hours at $25.00 per hour plus materials, you can do the math and see where the cost comes from. And out of this the custom builder has to support himself, his family and cover his overhead. These people have to make a living or they will disappear. It is the unfortunate situation in our society that craftsmanship is rarely appreciated by the majority of people, and rarely given the value it deserves. Bottom line is that if you can't afford the price of a custom built HG then look for alternatives, but don't ever think these prices are unreasonable. Kits offer one alternative, another is a course I took in Austria last summer. I got a very nice HG and a week of instruction for around US$1,000.00. Nothing to compare with some of the custom builders around, but a servicable instrument. We made a holiday out of it and had a great time. By the way, during that week I invested about 90 hours of labour, and a significant number of the parts were already fabricated, needing only finishing. On the custom built guitar front, if there are luthiers out there selling there guitars for $1,500.00 or less then they are either amateurs, part time builders, supplementing their income from somewhere, selling at a loss trying to make a name for themselves, living with their parents, not really making custom built gutars but rather assembled guitars having lots of pre-fabricated purcahsed parts,or won't be in business long. I have first hand knowledge of this because my son is a buddding luthier and a very good one. He has studied with Jose Romanillos and makes exciting, excellent guitars. In order to make a decent living at $1,500 per guitar he would have to make 40 to 50 guitars a year. There is no way you can do this without jigging up to the point where you have a small factory which defeats the purpose of custom building, or charge more for your guitars. Check out the successful small builders of guitars and they are charging a lot more then $1,500.00 per instrument. Rob McC = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:35:37 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Price ... Hi, Even if I only made one HG in my life and never bought one I just can not resist jumping in this discussion <g> HGs are not like guitars , face the facts. 99 % of all guitars in use today were made in factories and were sold in stores . The single idea of selling HGs at wholesale price to a store is at best weird . CAMAC co. tried it is the mid '70 in France and it did not work . The dream of an affordable ( read :dirt cheap ) beginners model is just that : a dream ( wich is still better than a nightmare: http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY& Store_Code=MK&Category_Code=Hu Does somebody remember the " dulci-gurdy " ? ) The fact that an experienced maker like Kurt Reichman is still trying leave a lot of people wondering..... If it is possible to make Chinese violins, Korean pianos and Pakistani bagpipes , the idea of a HG factory in Taiwan could be , in theory, possible . But the market is very different , the Korean piano factories have not yet ( as far as I know ) proposed low priced harpsichords to the musically starving masses . Folk and early music instruments are not yet an industrial commodity . The player still buys his instrument from the maker from direct contact with the luthier.. Just to make things worse .... I mean , more interesting , One can not just buy a HG and start to play , at least not for very long , or call the piano tuner for an annual visit . The player has to learn the basic maintenance of the instrument . All this make the HG very special and to tell the truth : I like it that way . Henry Boucher ( ...but cheaper bass drone strings would not hurt <g>) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:49:00 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy gurdy community In a message dated 12/6/01 7:44:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, fenevad _at_ ttt.org writes: >I agree with Henry. I like the fact that this is something not mass >produced. >As much as I love the HG if every pop band out there used one I would find >the HG to have lost some of its appeal. I agree totally. I don't own a hurdy gurdy yet as I've been patiently waiting two years for mine to be built. I've also never held one and have noticed that the hurdy gurdy community seems like a close-knit, world-wide community that is very passionate about their instrument. I haven't seen this intense passion for any other instrument. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:15:50 -0800 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon The Hurdy-Gurdy in Eighteenth-Century France (Publications of the Early Music Institute) by Robert A. Green anyone ever heard of it? I have a CD of Mr. Green's that has a lot of baroque sounding courtesan music on it. Bob Mackie hoping to build an hg and not make too much a mess = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:56:30 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon If you want Green's book I suggest you order it from Boulder Music. http://www.bems.com It could be ages before you get it from Amazon. Boulder won't charge you tax and it will come in a reasonable amount of time. BTW I don't work for Boulder. I have just ordered enough things from Amazon to be totally disenchanted. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:58:16 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon I wrote a review of this book for the Hurdy-Gurdy Society newsletter a few years ago. It's pretty much on the scholarly side, a little dry for the average reader. ;-) I'd recommend it for a baroque music player, or for someone interested in a Really Complete hurdy-gurdy library. I'm surprised it's still available - I thought it was out of print, and the editor at Indiana University Press indicated to me that they had no intent of reprinting. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:47:00 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hi. RE: too expensive. It's not easy to make a Hurdy Gurdy. A year ago I suddenly yearned, I think insanity like this either genetic or there was something in the water at Fort Flagler, to make my own instrument. My progress is s-l-o-w but sure. Marcello and Alden are helping me learn the basics. At every step I need a new piece of equipment I can't afford. Hobby-class planners cost $350, routers, $150, Bandsaws, $350 and on and on and on. The price of the machinery needed by the professional luthier is VASTLY steeper. Unless you intend to whiddle one, good luck, the serious luthier needs to either take out a loan or rob a bank to get the bucks to equip the shop. By the time I finish, and I'm just a hack making an HG that may not work at all, I could have bought the best HG made by the indubitable Indianola duo. Seriously, give some thought to what it means to make a business of making musical instruments. First of all the perspective luthier has to learn how to do it. That means learning to use the equipment before you learn to make the instrument. It takes time to learn to use equipment. High School shop class one semester isn't enough. If you think managing a bandsaw, a table saw, a router is a snap, I suggest you carefully conside how fond you are of the current length of your fingers. While learning about equipment he/she reads everything about the craft. Problem is the books are all, or mostly all in French or German. So....want to learn to make a Gurdy? then learn to read French and German in your spare time. Once you kinda have the idea down then take six months to a year or longer to apprentice yourself to a builder who will actually show you how to do what you've been reading about. Let me tell you as a VERY NOVICE, NoviceLuthier, it is quite a different thing to make a part from a drawing or paragraph's description, than to make one after being shown what to do. Hummmm? How do you make a living while apprenticing? Once you think you know what to do, you have to practice what you think you know and ruin a lot of instruments because you don't know what you thought you knew. Time passes. Still no $$$$. Since making gurdies is not the same as making "some" other instruments, you can't just make one out of a sheet of plywood like you can a dulcimer or other folk instruments. It won't play . Sooooo, you have to practice on some pretty pricy woods. If you screw up, $350 just went down the drain. That money and all the other money came from savings you set aside from another job. I'm just making one instrument and money is leaking out all over the place. All this takes time and during that time the professional luthier is not earning a sou. Days, nights, weeks, months, years go into learning and practicing until the characteristics of the instrument begin to become second nature and in the end, maybe the luthier(s) discover they are making beautiful instuments and they still can't make a living at it. Maybe, perish the thought, she or he still works at a full time job doing something else. I know five instrument builders, every one of them makes beautiful instruments, all but one has another full time job. Weekends off? What weekends? Vacations? Oh yeah, that's the time you spend 18 hrs a day filling orders. On top of all this, a failed instrument takes just as much time to make as one that plays like the very angels sing and nobody gives the luthier the time back. The only problem with the instrument might have happened because you were very tired the night you made part number 99d.4.098 or maybe you spent 15 hours on the wheel and your hand slipped or you looked away or you were just tired and now you have to make the part all over again. When's the last time any one of us cut a perfect circle out of paper let alone wood. Most of us can't cut oranges into neat little wedges yet alone get the back of a lute-back to come out right. All those itty bitty thingies that make up a goodie gurdie take a lot of time, care and precision. If they're not made with love, they don't turn out. It doesn't take many tiny errors to add up to a purdy nurdy gurdy. Gosh. Am I on a soap box or something!!! I guess so, but really, the price is not outrageous for the work that goes into the beasties. Once finished the warrantee on the hand-made instrument from you local builder is usually for life. Unless you back over your Gurdy Baby or slam it in the car door, Cali and Alden will usually hone and tweek and fix and tinker with it until it plays again. If the Gurdy isn't working when for some unknown reason you managed to turn a perfectly wonderful instrument into a sqwak box because of something you didn't know you were doing until Cali and Alden pointed out what you did, they fix it. Just try that with a mail order instrument or a kit. Alden and Cali and Marcello have tinkered with my baby minstrel many times. Problem? A squeek. There's a mouse in the box I say. Hummmmm? they say. They listen, listen, listen as they turn, turn turn. Ummmmmm! they say. Presto, fixo, years of building and reading and learning and just messing around with the instrument lead them to the most likely cause. The price to me? A one time free, no money down and no money back guarantee of momentary humiliation when I realize what an idiot I am. I shoulda known what was daMatta. So. When we buy from a luthier we are not just paying for the instrument he or she puts in our hands the day we take delivery (with or without a pink or blue blanket.) We are paying for years of learning when they didn't make a dime while spending every cent they could beg, borrow or steal on equipment. We're also paying for their willingness to take a risk on becoming luthiers when we preferred to make a living doing something a lot more sure fire. In the end, they have the hands of surgeons the heads of physicists and the hearts of creative artists. In case you haven't noticed, creative artists don't make a &^## of a lot of money in our culture. Put it into perspective with just one example. Six months ago I had to replace a crown on a tooth that had broken. It broke because the root was ill so I had to pay an endodontist as well. I paid a total of $2650.89 to my dentist and endodontist. My dentist spent an hour and 45 minutes with me. The endodonist spent an hour. There was the cost of the gold, the lab fees for the lost wax cast of the crown (just one little piece of hand crafted metal versus the many in a Gurdy) and about an hour of finish work by the dentist before he seated the crown. Cali and Alden probabably spent as much time learning to be luthiers as my dentist spent learning to be a dentist. I doubt their outlay for equipment is a whole lot cheaper than his, but they don't make the same money. Of course I can still chew if they screw up, but there are days when I think it might be better if I chewed less. ;-) I paid for the dentist's expertise and the reality they did something for me I couldn't hope to do for myself. Well, I could have pulled out my own tooth, but wouldn't have been fun. I like the crown. It makes chewing easier. I love the Gurdy. It makes life easier. If you are still reading, my advise is to get on the list of your local builder before it gets even longer, pay the deposit, it's often mostly refundable, and start to save your money. A good HG from a good luthier will probably take several months waiting time on a list and a few months to build. Trust me, you'll have plenty of time to save your money. :-) My root canal and crown would pay for a Volksgurdy plus case, tuner and strap and I don't have to stare in my mouth with a flashlight to see my Hurdy Gurdy. CYA all at the Gurdy Play day Joan D'Andrea = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:59:37 -0800 From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon Yes I have read it. It is not going to replace Harry Potter on the all time sales list. But if you want to find out about Baroque Music and the Hurdy Gurdy there are not too many books out there to read. You will learn a lot. Also try to learn Itialian and get a copy of Marcello Bono's book La Ghironda 1989, no ISBN, published by Arnoldo Forni Editore, Bologna, Italy r.t. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:04:53 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon I got the book (ISBN 0-253-20942-0) : it worth all the effort and money! Forget the CD: the book is FAR better than those. Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:17:53 -0800 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press Robert A Green CD 18th Century French Music For Hurdy Gurdy http://www.google.com/search?q=Robert+A.+Green+Hurdy+Gurdy&btnG=Google+Searc h A few recordings of the vielle music of the French baroque are available. One by Robert Green himself, French Music for Hurdy-Gurdy (FOCUS {USA} 932), includes a survey of original vielle works, including compositions by Joseph Bodin de Boismortier, Michel Corrette, Jean-Baptiste Dupuits, Philbert de Lavigne, and A. Tolou, as well as 18th-century arrangements of two pieces by François Couperin. It is interesting that few, if any, of the pieces which Green speaks of most highly (or in most detail) in his book are represented in his recording. As an example, after spending more space on the composer Jean-Baptiste Dupuits than on any other, and speaking with such praise of his Pièces de caractère (Op.5; 1741), Green represents Dupuits on his recording by only one such character piece.4 This piece, Le Guerrière, is quite interesting in its sequential exchange of dance-like triplet figurations with military-fanfare motifs in duple time, but seems perhaps a minor work compared to pièces de caractère such as ones as musically complex as L'Unique and Le Labyrinthe, which Green describes in his text. try finding it in the above href. I connnot remember which online music source I got mine from, although I do think it was Canadian. Bob Mackie = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:37:52 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Great post, Joan! Now can you refer me to a good dental school? ;-) ;-) Alden (and Cali) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:51:19 -0800 From: David Echelard <echelard _at_ hbci.com> Subject: Re: [HG] I got mine from IU press I ordered mine via telephone calling directly to Indiana university press. And as a member of "early music America" I received a discount and It was sent to me in 5 days ....and its been a great resource. Where can A person get his cd? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:58:00 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon Very interesting but... really aimed at the baroque repertoire , not much about the instrument itself . Amazon does not have it in stock ,they order it and then ship it to you , I waited a few months for mine . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:20:33 +0000 From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk> Subject: [HG] hurdy gurdy "trial" While looking through Cambridge University Library catalogue, I came across this intriguing entry: Author: Sampson, William, 1764-1836 Title: A faithful report of the trial of Hurdy Gurdy [microform]: tried and convicted of a seditious libel in the Court of King's Bench, on the testimony of French Horn, the approver: with the arguments of counsel, and the charge of the learned chief justice to the jury New-York: Published and sold by Bernard Dornin, 1806 39 p Notes: Microfiche: Worcester, Mass.: American Antiquarian Society, [199-?]. 1 microfiche ; 11 x 15 cm. (Early American imprints. Second series ; no. 10383) References: Shaw & Shoemaker 10383 Has anyone heard of this, or seen it before? Is it worth the time for me to get the library to extract it from the microfilm? Thanks, Dave = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:46:50 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] hurdy gurdy "trial" Dear David, I think there is mention of this in Susann Palmer's book ~ I check over the weekend and report back regards nicholas = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:57:35 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: [HG] 18th century HG music list Dear friends At last my revised list of "baroque HG music" is ready: the old one was in my own book that is becoming too old (just like me...) You can find it here www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045/musica.html I hope you like it, and I hope you'll help me with suggestions, corrections and informations. Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:27:03 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon Hi again. I found Green's book at Powell's on line. Same price, three days delivery, no tax, shipping not included. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:31:01 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy OK Alden. Bu you already have a fulltime second job. ;-/ Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:12:40 -0600 From: Patricia A. Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com> Subject: [HG] new address Hi, folks, I have a new email address listed in address heading. Please delete my old one because I'm getting some messages in duplicate. BTW, as someone who's participated in ferry demos of Scottish folk dancing, a ferry concert doesn't sound strange to me. Trish = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:26:25 -0800 From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy I can think of a lot of instruments that are a lot more expensive than my Hurdy-Gurdy and are in the mainstream as instruments go. First off you can buy a very nice instrument from Olympic Musical Instrument for around $1,000. Those of us who own their Minstrel Hurdy-Gurdies are extremely satisfied with the quality and capabilities of the instument. They are attractive, extremely stable (rarely needs more than a tweek to tune them, even when playing outside in the heat or cold), and have a chien. Anyway, a decent clarinet or oboe costs $3,500 dollars, more for a professional or custom instrument. A good flute is $1,500 and a French Horn is $2,700. We aren't even looking at harps, harpsichords, pianos, lutes, or any number of more obscure instruments. People who are "into" instruments will spend a lot of money for quality instruments. If a HG is good, paying $2,500 or more is well worth it. As the old addage goes: you get what you pay for. But with the Olympic Musical Instrument's Minstrel HG you get more than you pay for (as compared to other $1,000 hurdy-gurdies). There is a lot work put into a hurdy-gurdy and a lot of research and development. Guitars, when compared to some other instruments are "easy" to build. There is alot more hand work that has to be done on the HG, so it is reasonable to expect them to cost more. Well, that's my $.02 worth. Katie Roe My soul can find no staircase to heaven unless it be through Earth's loveliness. -Michelangelo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:13:42 -0000 From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy I have to throw in my two pennyworth (or cents, depending which side of the pond you are on) It is really unfair to compare mass-produced instruments to craftsman-built ones. A concertina (English style rather than Anglo) which is at the "lower" end of the price range will probably cost in the region of £400. My Wheatstone 48 key aeola is insured for over five times that amount. Yes there is a difference and I consider myself fortunate to own it. In every musical instrument there is a "basic" form which may play true notes but that doesn't mean it's any good. A craftsman puts the "soul" into the instrument. That's his craft - otherwise he would be a carpenter if his/her instrument lacked that special quality. I would doubt that many orchestra players have instruments "off the shelf"for the same reason. The cost of the HG would not come down if demand increased. We would just get soulless lumps of wood making noises churned out by a factory and probably checked by someone with a tin ear. OK, I'm off my soap-box now. Colin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:44:24 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy In a message dated 12/7/01 2:26:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com writes: I can think of a lot of instruments that are a lot more expensive than my Hurdy-Gurdy and are in the mainstream as instruments go. First off you can buy a very nice instrument from Olympic Musical Instrument for around $1,000. I don't doubt that thia instrument ia of very good quality but, if I'm correct, it is very limited in what it can do. I know I'm opening up myself for bombardment, but a diatonic instrument (to me, at least) is very limited in what it can do and what it can be used for. Anyway, a decent clarinet or oboe costs $3,500 dollars, more for a professional or custom instrument. A good flute is $1,500 and a French Horn is $2,700. We aren't even looking at harps, harpsichords, pianos, lutes, or any number of more obscure instruments. People who are "into" instruments will spend a lot of money for quality instruments. Again, "decent" and "relative" are very vague and subjective descriptions. From what I've seen in catalogs, a $3,500 clarinet, a $1,500 flute and a $2,700 French horn are slightly more than *decent* instruments, as I can get a *decent* flute for about $700 - $800. I don't know much about clarinets and French horns, but I would guess they are comparable. I'm not questioning the cost of a hurdy gurdy (as I have one on order). I was questioning the use of the term "relative." Those of us who live in the real world, the cost of a good quality hurdy gurdy is very expensive compared to the instruments we play every day. I play acoustic and electric guitars, mandolin, electric 5-string bass, bowed psaltery, tenor and 6-string banjo and a variety of keyboards and synthesizers and none approach the cost of a hurdy gurdy. And I know that when I finally have my own hurdy gurdy in my hands that it will be my favourite of all my instruments. As I said before I've not seen the passion people have for their instruments as I've seen of hurdy gurdy players. Or are they hurdy gurdiests? Or hurdy gurdii? Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:01:02 -0800 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Could someone please volunteer to tell me where the sound that the trompette/chien comes from when the hg player makes the coup with their wrist that generates the vibration for it? Is it the fitting the key is in (the actual chien) or is it the trompette string rattling around in the bridge? Or what? I am not very close physically to somewhere that I can have a look for myself, the closest I probably am to any Hgs at all would be the Hackman's shop. Thanks in advance Bob Mackie challenged not only by dollars on hand, but by distance, too. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:10 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> Subject: AW: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon Hi Bob, it`s great if you want to know something about baroque HG music. greetings Petra = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:41:40 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> To: Hurdygurdymailinglist [something missing] he coup there´s an acceleration of the wheel which makes the string vibrate a bit more, which makes the little wooden "feet" move and "beat" fastly on the soundboard. greetings Petra . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:38:52 -0500 From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <fournierbru _at_ securenet.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? The buzzing is caused by the rattling of the bridge holding the trompette onto the top of the instrument. The bridge actually sits on one leg, the other leg being shorter and therefore rattling. The princinple is the same as the Trumpet Marine (tromba marina). Bruno Cognyl-Fournier (Lute player not yet a hurdy gurdy player) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:58:49 -0800 From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Ahhhh! Just as I suspected. It is NOT metaphysical in nature. There is a mechanical thing happening here. the legs/feet that the chien bridge has under it (never to be seen in photos of Hg's) jump up and down excitedly on the soundboard at or near the tail piece when the coup is performed. thanks to Bruno and Petra, both (so far) Bob Mackie = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:03:27 EST From: Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hello Alden and Cali! Please make note of my new e-mail address and add it to the HG list. My aol account will be closing as of the middle of this month. Also you will be able to contact me via my new address when you get to making my hurdy gurdy, which I can't wait for and am looking forward to! Oh . . . did I mention that I can't wait for my HG?!#%^&*# _at_ $!!!!!!! Thanks so much and I hope you're both doing well this holiday season! :) Judy Laub = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:43:54 -0800 From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: [HG] Ebay Listing Dear list, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that there's an HG for sale on Ebay. Its item number is 1494038793. Looks like a real beauty - the description says it was built about 1850 by Colson a Mirecourt. I like the arrogant French scowl on the carved head. Anyway... I would also like to inform the group that my own instrument construction project is drawing to a close. It's taken over two years, as well as massive parts and assistance from the Hackmanns, but now my pathetic Musicmaker's kit should finally be completed in all its array of glorious improvements! (Hopefully it will function.) Expect a birth announcement before the end of January. Then I'll have to wrestle with actually learning how to play it! And here's my tuppenceworth (as they'd say in Mary Poppins) on HG cost: In my case, I spent only about $1000 to build this thing, but I already had a craftsman's tools and experience in my father, and Alden probably lost money selling me those parts. Like many of you, I personally enjoy the fact that hardly anyone (especially in the US) plays HG, and some a high cost is literally the price you pay for such uniqueness. Hopefully I can acquire a professional one someday. As long as the one I'm making works, though, the bother of building is enjoyable in and of itself! Catch you all later... Sincerely, Nathan Roy = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 00:23:15 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Allan Janus I have the Robert Green CD - for the list's listening pleasure I've uploaded Dupuits "La Guerrière" in Realaudio format: http://janusmuseum.org/audio/guerriere.ram Allan Janus = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 00:44:28 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Jake said: >I don't doubt that thia instrument ia of very good quality but, if I'm >correct, it is very limited in what it can do. I know I'm opening up >myself for bombardment, but a diatonic instrument (to me, at least) is >very limited in what it can do and what it can be used for. The standard Minstrel is chromatic, and for just a little more money we provide the full 2-octave keyboard (13 lower keys, 10 upper keys, just like the larger instruments.) The scale length is the same as our other instruments and those of most other makers, 344 mm, so there's no problem in moving to a larger instrument and having to relearn the key relationships. We offer the Symphonie as a diatonic model, but so far everyone has ordered it with chromatic keys. The Minstrel has the trompette, a lower drone, and a chromatic keybox. They're also very stable, much less finicky than the larger instruments. What more does one really need to learn to play? ;-) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:04:18 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Bob said: >Ahhhh! Just as I suspected. It is NOT metaphysical in nature. There >is a mechanical thing happening here. the legs/feet that the chien >bridge has under it (never to be seen in photos of Hg's) jump up and >down excitedly on the soundboard at or near the tail piece when the >coup is performed. Not quite. This is my understanding of How the Chien Works. The chien is composed of (among other things) the front foot, the head, the back feet, and the tail. The tail is what fits in the little slot in the mouche bridge, so it's out of sight in the photographs. The back feet rest against the junction between the soundboard and the mouche bridge. The head has the little slot in it that the string rests in. The front foot rests on the soundboard, below the head. When the wheel is moving fast enough (whether quickly accelerated, in a short coup, or rotated quickly in the coup gras) the friction of the rosin on the wheel is sufficient to lift the trompette string up. This lifts the chien head and front foot up, pivoting on the back feet, so that the front foot is lifted off the soundboard. At some point the string reaches its limit of stretching upwards out of shape, and the string tension temporarily overcomes the force of friction of the rosin on the wheel. When the string slips down along the wheel, the chien goes back down, and the front foot hits the soundboard. Tap. The lifting and falling steps are repeated as long as the wheel is moved quickly enough, producing a tap-tap-tap-tap sound. We perceive this as a buzzing sound, because it's happening too fast to hear the individual impacts. We've studied this phenomenon with frequency spectrum analysis, and some of the results gave an indication of what the frequency of tapping is, but so far we haven't really been able to see it clearly. A really fast video or movie camera could do it, but we don't have access to one yet. (I keep hoping that some physics or engineering student in need of a master's thesis project will get interested in the HG, and offer to study how the chien really works, but no takers so far...) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:40:09 -0000 From: frank vickers <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk> Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Hi I believe that some of Dr Daniel Wolverson's physics students at Bath University are studying the chien and (knowing Daniel) will probably be measuring the very stuff you're talking about. I'll try to find out a bit more from him. Frank = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:26:10 +0100 From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de> Subject: [HG] First Questions Hi everyone, I'm new to the list. I want to learn to play hg. But first, I think, I have to buy an instrument. I did find out a lot about the hg from books and from the internet, but there are still some questions I have: First, there are very different instruments available and sometimes it seems to me, that every instrument should be individually made for its player. But then there are there typical ones (I think) with two melody strings, one trumpet string, three drone strings and several resonating strings, say four. On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3 trumpet strings, 6 drones and 12 resonating strings. What is the difference in sound and play? Or, what else is the difference? I came to like the sound of the hg from the CD of Aligot Elements. Unfortunately the sound on the CD is not typical I think. Is it the instrument or the mixing technique that makes that sound? Or is the sound of some French instruments very different from others? How important for you is it to play the instrument before buying it. Is it ok to buy a used one? What can go wrong? Are the mechanics so different that you have to try? (Anyway, I wouldn't know how it should feel) Is the sound so different that you have to hear? Guido = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 11:27:15 -0000 From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? A further thought. When the chien starts its buzz, the foot lifts off the soundboard. The resulting change of angle of the chien increases the pressure of the trompette string on the wheel. This would explain why on a well set up instrument, once the initial coup has been made, a continuous buzz can be played with virtually no increase in wheel speed. Neil Brook, hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:26:59 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy In a message dated 12/8/01 3:45:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, hurdy _at_ silverlink.net writes: We offer the Symphonie as a diatonic model, but so far everyone has ordered it with chromatic keys. I apologize. I thought the Symphonie was only diatonic. Jake: happily awaiting the birth of his "baby" gurdy. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 00:44:50 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Ebay Listing Nathan said: >I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that there's an HG for sale on >Ebay. Its item number is 1494038793. Looks like a real beauty - the >description says it was built about 1850 by Colson a Mirecourt. I like the >arrogant French scowl on the carved head. I've seen this one come up for sale there before. I don't think it sold, but the bids got up to $2500 or so, if I remember. Many of the Mirecourt instruments have really nice heads. We've started to make castings of them, so that we have a 3-dimensional record as well as photographs. We're working on restoring a Colson luteback right now, which is in better shape than the one on eBay. If anyone on the list is serious about bidding on this instrument, please talk to us so you have an idea of what is involved in getting it playable. Mirecourt-made lutebacks are fairly rare, and can be quite nice, and this might be just the instrument for you, but the expenses of moving it from cool antique to cool playable antique can be quite substantial. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:01:00 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Dear Guido, Welcome to the HG list. I hope I can address some of your questions. >First, there are very different instruments available and sometimes it seems >to me, that every instrument should be individually made for its player. But >then there are there typical ones (I think) with two melody strings, one >trumpet string, three drone strings and several resonating strings, say >four. >On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3 trumpet strings, 6 >drones and 12 resonating strings. >What is the difference in sound and play? >Or, what else is the difference? >I came to like the sound of the hg from the CD of Aligot Elements. >Unfortunately the sound on the CD is not typical I think. >Is it the instrument or the mixing technique that makes that sound? >Or is the sound of some French instruments very different from others? I don't know this recording. Can you describe the sound, or other recordings you've heard with a similar sound? Who is the player? Similar instruments by different makers can sound very different. Similar instruments by the same maker can sound very different. The same instrument set up by two players can sound very different. The same instrument played by two players without any adjustment can sound very different. Recordings of the same instrument with the same player can sound very different, dependant on micing technique, microphones, studio acoustics, mixing, post-production processing, etc. You get the idea. There are a lot of variables. >How important for you is it to play the instrument before buying it. >Is it ok to buy a used one? >What can go wrong? >Are the mechanics so different that you have to try? (Anyway, I wouldn't >know how it should feel) The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test the instrument for you. I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost? >Is the sound so different that you have to hear? Definitely, but the sound can change a lot with setup. An instrument that hasn't been well maintained will sound really awful, and you'll say to yourself, "I really don't want to buy that piece of junk." In fact it may not be a piece of junk, but a beautiful instrument owned by a person who doesn't know how to play or maintain it. On the other hand it may be a piece of junk. An experienced player will be able to tell, or to play with it to find out. Since you don't play yet, you still need to learn how to do this. Bon chance! Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:06:32 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Neil says: >When the chien starts its buzz, the foot lifts off the soundboard. The >resulting change of angle of the chien increases the pressure of the >trompette string on the wheel. Then how is the buzzing sound produced? The front foot has to contact the soundboard to make a sound, n'est ce pas? Then the chien is back where it was before: on the soundboard. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:11:26 +0100 From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Hi Alden You described the physical happenings of the trumpet very clearly!! I also compare it with an electic doorbell in a way as you have the magnent and the electric disconnection on off on off......... When you talked about frequencies I rememberd a curious thing years ago: At the time when we recorded LPs on casettes you had to take out the dolby when you recorded hg-music, because the trumpet wasn't to hear good, that means there is something sounding around 12 000 waves per second, I also have realized with pick up systems that the average voltage on a piezo is around 50 to 100 mV, when buzzing it can go up to 700 mV. My Gallien Krueger acoustic amp turned down the volume with the limiter, so this amp was not good for hg, especially with my spially designend preamps. What are your experiences?? Greetings and a SLOW X-mas to you all on the list Helmut = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:28:11 -0000 From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? I agree with all of Alden's theory of bowing, my point is that once the foot of the chien tilts, the string is momentarily brought into closer contact with the wheel as opposed to normal bowing where the pressure remains the same. This effect will draw the string further round the circumference of the wheel effectively bowing the string harder. The string then slips allowing the foot to strike the soundboard . As to the frequency of tapping, I would have thought it to be the frequency of the string pitch. Neil Brook, hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:43:34 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Looking for hurdy gurdy teacher in or near New Jersey I would like to contact someone in New Jersey or Eastern Pennsylvania or the New York City area willing to give me some basic lessons on playing a hurdy gurdy. Are there any instructional videos or audio courses? All this talk of relative costs (that I started anyway) becomes moot when you've been informed that your very own hurdy gurdy is being built. This will be a very Happy Christmas for me. As I said before no one instrument can get as much passion connected to it as a hurdy gurdy. I am glad to finally join the community. Many thanks to Jake Walton and Donald Heller for getting me interested in the hurdy gurdy. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:44:03 +0100 From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions > I don't know this recording. Can you describe the sound, or other > recordings you've heard with a similar sound? Who is the player? The player of Aligot Eléments is Sylvie Mathé. I'll try to describe the sound. It's very soft. When you don't listen close to it, it sounds like bagpipes or schalmei maybe even like an oboe. It lacks the sharp formants what makes it soft. I would call the very few hg sounds I've heard a bit sturdy. In comparison this one I would call sweet. Hm, it's difficlut to describe sounds in words :) > The same instrument set up by two players can sound very different. I would think it would make a softer sound when the melody strings are not tuned too exact? Is it possible to adjust the volume of the trumpet or the drones? > The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test > the instrument for you. Does somebody know a hurdy-gurdy player in northern Germany? > I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping > lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea > culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost? That would be nice. Sounds like a lot of driving before buying :) Guido = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:18:21 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From the Listmaster: Temporary loss of email lists and website Dear list subscriber, We have just been informed that our webhosting service provider is going out of business, and we will lose our websites and email lists as of midnight tonight. We are working to restore these services to you. It's possible that we'll be able to recreate the list without any hassle, and you'll barely notice any change except for a new welcome letter. It is possible that we will be unable to recreate the list as it was before. In that event, we will email you about how to subscribe to the new list wherever it is. Please accept our apologies for this inconvenience. We hope to have it all resolved soon. Alden the Listmaster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:05:52 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press >Robert A Green CD 18th Century French Music For Hurdy Gurdy If you have Robert Green's CD, or even if you haven't, you should listen instead to the master of the Baroque hurdy-gurdy himself, list member Marcello Bono. Dr. Green plays the notes that are on the page, and Marcello plays the music. 'nuf said. Marcello has a fabulous CD, "Back to Bono", but I don't know how commercially available it is. Marcello? Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:42:24 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Dale. I have an idea. Surely you know someone who has a wreck of a boat parked on a trailer somewhere. We could paint it to look like a lute-back, attach a paper mache crank to the back and a paper mache head to the prow and haul it in a parade. At leas that way it would once afain fe afloat. :-) Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:46:18 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? That settles it. I am going to get my time lapse VCR out and aim it at the chien and then I am going to play away and see what it all looks like on freeze frame and slo-mo. Hummmm. Wasn't there a Hydroplane called Slo Mo. Trish. If you are reading this, that would make a good name for our beginners group. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:02:33 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press Alden, Don't you think Marcello needs to make sure his American friends have a way to purchase his CD??? :-) Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:14:18 -0800 From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] I got mine from IU press How do I (we) contact IU press?? Thanks, Diana = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:24:07 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press We're working on that ;-) >Don't you think Marcello needs to make sure his American friends >have a way to purchase his CD??? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:50:31 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hello, DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com: >I'm not questioning the cost of a hurdy gurdy (as I have one on order). I >was questioning the use of the term "relative." Those of us who live in the >real world, the cost of a good quality hurdy gurdy is very expensive compared >to the instruments we play every day. I play acoustic and electric guitars, >mandolin, electric 5-string bass, bowed psaltery, tenor and 6-string banjo >and a variety of keyboards and synthesizers and none approach the cost of a >hurdy gurdy. I live in the real world too. I think you are not aware of the prices of music instruments in general, you only know about instruments usually sold in music stores. Most music stores sell an assortment of the fifty cheapest popular instruments, maybe two or three popular brands of each. Try to by anything less popular than school violin, banjo, guitar and keyboard and you will find that instruments are not supermarket sellers. I would say you play "relative" cheap intruments: electric guitars, mandolin, electric bass, banjo keyboards and synthesizers are 1) factotry made mass products, and 2) for fair price comparison please include your costs for amplifying and mixing equipment and the cables, the software etc. within the price of your electric guitars, electric bass, keyboards and synthesizers. Now you will see that they are not *that* cheap. there are makers where you can get a "relative" good student hurdy gurdy (an instrument that I as a professional hurdy gurdy player and teacher can recomend) for less than 1.200 USD. My cousin just recently bought a "relative" good student bassoon for less than 4000 USD. His parents nearly jumped around because they were so happy about the price. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:10:00 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Hello, Guido tum Suden: > > The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test > > the instrument for you. > > Does somebody know a hurdy-gurdy player in northern Germany? I am not from northern germany but I am in Kiel about every other month for some days (next time from 23Jan02 on). If you send me geographical details (off list?) I can supply you with addresses of HG players in your neighbourhood, I have about 500 addresses of players in germany. > > I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping > > lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea > > culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost? Its pitty that I do not have this posting myself. > Sounds like a lot of driving before buying :) better driving *before* buying. It is easy to spend 1500 Euro without gaining a playable instrument. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:25:38 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request Hello, nice to see another Austrian added to this list, wellcome. Is it you that plays hurdy gurdy on some recording I heard at a friends ? Alexander Engel: (...) > PS. I am a silent reader of the list for a short time, i will start a > workshop of different string instrument but I am still in the period of > experiment and completing the workshop. Do you plan to build hurdy gurdies too ? hope to hear from you, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:15:39 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions In a message dated 12/9/01 3:42:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net writes: Surely you know someone who has a wreck of a boat parked on a trailer somewhere. We could paint it to look like a lute-back, attach a paper mache crank to the back and a paper mache head to the prow and haul it in a parade. At least that way it would once again be afloat. Do they let you out at night, Joan? You obviously have way too much free time or they need to increase the medication :-) Jake = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:34:01 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> Subject: AW: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Hi Helmut, some years ago I tried Gallien Krüger for my HG, because many people said it`s a very fine amplyfier. But it sounded awful with my Siorat. Especially the trumpet. Any bass amplyfier is better. At the moment I use AER acoustic amplifiers. But I think you know them. greetings Petra = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:48:56 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> Subject: AW: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hi Simon, you`re very right!!!! If you think about soprano recorders: - you can buy one for 10 USD (factory mass ware). But it wouldn`t sound nice. Maybe it wouldn`t even be playable. - you can buy one for 150 USD. Also factory mass ware, but playable and good for students. - you can buy one for 1200 USD. Hand made. That`s an instrument for solists, with a variety of technical possibilities and musical expression. Today we played a concert. Afterwards some usual people were asking for the price of HGs. They were astonished how cheap they are. greetings Petra = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:54:33 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> Subject: AW: [HG] First Questions Hello, have a look on the webpage: www.bordun.de. You`ll find a list of builders and some more informations around the HG, equipment, workshops, concerts,...you can also post questions, send informations,.... I could also tell you some adresses of HG players in Northern Germany. Just contact me off the list. By the way Volker Heidemann lives in Northern Germany since about one year. greetings Petra = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:55:16 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions He he he he he he he!!! Right. Everyone says that about me. I was thinking the boat haulers haulers could all be dressed as little gurdies and Alden could stand in the front of the boat at the helm dressed as a maestro with a whip he cracked over the haulers and he could cry out...... "On Minstrel, on on Lutey, on Breton and Boshy On Guitar, organistrum, on Symphy and Volksy. To the end of the the system To the repeat we play Then back to first measure At the fine you'll stay. Yes, Jake, "Certifiable" Tee hee. Joan ----- Original Message ----- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:59:03 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? Hey. I know a lot about dogs and they are guaranteed to bark if something buzzes in their ears. The only thing that keeps them in check in this case is the fact the string is C or D. If it were a Bee string they'd go nuts and there would be no controling them. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:42:33 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy In a message dated 12/9/01 7:49:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de writes: I would say you play "relative" cheap intruments: electric guitars, mandolin, electric bass, banjo keyboards and synthesizers are 1) factotry made mass products, and 2) for fair price comparison please include your costs for amplifying and mixing equipment and the cables, the software etc. within the price of your electric guitars, electric bass, keyboards and synthesizers. Now you will see that they are not *that* cheap. Depending on your situation, a decent amplifier can cost around US $500. These instruments are only cheap in comparison to the price of what you consider "relative." While I agree a great deal of work and love goes into making a hurdy hurdy and any other custom-made instrument, an electric guitar (Fender Strat, Gibson Les Paul, for example) selling for around $1,500 is anything but cheap. These are considered some of the best instruments in their type -- and yes, I realize, they are mass produced. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:50:23 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions And Joan responded: He he he he he he he!!! Right. Everyone says that about me. Yes, Jake, "Certifiable" Tee hee. Joan I'm glad you have a sense of humour. If I said the same thing on another list that I'm on, they would have tar-and feathered and pilloried me :-) Jake = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:07:57 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally? In a message dated 11/18/01 6:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi writes: The problem is the reliable and just method for payment & delivery of cd. Of course I would like to trust everybody and simply send cd and ask the customer to send me the payment in cash when he/she has got the cd, but maybe the world does not work that way anymore... Any ideas? Hi Esa, Our band has its CD on wwwCDstreet.com. You have to register and then you can set up a basic web page and they accept credit card purchases. As artists you will find a great deal of work in taking orders and shipping them all over the world. CDstreet.com accepts credit card purchases and, I believe, they keep 20% of each sale. That's not bad considering they are the ones taking the orders and sending them out. Good luck with your band. Jake Conte New Jersey USA __ Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive styl Order Castle Keep CDs online at: www.cdstreet.com/artists/castlekeep = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:32:22 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Dear Jake, Now that you are to be a proud hurdy-gurdy owner you need to know that a sense of humor is absolutely essential. :-) When you play hurdy-gurdy you either laugh or you cry and since I french polish these instruments you better not be crying on the finish. :-)----Cali Hackmann = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:13:13 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: [HG] "master of baroque" ?!? --- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> wrote: > > > >Robert A Grele I'm playing) and don't call me "master" That's all.... ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:26:47 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Hi Guido Welcome to the list > First, there are very different instruments > available and sometimes it seems > to me, that every instrument should be individually > made for its player. But > then there are there typical ones (I think) with two > melody strings, one > trumpet string, three drone strings and several > resonating strings, say > four. > On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3 > trumpet strings, 6 > drones and 12 resonating strings. > What is the difference in sound and play? > Or, what else is the difference? In my opinion the difference is the same as between a bicycle and a Harley Davidson.....they both got two wheels....period. Harley Davidson is faster and confortable but if you are a "cyclist" you'd rather have a nice Bianchi. (may God protect me from other list members' comment). > How important for you is it to play the instrument > before buying it. It's a MUST Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not a player (or without a friend that really is). Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:47:03 +0100 From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions > Harley Davidson is faster and confortable but if you > are a "cyclist" you'd rather have a nice Bianchi. I see what you mean. But what are the sound differences (I'm talking of hurdy-gurdies now, not bikes ;)? Can I compare it with the number of strings in an orchestra? BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the hurdy-gurdy of somebody else or are different instruments too individual? >> How important for you is it to play the instrument >> before buying it. > > It's a MUST > Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not > a player (or without a friend that really is). That makes clear what to do next :) Guido = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:05:12 +0100 From: Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from? I think there is an additional mechanism. The turning of the wheel lifts the string together with the chien off the soundboard. You have the same effekt if you lift the trompette string a little bit with the finger before the chien while turning the wheel. If you turn the wheel in the other direction the trompette does not work. Jens -- ======================================================= Jens Walter ZFS - Zentrum Fertigungstechnik Stuttgart Dipl.-Phys. Nobelstr. 15, D-70569 Stuttgart, Germany email: jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de phone: ++49(0)711/131 62-29 fax: ++49(0)711/131 62-11 http://www.zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de ======================================================= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:22:36 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions Hi Guido > But what are the sound differences (I'm talking of > hurdy-gurdies now, not > bikes ;)? > Can I compare it with the number of strings in an > orchestra? Not exactly....I can try to explain this way: a "basic hurdy-gurdy" (the bicycle...:o) has got some "limitations" that "modern gurdies" haven't, for exemple you can't change the key you're playing with WHILE you're playing, or you can't have different tuning (or "sound") in the same instrument, or else a wider range of the keyboard and so on. In other words: if you like the "classic" hurdy-gurdy repertory (that's to say traditional dance music, baroque music and so on) you don't really need anything more than a "classic" gurdy. If you are an open minded player that likes "other" music, you'll need "other" gurdies. Of course different number of strings and different mixture and balancing between strings drive to different sound. Remember: this is just my own opinion, but if you are a beginner FORGET anything more than a "classic" 6 strings gurdy for a while. > BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the > hurdy-gurdy of somebody > else or are different instruments too individual? Yes, it is possible, but I'd never play a concert using someone else gurdy.... Try to imagine the relationship between a hautbois player and his own reed (or again...between a cyclist and his own bicycle... :o) Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:33:08 +0100 From: Stefan Neumeier <Neumeier _at_ landentwicklung-muenchen.de> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions But what are the sound differences Basically I would say the sound diffrences depend on the kind of Hurdy Gurdy. A Hungarian HG will sound a little bit different than a French one and a Symphonia and so on (not talking about the different tuning possibilities). Ok now there is also the aspect of how the HG is constructed and which luthier it comes from. As I already mentioned some time ago I think that nobody else than yourself can decide if you like the sound or trust the luthier (every player has its own opinion due to this aspects). But there are some basic facts that you should consider buying a HG. I would recommend not to buy one of those too cheap instrumensts (ok they can sound quite well if they are adjusted right, but for a beginner it can be a frustrating experience until you get the thing to work properly). As for questions to quality aspects there is a good article on the hurdygurdy.com pages. BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the hurdy-gurdy of somebody else or are different instruments too individual? Yes of course it is possible (as far as I know only the hungarian style instruments have some different key spacings etc.) -- diese Nachricht wurde Ihnen gesendet von/message sent by: Dipl. Geogr. Stefan Neumeier Technische Universität München Institut für Geodäsie, GIS und Landmanagement/ Lehrstuhl für Bodenordnung und Landentwicklung; Department of Geodesy, GIS and Landmanagement/ Chair of Land Readjustment and Land Development; Arcisstr. 21 D-80290 München Deutschland/Germany/R.F.A. Tel. ++/49/(0)89/289-22518 Fax. ++/49/(0)89/289-23933 http://www.landentwicklung-muenchen.de Neumeier _at_ landentwicklung-muenchen.de privat: Parkstraße 19 B 82065 Baierbrunn Tel.: ++/49/(0)89/7932205 Fax.: ++/49/(0)89/7932205 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:10:46 -0800 From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Ah, just for clarification, the Olympic Musical Instrument's Minstrel Hurdy-gurdy is NOT a diatonic instrument. It is a chromatic three string instrument with a chien. It is a VERY fine instrument at an incredibly low cost that most people can afford. Many players buy one as a second instrument because it is very compact, easy to travel with, sounds great and is extremely stable in just about any climate. I have serial number 004, so have had mine for some time. Yes, it is limited in that you have only 3 strings, but I have found that when needed I can retune my trompet and it will remain stable. Katie Roe My soul can find no staircase to heaven unless it be through Earth's loveliness. -Michelangelo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:17:57 -0800 From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions On 12/10/01 12:26 AM, marcello bono wrote: > Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not > a player (or without a friend that really is). Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of playing an instrument or getting advice from a "real" player before buying one, especially in the U.S. where HG players can be *very* few and far between. I think one of the reasons this list exists is to try to help fill that gap for people. That said, I will repost my message from February 22 detailing what I recommend looking for in a HG. Anna Peekstok (who bought her gurdy sight unseen in 1985 and luckily has never regretted it) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:18:54 -0800 From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> Subject: [HG] Repost from Feb. 22, 2001: Buying a HG On 2/22/01 3:43 AM, michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com wrote: > Being a first time buyer, what should I > look for? 1. Take off the wheel cover if there is one and look at the wheel. The playing surface should look smooth and clean, with no gouges, scratches, bumps, or pits. 2. Take all the strings off the wheel (they should all have bridge slots or pegs to prevent them from touching the wheel). Turn the crank while watching the wheel from above the HG looking down. The wheel should not wobble from side to side. 3. Set the instrument on a table, near the edge so you can turn the crank. Crouch or sit behind the crank so your eyes are level with the HG soundboard. Turn the crank and watch the wheel. It should turn smoothly with no higher or lower areas as it goes around. 4. While turning the crank with no strings on the wheel, listen and feel for any hitch or clunking in the motion. The crank/wheel/shaft should not have much play in any direction; turning it should be the only motion you can easily make with it. 5. Look inside the keybox. Are all the tangents present and accounted for? You should probably also find out how easy each one of those puppies is to tune; a stuck tangent is a pain in the butt. You can fix it, but you should know about it before buying the instrument. 6. With the strings still off the wheel, strap the HG on in correct playing position, tilted a bit so the keys/tangents will all drop down off the strings (open the keybox to check). Close the keybox and put your left hand on its lid, bending your fingers down to depress the keys. Push each key in and then let go. The keys should move in smoothly and drop smoothly and quickly back to the original position without excess play or rattle against the hole in the keybox. Sticky keys can be fixed, but again it's better to know about them before buying the instrument. 7. The chanter strings inside the keybox should pass over a moveable nut at the far end of the keybox (between the tangents and the tuning pegs). Can you move the nut? (Try moving it VERY slightly; the position of this nut is crucial to getting the instrument in tune.) 8. Can you or the seller get the instrument to play in tune? Is the tone smooth and pleasant? Does the dog work? Anna Peekstok Seattle, WA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions --- Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de> wrote: > I'll try to describe the sound. It's very soft.... > It lacks > the sharp formants what makes it soft....this one I > would call sweet.... > I would think it would make a softer sound when the > melody strings are not > tuned too exact? I have noticed when I tuned strings down a full tone (to play with a Paraguayan Harp tuned to F) that the instrument is not as responsive and lacks clarity, but the sound is sweeter. So that may be whats hapening on that recording. ...Incidently, it turned out that the tunes that worked with drones wanted the C, to I tuned back up and proceeded normally. Those Paraguyan Harps are LOUD!!! > Is it possible to adjust the volume of the trumpet > or the drones? I'd think it woud be a permanent adjustment. You might have better luck with an electric and tweak the volume knobs as needed. Hope that Helps. Roy Trotter (Springtown Tx, USA) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] "master of baroque" ?!? --- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote: > and don't call me "master" . Ok, how about "Sensei" ;-) Later, Roy Trotter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:13:28 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] bugs We interrupt your regularly-scheduled broadcast at this time to bring this news flash: man in the northeast, reportedly suffering from a mid-life crisis which then lead to a strange, feverish interest in the hurdy gurdy, has succumbed to a mild attack of the melancholy. Friends and family are showing support as he attempts to recover. The cause was reported to be a virus. Grotesquely referred to as a worm, it apparently took over and in robot-like fashion, and directed random e mails that were damaging and nonsensical, sent to innocent parties, many of whom were players of this instrument called the hurdy gurdy. Donations can be given in the form of forgiveness by anyone was affected. We now return you to your regular programming already in progress. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:41:19 -0800 (PST) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale Hello everyone, I noticed that there is a nice looking Hurdy Gurdy for sale at Elderly Music in Lansing, Michigan USA. It is a beautiful and unusual gamba shaped instrument made in the 1990's in Austria by Stefan Weiss. The price is $2900. Visit the link below to read about it and see several photos. http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/200U-242.htm Enjoy, David Smith Dearborn, Michigan USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:49:37 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale David, how is your new gurdy coming? Are you finished with the restoration? What are the results? Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:02:38 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale Hello, David Smith: > Hello everyone, > I noticed that there is a nice looking Hurdy Gurdy for > sale at Elderly Music in Lansing, Michigan USA. It is > a beautiful and unusual gamba shaped instrument made > in the 1990's in Austria by Stefan Weiss. The price > is $2900. Visit the link below to read about it and > see several photos. > http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/200U-242.htm I know the maker of the instrument, he makes very nice looking instruments, hurdy gurdies, bagpipes, violins, viola da gambas and others. He is a carpenter specialiced on restoration and reconstruction of old furniture and passionate musican playing button accordeon, hurdy gurdy and other instruments. 2900 USD are are more than the original price of the instrument I suppose, maybe due to changing currency exchange rates since the buy. The instrument is very beautyfull and would fit nicely in every music instruments collection, but is rather not a first instrument or an instrument to play it all the time. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:11:18 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com> Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, [iso-8859-1] marcello bono wrote: Marcello, You probably know this already, but do take a look with Naoki Ueo's list on musettedecour.com http://homepage.mac.com/muzette/Rep_list/Musette_Repertory_frame.html Ciao -- Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com -- Flow my tears, fall from your springs, Exiled forever: Let me mourn where night's black bird her sad infamy sings, there let me live forlorn. --John Dowland (2nd book of Songs or Ayres, 1600) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:00:20 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy In a message dated 12/10/01 11:25:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com writes: Ah, just for clarification, the Olympic Musical Instrument's Minstrel Hurdy-gurdy is NOT a diatonic instrument. It is a chromatic three string instrument with a chien. It is a VERY fine instrument at an incredibly low cost that most people can afford. Many players buy one as a second instrument because it is very compact, easy to travel with, sounds great and is extremely stable in just about any climate I assumed it was diatonic. Alden has already corrected me. I believe Alden said it comes as diatonic, but can be ordered as chromatic. Eventually, I may buy one as a second instrument as well. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:36:59 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy Hi all, Not to belabor this point, but all of our instruments are chromatic unless you specially order it as a diatonic instrument. Unless you have a need for a special interest instrument that is diatonic, chromatic is a much more versatile choice. :-)-----Cali Hackmann Olympic Musical Instruments = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:34:15 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction While talking with co-workers this afternoon I asked if their children were still pursuing learning to play their musical instruments. One's son was learning alto saxophone; the other's daughter was learning guitar. Both said "no." This made me realize exactly what I meant about hurdy gurdies being expensive. For most mainstream instruments, there are student models available as beginner instruments to learn on. They are very inexpensive and if the person decides to not pursue it they are only out a minimum investment or they can switch to another beginner instrument. Whereas a good quality hurdy gurdy is, to some of us, a major investment. That's the point I was trying to make (which I couldn't translate properly in my posts). When I decided I wanted to get a hurdy gurdy I made this decision based on a love of and for the instrument without ever having actually held one or played one. My decision was purely emotional. That's what I meant about people having a great deal of passion for the hurdy gurdy. I should have my very own hg shortly and I will do my best to make people aware of the instrument in my area. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:08:57 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list --- Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com> wrote: > > Marcello, > > You probably know this already, but do take a look > with Naoki Ueo's list > on musettedecour.com > > http://homepage.mac.com/muzette/Rep_list/Musette_Repertory_frame.html No, I didn't...great page! Thanks a lot for the info Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:36:49 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions --- Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> ha scritto: > On 12/10/01 12:26 AM, marcello bono wrote: > > > Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're > not > > a player (or without a friend that really is). > > Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of > playing an instrument or > getting advice from a "real" player before buying > one, especially in the > U.S. where HG players can be *very* few and far > between. I see, when I started to play hurdy-gurdy, in Rome, more than 20 years ago, I was the only "player" in 300 miles..... > I think one of the > reasons this list exists is to try to help fill that > gap for people. That's why I answered that way (probably I forgot to put a smile at the end and my message sounded too "rude")....but he asked for a suggestion and I gave him mine :o) > (who bought her gurdy sight unseen in 1985 and > luckily has never regretted > it) During the latest 10-15 years I met more than 40 - 50 sad people (just in Italy...) with "bargain less than 1000 USD gurdy" or unable to even tune a "good" instrument, and all those people should have been happy to follow my suggestion. Statistics is on my side :o) Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:19:54 +0100 From: Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale Interesting, if you look at the bridge, it seems to be made for 3 melody strings and there are also additional holes on some of the tangents, but obviously (from the other photos) only 2 strings can be fitted. Can somone explain that?? Jens > > in the 1990ter ZFS - Zentrum Fertigungstechnik Stuttgart Dipl.-Phys. Nobelstr. 15, D-70569 Stuttgart, Germany email: jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de phone: ++49(0)711/131 62-29 fax: ++49(0)711/131 62-11 http://www.zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de ======================================================= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:30:58 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale --- Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de> ha scritto: > Interesting, if you look at the bridge, it seems to > be made for 3 melody > strings and there are also additional holes on some > of the tangents, but > obviously (from the other photos) only 2 strings can > be fitted. Not only: there are also two pegs for trompette's regulation but just one trompette string.... ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 __________________________________________ Iscriviti al Meglio della Settimana, la newsletter di Yahoo! Per saperne di più vai alla pagina: http://buongiorno.yahoo.it = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:20:56 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction Hello, DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com: > (...) > For most mainstream instruments, there are student models available as > beginner instruments to learn on. They are very inexpensive and if the > person decides to not pursue it they are only out a minimum investment or > they can switch to another beginner instrument. To my observation, its *not* so much the price of student instruments that is that different, exept for real factory stuff: recomendable student hurdy gurdys for about 1250 Euro do exist (also wrecks for 3000 Euro ) and are available within the time it needs to organize payment and shipping. The main difference is that with popular beginners instruments it is easily possible to borrow or rent an instrument, or chances are high that they are already owned in the family. And this is related with the problem that hurdy gurdy teachers are seldom: Music teachers usually lend instruments to students, as I do with my hurdy gurdies, for about 29 Euro per month. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:24:38 +0100 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Hello list, If somebody is interested in a HG :I want to exchange one for a bagpipe,preferebly not a Scottish one. You can mail me at Reymen _at_ pandora.be = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:12 -0800 (PST) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp) Reymen V wrote: > If somebody is interested in a HG :I want to exchange one for a > bagpipe,preferebly not a Scottish one. Out of the frying pan and into the fire... ;-) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:12:44 -0800 From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions On 12/10/01 11:36 PM, marcello bono wrote: > During the latest 10-15 years I met more than 40 - 50 > sad people (just in Italy...) with "bargain less than > 1000 USD gurdy" or unable to even tune a "good" > instrument, and all those people should have been > happy to follow my suggestion. > Statistics is on my side :o) Yes, I've seen the same thing here in the United States. I'm not arguing against your point -- I agree that getting input from (at least one) knowledgeable player is by far the best way to go about buying one's first hurdy-gurdy. However, this is just not practical for some people, and I believe we can prevent some of those disastrous purchases by providing information on this list about what to look for and what to avoid. Your way is definitely best, but written advice is probably better than nothing. Cheers, Anna + + + + + + + Anna Peekstok Seattle, WA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:06:13 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction Hi Jake. Passion, verve, esprit de corps (sp), all this is the mark of the HG players I know. Other words like lunatics also come to mind. :-) I am glad to hear you will soon join the ranks of those of us who crank away. As soon as you get yours you will find out that even when you can't play a single tune it is so very satisfying to hug the gurdy baby close and crank away. I think it is the effect of the drone on the shakras. If I need to relax, I just grab my HG and turn, turn , turn. When learning a new tune I often (always) get flustered and lose patience. I just take off the melody string and drone. Instant bliss. Hey, where do you live and who is making your HG. You may discover another Gurdy player just down your lane. :-) Joan in Seattle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:16:28 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list Vincent. Thanks. Great site. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:53:08 -0400 From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction Hi Jake, I do agree with you. I have been purely voyeuristic on this list since I introduced myself last spring, and I too am awaiting an instrument that I am passionate about and have never actually held. I am lucky in that I am buying a friend's first hurdy gurdy from her when her new Chris Eaton model is completed and she is very kindly selling it for much less than it's worth. However, I have constant pangs of guilt over taking food out of my children's mouth (maybe a little overly-dramatic), when I already own double bass (again a relatively expensive instrument) that I don't play nearly enough these days. And then the fear, what if I can't/don't play it?!?! But I am really hoping the passion and intrigue of the instrument will push me through the learning curve. I thought everbody's comments on this subject have been great and have strengthened my resolve. Of course, you will all be there as my on-line self help group when I need it...oui? Cheers, Alison Gowan in Kingston, ON. >Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:19:04 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction Hi Simon. The possibility of finding a rental is an issue. Unless a person puts out the $$$ for a quality HG they end up getting an instrument that is either unplayable or VERY HARD to keep in tune. the Olympic Music Minstrel is quality for a reasonable price. It's resale value is high if noot equal to theprice paid if kept nice. (Note: I know very few peole who want to sell theirs once they have it.) It stays in tune. Out of tune for my instrument usually means a half step sharp. It's easy to learn to cotton, given only one drone, one dog and one melody string. I haven't changed the cotton on my drone for over a year. the dog has never flipped out. It is a little work horse. OH DEAR, I got side tracked. What I really wanted to mention is the rental program the Gamba Society has for their club. This is something a club could do for HG players. The Gamba Society has a collection of 9 or 10, maybe more now, Gambas they rent to people interested in learning the Viola de Gamba. The instruments, owned by society members, usually the first instrument they purchased before getting the instrument they discovered they wanted. A member of the Society handles the rental program. There is a formal rental agreement, insurance by the renter, club membership etc. required. Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:13:22 -0500 From: Timothy S. Hall <hallt _at_ louisville.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction >What I really wanted to mention is the rental program the Gamba Society has >for their club. This is a good program - one of the students in the consort at my university has a bass through this rental program, and it's a good instrument. There's also a companion rent-to-own program in which the Society (www.vdgsa.org, if anyone's interested) commissions viols and sells them on an installment basis. There's a waiting list, IIRC. Another sort of program that folks might want to emulate is that which the Northumbrian piping folks sometimes use. That is for pipemakers (or local clubs) to have a few simple instruments for hire or loan to people who think they want to take up the instrument, but don't want to shell out $1000+ before they've ever held one. For an example of this, check out John Liestman's website devoted to the NSP. These are usually simple (keyless) instruments; an analogy in the HG world might be a 3 string diatonic box without dog; but enough to give someone an idea of what's involved with the instrument. Best, Tim Hall hallt _at_ louisville.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:09:03 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction In a message dated 12/11/01 2:51:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, acgowan _at_ freeuk.com writes: Hi Jake, I do agree with you. I have been purely voyeuristic on this list since I introduced myself last spring, and I too am awaiting an instrument that I am passionate about and have never actually held. Thank you, Alison. However, I have constant pangs of guilt over taking food out of my children's mouth (maybe a little overly-dramatic), when I already own double bass (again a relatively expensive instrument) that I don't play nearly enough these days. It seems we have a lot im common. Electric bass is my main instrument. I play a 5-string electric bass tuned E-A-D-G-C. Usually 5-string basses are tuned with a low-B string, but I wanted the high-C as I play lead in our band and have more use for the higher range. The music shop I bought it told me that mine was the first they knew of tuned with high-C. I have about 8 basses, including a Guild Ashbory and a doudle-neck. And then the fear, what if I can't/don't play it?!?! That is my fear also. At least the "can't" part. I will definitely try. I thought everybody's comments on this subject have been great and have strengthened my resolve. Of course, you will all be there as my on-line self help group when I need it...oui? We can chart our progress together and I'm sure the group will help us. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:44:07 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Dominic White Hello Reymen, This is Dominic White here. I'm a member of the list, although I don't write to it too often. I have a pair of pipes I don't use. In fact, I'm not really sure they are useable at all, I wouldn't know. They were a gift a long time ago, and I think they are actually Pakistani pipes, at least that's what I may have been told. I did used to play them but I never took lessons and never stuck with it long enough to know if these are a decent set of pipes or not. They were useable at one time, right now they're just hanging on my wall. If you are interested, I can snap a polaroid and scan it for you. Dominic = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:27:33 +0100 From: Alexander Engel <artengel _at_ aon.at> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request am 10.12.2001 0:25 Uhr schrieb Simon Wascher unter Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at: > Hello, > > nice to see another Austrian added to this list, wellcome. Is it you > that plays hurdy gurdy on some recording I heard at a friends ? > > Alexander Engel: > (...) Hello Simon Wascher and Hurdy Gurdy List, Thanks for the welcome. No, sorry, I am not a hurdy gurdy player, I built a long time ago (more than 15 years) some dulcimers and epinettes and one hurdy gurdy, a sort of a "Bauernleier", but I had not enough informations about tuning and stringing and nobody, who even knew, what it is what I was building. Now I think I will be more professional and after a few more simple instruments I´m sure I will make hurdy gurdies. May be, Simon; we will meet some day, Austria Isn´t as big as the USA. greetings from Carinthia to Vienna and all over the world alexander engel ............................................................... alexander engel stoberdorf althofen 9330 a u s t r i a telephone 0043 4262 4988 electronic mail artengel _at_ aon.at = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:55:41 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Question regarding hurdy gurdy history Hello all, On another list I mentioned that I was getting a hurdy gurdy and someone asked "how did the name come about?" Can anyone give a brief description of where the hurdy gurdy originated and how did it get the name? I'll do some searching, but I was hoping for a quick, brief answer. Thank you, Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:12:38 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: [HG] Introduction and comments Hello, everyone. I've recently subscribed to the list, and after reading for a few days, thought I should introduce myself before joining the discussion. I've been playing hurdy-gurdy for about 5 years. I came to it after being exposed (infected? :-) at an early music collegium. I'm primarily a wind and percussion player -- hurdy-gurdy is the only stringed instrument I really play, rather than play at. I seem to be making an amateur career of playing somewhat unusual instruments, with pipe and tabor and hurdy-gurdy being the "oddest" in my collection. I play the more usual recorder, flute, pennywhistle, and so on, along with early music staples such as shawm and krummhorn. I have even made a rackett. Three, actually, tenor, bass, and great bass. :-) My hurdy-gurdy is a 3 string 'Minnesinger' symphony, built from a kit by George Kelischek. (http://www.susato.com, although I'm not sure if he's still selling the kit) I've played other people's instruments, and I'm now seriously shopping for a chromatic instrument with chien. My main interest is music of the Renaissance and earlier. I'm actually quite pleased with the little Kelischek box -- it has a much larger sound than one would expect, and hasn't been much trouble to keep in tune. I generally keep the drones in C and c', with the melody in g, the better to play dance music with recorders. On the price of instruments: anything not mass produced in a factory is going to be a lot more expensive. Hand work costs money. Mass produced instruments can be quite good, but they won't be as good as a custom instrument built by a knowledgeable craftsman. (They also won't be as bad as a scratch-built instrument by someone without a clue!) And if the market won't support the investment in tooling to mass produce instruments, you're going to have to pay for the craftsmanship to get a good instrument. The sheer number of parts that interact in a hurdy-gurdy mean that tooling for mass production is going to be more difficult (meaning expensive investment) than for a simple cylindrical bore wind instrument like a flute or tabor pipe. Having had my notion of "expensive" for instruments permanently altered when I started shopping for my first hurdy-gurdy and a shawm at the same time, US$1000 seems a reasonable price a basic hurdy-gurdy. On "try before you buy": Absolutely! I'll buy mass produced instruments (Yamaha recorders, for example) without a trial period, since I expect them to be pretty much the same. I've also bought enough of them over the years to know what brand names and models I'm willing to buy... anything not on my "been there, done that" list I'm very hesitant to put money on without trying first. And if you don't know enough about an instrument to trust your own opinion about it, find someone who does and get them to go over it with you. Finding an instrument that really fits you and the way you want to play is kind of like buying shoes. Some look good, but don't feel right, some fit well but aren't your style, some look OK and are the right size, but are badly made, and sometimes you get really lucky and find something that is well made in a style you like, fits well, and is for sale at a good price. ===== -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:38:14 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Question regarding hurdy gurdy history Hi Jake, The original name for the instrument was organistrum. The name hurdy-gurdy is British and is used in England for almost anything that is turned with a crank. In the U.S. it became confused with an instrument which is actually a barrel organ or barrel piano. Both were turned with a crank, but the barrel organ is much like a big music box and the player provides the motive power rather than having to initiate the music themselves. That's as brief as I can get. :-) Cali = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:18:45 -0800 From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: RE: [HG] Introduction and comments Hi Dennis, Welcome to the hg list. I'm always especially glad to see another early music person turn up. I just finished playing a show (Revels) where I played hg, krummhorn, shawm, recorder and rommelpot. You'll be glad of your decision to "go chromatic" because you will get to play hg more. I recently published two volumes of diatonic medieval music for hg, because there is such a lack of resources for diatonic players. I started out intending to make a nice handout for the Over the Water HG Festival, but ended up with so much music that I went ahead and made books. :-) I can't say enough good things about the Olympic Musical Instruments Minstrel if you are looking in the $1000 range. It's chromatic and has the chien, of course, but they are the most stable, happy hurdy-gurdies you are likely to find. I play mine outdoors quite a bit, and it is my gurdy of choice on stage because it will stay in tune (!!!) I love my volksgurdy, but it wouldn't stay in tune through a show. Joanne --- Joanne Andrus --- joaand _at_ earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:48:10 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments Hello, Joanne Andrus: > (...) > I recently published two volumes of diatonic medieval music > for hg, because there is such a lack of resources for diatonic players. I > started out intending to make a nice handout for the Over the Water HG > Festival, but ended up with so much music that I went ahead and made books. This sounds intresting. Can you describe a bit whats in these books and is it possible to buy a copy? Quite often there is a request from my students for medieval music suitable for hurdy gurdy (for some people hurdy gurdy and medieval music seem to be synonymus), and a nice compilation would be great. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:05:12 EST From: DBur333333 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments You mentioned Revels...are you from the Boston area? There is a Revels here in Boston (Cambridge, actually) and I was wondering if you were in the Boston Revels. Thanks, Donna = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:02:12 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Introduction and comments --- Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net> wrote: >[...] > music person turn up. I just finished playing a > show (Revels) where I > played hg, krummhorn, shawm, recorder and rommelpot. We've got Revels here in Chicago, too. One of my recorder consort played this year. Two others (now in Boston) played pipe and tabor for Revels last year when I was already committed for the dates. Rommelpot is a blast -- someone described it to me once as "the perfect 'guy' instrument, where you get to make vile noises and claim they're intentional". :-) I need a new head for mine, just haven't gotten around to tracking down thin enough rawhide. Dog chew rawhide is too thick. > play hg more. I recently published two volumes of > diatonic medieval music > for hg, because there is such a lack of resources > for diatonic players. I I haven't had a lot of trouble finding pieces, but then my early music collection is pretty extensive at this point. Where are your volumes available? More sheet music is kind of like more instruments -- its really difficult to have too much. :-) > I can't say enough good things about the Olympic > Musical Instruments > Minstrel if you are looking in the $1000 range. > It's chromatic and has the > chien, of course, but they are the most stable, > happy hurdy-gurdies you are > likely to find. I play mine outdoors quite a bit, > and it is my gurdy of > choice on stage because it will stay in tune (!!!) Outdoors is something I'm likely to do a lot of... I keep hearing (reading) good things about the Minstrel, but I'd like to get a firsthand look at one. Anyone in the Chicago area with one? Alternatively, I get to places within an arc around Chicago including Milwaukee, Madison, St. Louis, and Indianapolis with fair regularity, and I'd be happy to take a side trip to get an hour or two with an instrument. ===== -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dennis Sherman wrote: > My hurdy-gurdy is a 3 string 'Minnesinger' symphony, > built from a kit by George Kelischek. > (http://www.susato.com, although I'm not sure if he's > still selling the kit) They stopped selling the kit version, but you can still get the finished version. -- Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com -- When I dream that you love me, you'll surely forgive; Extend not your anger to sleep; For in visions alone your affections can live,-- I rise and it leaves me to weep. George Gordon, Lord Byron (1788-1824) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:06:38 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Revels (no FC) In a message dated 12/13/01 8:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, DBur333333 _at_ aol.com writes: There is also The Christmas Revels held annually (early to mid December) at Symphony Space in New York City. Jake = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:59:05 EST From: DBur333333 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Revels (no FC) Thanks for the response...I am always on the lookout for HG players around Boston, but sounds like you are in NYC. It must be exciting to be in the Revels. Good holidays to you. Donna = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:27:43 -0800 From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments Actually, I live in the Seattle area. Revels are now in 12 cities across the country. I've played in the Puget Sound Revels, but I play in the Portland (OR) Revels more often, including this year. Cambridge is the original Revels city where it all started. Joanne = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:50:32 -0800 From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments The Medieval Hurdy-Gurdy, Vol. 1 Diatonic Medieval Music has 72 pieces from various sources, including a few two and three part tunes in the back. Vol. 2 Cantigas de Santa Maria has 39 Cantigas, also all diatonic. They are arranged for C/G tuning. I also have a book of English masque tunes arranged for two hurdy-gurdies (not a diatonic book.) So far they are available from two music stores in Seattle, Dusty Strings 206-634-1662 and John's Music 1-800-473-5194. Both of these stores are happy to do mail order. I'm working on having them available through other sources as well. They are $25 for each book. I'm working on a couple of Renaissance volumes, one diatonic and one chromatic, as well as volumes of medieval music for chromatic hg and for D/G tuning. (This little handout project has really snowballed...) Joanne --- Joanne Andrus --- joaand _at_ earthlink.net --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:05:56 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Messages from the Listmaster Dear HG List, As you may have noticed, the list has been down for several days. It turned out that the anticipated shutoff of services came later than expected. The list and website are now up and running with a new provider. If you have sent email to the list and not seen it, please send it again. Also, there are a number of people on the list who have not introduced themselves. Lurking is fine, especially until you get a feeling for what the list is like, but I'd like to encourage anyone who hasn't made an introduction to do so. Thank you very much. Alden the Listmaster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:41:01 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: [HG] Happy new year I'm going to be far from any PCs for a couple of weeks,so.... If you need to write me something, do it NOW. If you want I read your message please DON'T use that damned spam infected ghironda _at_ hotmail.com but use : lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it marcellobono _at_ yahoo.com bono _at_ bologna.enea.it Happy, happy, happy new year to you all from your friend across the ocean (or the Alps...it depends on you). Baci e abbracci agli italiani :o) ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:51:15 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] Happy new year Dear Marcello, away from a PC for a few weeks ....what bliss!! Happy new year Nicholas = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:10 +1100 From: Aylwen Garden <garden _at_ earthlydelights.com.au> Subject: [HG] I've been lurking.... I've been lurking in the background and can't remember if I've introduced myself.... Aylwen Garden, 29, hurdy gurdy player, married to John Garden, 43, hurdy gurdy player, leader of band Earthly Delights, composer of hurdy gurdy and english bagpipe tunes,etc; together we have 4 children - the eldest is 10 and she also has a smaller flat-backed hurdy gurdy. Our 3 hurdy gurdys are made by Tim Guster in Adelaide, Australia. We live in Yarralumla, Canberra, Australia. If Cliff Stapleton reads this message, then "hi!", "the lake is still great for swimming in and John still plays in his wonderfully unique style". If you want to read about John see http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/page9.html or the band Earthly Delights http://www.earthlydelights.com.au or our latest 4 CD production http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/page4.html . If anyone wants to help us get over to Europe please send me an email! Merry Christmas! Lots of good cheer, Aylwen Garden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:05:52 -0500 From: joseph dinkins <guitarart _at_ naxs.net> Subject: [HG] Thanks Alden Hello Alden, Thanks for responding. I wasn't sure what was the matter. I enjoy being part of the list. Best wishes Joe = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:20:13 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Revels (no FC) At 06:59 AM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks for the response...I am always on the lookout for HG players around >Boston, but sounds like you are in NYC. It must be exciting to be in the >Revels. >Good holidays to you. >Donna I can't let this one go by - I'm home for a couple of days from Boston where I'm playing in the Cambridge Christmas Revels program this month! What an experience... Donna, there is a group of hurdy-gurdy players here in New England, a few of which are in the Boston area. We get together a couple of times a year. Do you live in the Boston area? It would be great to add another player to our ranks! After today (wednesday), I'll be away from my computer until January, so I won't be able to follow this further. If anyone needs to reach me, I'll be checking email occasionally at mattszos _at_ hotmail.com. ~ Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies 7 Grove Street Camden, Maine 04843 phone/fax: 207-236-9576 email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle -------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:09:32 -0800 (PST) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> To: Hurdy Gurdy <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy Hello everyone, Some of you may remember that a couple of months ago I posted photos of a French hurdy gurdy which I was getting ready to recondition. I purchased the instrument on Ebay in July and I have been studying it and how to make it playable. Well, I have been working on it for several months and it is finally in reasonable working order. If you would like to see some new photos of the instrument just go to the following URL: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=88388268203&n=414251426 Here is a list of what I did to recondition it. 1. True the solid wood wheel. 2. Fabricate and install all new wood tangents with traditional friction fit. 3. Repair 3 soundboard cracks. 4. True the 6 solid wood tuning pegs. 5. Fabricate new nuts for the melody strings. 6. Fabricate a new dog. 7. Install new strings. 8. Re-notch all bridges and adjust string pressure against the wheel. 9. Reglue several joints which were coming unglued. 10. Install brass rod standoffs for the melody strings. 11. Shim approximately 1/4 of the loose fitting keyslots. I found some reasonably priced solid gut strings from Sierra View Acoustic Music. They sell Purr'll gut strings and a single string is just long enough for both melody strings. If you are interested their website is at: http://www.gourdbanjo.com/GBhtml/gut.html The wheel was approximately 3/16" out of round due to the shrinkage of the wood over time. I trued the wheel in September and have noticed that now we are in the less humid month of December that the wheel is about 1/32" out of round but it doesn't appear to effect the sound that I can tell. If the solid wood wheel becomes a problem over time, I will consider a laminated one in the future. The solid wood bearings are fairly tight and the instrument as a whole sounds good with only a few little noises to hopefully be taken care of. The label inside the instrument states that it was made by Maxime Boureand in France. I have come up with what I believe is a current address for him and soon I hope to send him a translated letter with photos with the hope of getting an approximate idea of when the instrument was made. If I get an answer I will let the HG list know. I do have 3 questions to pose to the list for anyone who would like to answer. 1. I am using .95mm solid gut for the 340mm melody strings tuned in G/C. The upper 1/3 of the notes seem a little weak compared to the lower notes. Should I try larger or smaller diameter strings to try and correct this? 2. This is my first attempt at a chromatic keyboard. Is is generally acceptable to use your thumb occasionally on the upper keyboard (the sharps)? 3. If I ever attend the Over the Water Festival, which is the most common tuning G/C or D/G? I noticed in the Massif Central books that it seems like D/G is favored. I purchased this Hurdy Gurdy so that I would have a chromatic instrument and also to see what a traditional French luteback was all about. For the past 5 years I have been playing a Musicmaker's diatonic kit instrument which I have modified quite a bit. I know that the Musicmaker's instrument has a bad reputation, however I recently added solid gut strings to the melody and drones strings and to my ears it sounds just wonderful. Thanks for listening, David Smith Dearborn, Michigan USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:01:20 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Happy new year Hi, Marcello! Happy Holidays and New Year to you, too! I often think of the gurdy fest a few years back now when I got to study with you- I enjoyed the classes so much and even more getting to spend time with you and hear you play. I learned a ton about playing my instrument and it still affects what I do today. I'm really looking forward to taking lessons from you again- when I can EVER be in town for the festival again! It's hard to do, what with touring and all. Anyway, lovely to see your name in my mailbox. Take care, sincerely, Felicia Dale. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:08:39 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy In a message dated 12/19/01 9:11:09 AM, dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com writes: << 2. This is my first attempt at a chromatic keyboard. Is is generally acceptable to use your thumb occasionally on the upper keyboard (the sharps)? >> Why not? Marcello Bono does. <<For the past 5 years I have been playing a Musicmaker's diatonic kit instrument which I have modified quite a bit. I know that the Musicmaker's instrument has a bad reputation, however I recently added solid gut strings to the melody and drones strings and to my ears it sounds just wonderful.>> My partner William and I were playing in Michigan (actual introduction to us to follow in another email) and two guys named John (I think- terrible memory, here!) showed up to hear us. They brought with them a kit gurdy and a home-made job that were both pretty rough looking BUT both instruments sounded FABULOUS. The strings they were using were made of fishing line and weed whacker cord!!! I was so impressed. They played well, too. So, as far as I'm concerned, anything goes! Felicia Dale. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:12:57 -0000 From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy David Great hg. Fantastic photos. George Swallow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:32:36 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy Felicia, I think that was John and Dave...Dave Leonard makes HGs fairly creatively, and they show up at many of our Michigan gatherings. Dave Leonard is president of your Michigan Fan Club! And David Smith, you've done a great job restoring that instrument! I can hardly wait to hear it. Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:31:05 -0800 From: Sandro Perri <sandro _at_ thpoon.com> Subject: [HG] Hurdy any gurdy jokes lately? Hello Hurdy-Gurdy folks, I have just recently joined this list because I am interested in someday purchasing a hurdy gurdy. I have never played one (nor even seen one up close!), but the sound is incredibly intriguing to me. Mostly I have been introduced to it through modern/avant-garde composers like Phill Niblock, Keiji Heino & Jim O'Rourke. But I am interested in learning how to play this instrument someday and integrating it into my current work with strings, electronics etc. Anyways, I am wondering if any of you might have the contact information for the luthiers in Quebec, Canada whom have been referred to me as the the only place in this country to go to have one made. Apparently they made one for Jimmy Page? Any help is much appreciated. thanks, Sandro = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:18:13 -0000 From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam Do we rub it on our hurdy-gurdies then? Does it help keep them in tune? Visions of a seven foot long HG keep going through my mind! This is one spam letter that made me laugh anyway:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "betty fine" <4514better _at_ mail.com> > If You Are A Man, You Need To Read This. > If You Are A Woman.....Then Your Man Needs To Read This! > > Don't be fooled by imitations and rip-offs! > The Male Performance Method is the ONLY way you can: > > End your performance problems and enlarge your equipment without pills, pumps, or sketchy snake-oil remedies. > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:43:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam Oh, my!! I didn't get far enough to consider the potential ramifications for vielle players... ;-) If you try it on your equipment and you end up with an organistrum, send me before and after pictures, OK? Which brings to mind - why do I never see any spam for anything I want? Lemme see: "Are you tired of paying too much for rosin?" "Interest rates DROPPED!!! Buy a vielle NOW with no finance charges!" "Hot young hurdy-gurdy girls want to play two-time bourrées for YOU!" "Fire your boss!!! Become a succesful folk musician OVERNIGHT!" "Your hurdy-gurdy will NEVER go out of tune onstage again!!!" ;-) ;-) Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html "Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae." On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Colin Hill wrote: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:15:45 -0800 (PST) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy any gurdy jokes lately? Sandro said: > I have just recently joined this list because I am interested in someday > purchasing a hurdy gurdy. I have never played one (nor even seen one up > close!), but the sound is incredibly intriguing to me. Mostly I have been > introduced to it through modern/avant-garde composers like Phill Niblock, > Keiji Heino & Jim O'Rourke. Who's Phill Niblock? We sold Jim O'Rourke an instrument several years ago (not one of ours). Wonder if that's the same one he used on the recording which we've never heard. We finally heard Keiji Haino's recording. It's definitely an acquired taste. ;-) > Anyways, I am wondering if any of you might have the contact information for > the luthiers in Quebec, Canada whom have been referred to me as the the only > place in this country to go to have one made. Apparently they made one for > Jimmy Page? Daniel Thonon lives near Montreal, but when we saw him a few years ago in Toronto he pretty well indicated that he was giving up building HG's because he was spending too much time playing and composing to build. He may have changed his mind since then. I haven't had the pleasure of speaking with him recently. Unless Daniel made one for him also, Jimmy Page's HG came from Chris Eaton. (I hope he actually plays it!) If you're looking for an electroacoustic HG, please talk to us offlist at hurdy _at_ silverlink.net. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:10:05 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: [HG] Niblock http://www.forcedexposure.com/artists/niblock.phill.html Phill Niblock is an acquired taste too, Alden. Somewhere, sometime, I have performed some of his works...for flute, I think. But go to the above-cited website for more information. Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:28:37 -0600 From: Patricia A. Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam Alden, I was about to offer myself up as a hot hurdy gurdy girl who'd like to play two-time bourrees for YOU. Then I noticed that you'd specified "young." Oh, well ... (just kidding, Cali). Trish = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:30:42 -0800 From: Sandro Perri <sandro _at_ thpoon.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy any gurdy jokes lately? > Who's Phill Niblock? A minimalist-drone composer who has produced some beautiful, shimmering works. The hurdy gurdy one (called "Hurdy Hurry") is composed from recordings of none other than Jim O'Rourke! It's on the Touch label from the UK. Only if you are a drone fanatic would you enjoy this I think. > We sold Jim O'Rourke an instrument several years ago (not one of ours). > Wonder if that's the same one he used on the recording which we've never > heard. Probably, but I only say that because I can't imagine somebody being fortunate enough to have more than one hurdy gurdy! That recording mixes a very simple acoustic guitar pattern which repeats for a lengthy time until a chorus of hurdy gurdies come in and swallow it whole. Quite invigorating actually... > We finally heard Keiji Haino's recording. It's definitely an acquired > taste. ;-) Yeah, the hardest of the 3 to swallow I think. > If you're looking for an electroacoustic HG, please talk to us offlist at > hurdy _at_ silverlink.net. thanks, will do... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:42:03 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam Gad, Alden, those are just GREAT spams! I sure wish I'd thought of them, or even one... love, F. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:42:55 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Re: mistaken address Geeze, someday I'll get this right. Ha. Sorry about Alden's mail from me ending up in your mail! Felicia. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:03:47 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Re: mistaken address You're not the first, Felicia. Not to worry. I'll just take a moment here to remind EVERYBODY (not singling you out, Felicia, really): the list is set up to reply to the list. If you want to reply to the sender privately, there's usually an added level of complexity, like cutting and pasting the address in. Be aware of this. There's a potential for some embarrassment or worse if the whole list sees something that you meant for just one person. So: watch your "To" field carefully! Alden (who has been there, done that, will probably do it again...) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:34:02 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy Hi David > 1. I am using .95mm solid gut for the 340mm melody > strings tuned in G/C. The upper 1/3 of the notes > seem > a little weak compared to the lower notes. Should I > try larger or smaller diameter strings to try and > correct this? The string is OK, you should try to change "something" in the setting up of the instrument, but warning: this is a job for an "expert" > 2. This is my first attempt at a chromatic > keyboard. > Is is generally acceptable to use your thumb > occasionally on the upper keyboard (the sharps)? According to Dupuits (author of a 18th century method) this is not only "acceptable" but is a "must" :o) I (and lot of other people too) use the thumb in upper and lower row of keys, it depends on the fingering I need in order to "articulate" the way I like to. > 3. If I ever attend the Over the Water Festival, > which is the most common tuning G/C or D/G? Lot of G/C (fortunately :o) ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:00:07 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Girls, girls, girls.... After popular demand for hurdy gurdy GIRLS , here they are at last: http://www.hotpipes.com/hggirls2.html <g> As for the HG makers in Canada , in Québec specially , it is mostly the land of home made instruments , for personnal use , the current value of the canadian $ is part of the reason for it . Daniel Thonon sometime sells his previous instrument when he decides to make a new one for his own use, but as far as I know he was playing the same HG for the last 2 or 3 years now . Henry Boucher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:34:09 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: [HG] Stolen Bagpipes Not directly related to hurdy-gurdies, I know but... My friend Isabelle Devaux had her beautiful Bernard Blanc pipes stolen from her. If anyone hears anything about them... Chere amis, Dear friends, Samedi dernier, le 8 decembre, mes 2 cornemuses ont ete volees a l'arriere de ma voiture alors que j'assistais a la session au Hurley's a Montreal. J'ai entrepris des recherches, notamment aupres des preteurs a gage ou "Pawn shops". Si vous avez des informations au sujet de ces instruments, pouvez-vous me contacter s'il vous plait soit par telephone (514-948-2924) soit par email: isa_devaux _at_ yahoo.com. Je serai en France du 11 au 24 decembre, mais je prendrai mes messages regulierement. Merci de votre comprehension. Isabelle devaux BOURBONNAISE BAGPIPES STOLEN IN MONTREAL Saturday, the 8th of December, 2 bagpipes from Centre France have been stolen in the back of my car, while I was at the session in the pub the Hurley's in Montreal. I started researches in pawn shops. If anyone have information about these pipes, could you please contact me either by phone: 514-948-2924 or by email: isa_devaux _at_ yahoo.com. I will be in France from the 11th to the 24th of December, but I will check my messages frequently. Thank you very much for your attention. Isabelle Devaux -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies 7 Grove Street Camden, Maine 04843 phone/fax: 207-236-9576 email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle -------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:51:18 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy any gurdy jokes lately? I wasn't sure why the heading said "jokes." subject: for someone in Quebec to someday buy a hurdy gurdy. I must say that Alden should be a #1 choice to talk to. Everyone says that his minstrel model is golden. Yet, I have the address of another person in Quebec. You (or anyone) may write to me, and I'll see if he wants his info to be given to the list. But he could be slow to respond. My e mail here is zhenya _at_ prexar.com Also, is anyone particularly interested in re-design ideas, innovation, to the hurdy gurdy? I may have an idea. jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:01:06 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Stolen Bagpipes Objet: Stolen bagpipe , Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:43:47 -0800 De: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> A: Isabelle Devaux <isa_devaux _at_ yahoo.com> Just a detail , to identify those bagpipes , they are in Bourbonnais style :http://www.hotpipes.com/pipe0002.html One is in G ( 16 " chanter ) and the most remarquable one is in low D ( 20something " chanter , the bass drone is close to 36" ) the lowest holes are keyed. The decoration consist mostly of little squares likr a chess board laid at 45° offset ( diamonds ? ) Here a picture of Isabelle with it, http://www.pipersgathering.org/Gallery%202001/Pipers%20Piping/Two_chanter_piper.jpg As you can guess , such an instrument is difficult to replace . Henry Boucher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:03:15 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] Stolen Bagpipes Hi Matt, If it may help , there is a picture here http://www.pipersgathering.org/Gallery%202001/Pipers%20Piping /Two_chanter_piper.jpg Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:32:41 -0500 From: A.J. Bashore II <noizmkr _at_ dcweblink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] I've been lurking.... Hiya All, I lurk, also. I am HurdyGurdyless and would love one. I just love the sound and fury of this instrument. I live in Eastern Central PA. Any HGers close by? I play an assortment of other things though such as mountain dulcimer, mandolin family instruments, banjo cello, and other things. The HG is certainly high on my list of priorities, yet comes low in my list on my empty piggyback. Darn. Maybe I could make one by gluing toothpicks together. I think that the group I play in Needs an HG since we do many traditional tunes some of which have the drone effect. Since early childhood I have always loved that drone effect on everything from vacuum sweepers to "singing" metal grid bridges. Bagpipes and bouzoukis fall into this category as does my primary instrument the Mountain Dulcimer. Just put a rotary bow on this and I'd make it sound so HurdyGurdyish. Now as for The Garden of Earthly Delights, I can vouch for the pleasures of their music on CD, their humorous "historical" tune and dance book, and their friendship via the internet, for I have corresponded with them for over a year now. I was so enthralled by their music that Last year I gave Many book/CD sets to many of my musical friends. John and Aylwen will certainly verify this. Now where can I find a pattern for the Toothpick-N-Glue HG? In Harmony, A.J. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:43:11 +0100 From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl> Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy I think the right name is Maxime Boireaud, not Boireand! René Meeuws = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:59:13 -0800 (PST) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy Hello Felicia, I am one of the "John's" who you met at your concert in Michigan. I had the Musicmaker's Kit with weedwacker cord strings and the other guy was Dave Leonard who built his own HG from scratch. Thanks for your kind comments. Your concert was really great and the intimate atmosphere of the Creole Gallery was perfect! If you would like to the photos I took at the concert including a couple of the 3 of us with our HG's just click on: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=37668378203&n=1766240580 The photo I really missed though, as we were leaving after the concert that night I remember your old VW minivan parked out in front. I can't imagine touring all over the country from your home in Washington(state) to Michigan and beyond. What an experience that must be! I hope you visit Michigan again, David Smith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:02:45 -0800 (PST) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Photos of my Hurdy Gurdy Thanks Rene, I looked at the label inside the HG up close and you are right it is Boireaud. Thanks, David Smith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:54:49 -0800 From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam Hmmm. What part of the Hurdy Gurdy do we rub the product on. I mean, it can't be the drone 'cause drones are, well, you know. Maybe the Trom-pet? ;-)) Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:41:00 -0800 From: John Woosley <johnwoosley _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Introduction; Electro-Acoustic Drone [HG] Hello HG list, This is John Woosley in Portland, Oregon. I've been reading the list for quite some time, and trying to keep up with it ican be a challenge - after a trip out of town I found some 200 new postings! I've learned a lot about rosin, handles & bearings, language & terminology, music and musicianship, all carried out in a good-spirited manner. It's a great list, thanks. I have a lovely vielle made by the good folks at Olympic Musical Instruments, and it makes me very happy, though it hasn't seen a whole lot of play yet. I have to blame apartment logistics for this - I just moved out of a building where a classical acoustic guitar was problematic, never mind a gurdy. So IF I had the time, and the inclination, I could take it to the park... IF it wasn't raining or something (in Portland, ha). Prospective players (and there seem to be many about) should keep this in mind: can you play at home, or will your landlord hit the roof? Fortunately I have just recently moved into a house where I can make all kinds of noise, and as soon as everything settles I expect to be making lots of noise, hopefully some of it, erm, beautiful. The recent posts from Sandro struck a chord, because I wanted a gurdy (for so many years!) in order to make a controlled drone as well as craft tunes. Much of my favorite drone music is not HG, but I am familiar with the artists mentioned (Niblock, O'Rourke, Haino), although all my music is still packed up from aformentioned moving "adventure". Personally I agree that the Phill Niblock may be ideal for only very narrow (or very open-minded) tastes - and it is only just barely HG music, being one composition of heavy electronic processing of a sampled HG drone line (Jim O'Rourke). Like a friend of mine says, it's nice enough - if you like that sort of thing.... On the other hand, the Jim O'Rourke CD ("Happy Days" is the one referred to, I believe) is a pretty interesting piece. I'm pretty hot/cold on Mr. O'Rourke (mostly cold, I'm afraid), but I tried SO HARD to like this piece and it eventually clicked, oddly enough while listening to it in the car. Again, it is probably not for all tastes; those who have heard good HG playing will likely cringe at the sound, which must be coming from a poorly set-up instrument (or a purposefully "modified" one, though I suspect the former), and the cranking is not regular and even, to say the least, though again, this may be "intentional". Ah, experimental music... However, as drone/experimental music goes it is just really good, combining the scratchy HG sound with a minimalist, John Fahey-esque steel guitar line that is impossible to escape from. I have to recommend. Keiji Haino has recently released an album of two CDs, one of which is a new piece for HG. I haven't heard it yet, but reports are good. It is on Alien8 Recordings out of Montreal (?) Canada. I am curious to know what other types of drone music, electro and otherwise, HG afficianados are listening to, or trying to produce with their instruments. Certainly it is the most versatile and promising of any acoustic-based instrument in regards to drone and experimentation, and the instrument deserves so much more than the paltry assortment of feedback/amateurism that exists in recordings I've heard, so far... Here is to the never-ending drone, may your arms never weary. Thanks for reading. John = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:54:37 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: Introduction; Electro-Acoustic Drone [HG] John Woosley: > park... IF it wasn't raining or something (in Portland, ha). Prospective > players (and there seem to be many about) should keep this in mind: can you > play at home, or will your landlord hit the roof? It also makes sense to investigate the house for cellars, stokeholds and similar. Some players I know practice at their workplace after work, like in schools or bureaus. > I am curious to know what other types of drone music, electro and otherwise, > HG afficianados are listening to, or trying to produce with their > instruments. Certainly it is the most versatile and promising of any > acoustic-based instrument in regards to drone and experimentation, and the > instrument deserves so much more than the paltry assortment of > feedback/amateurism that exists in recordings I've heard, so far... two bands, and as a part of both one hurdy gurdy master you should have a close ear at: Matthias Loibner playing with "deishovida" ( http://www.deishovida.com/ ) their actuall CD is "gaisfeld" from 1999 and "Sandy Lopicic Orkestar" ( http://www.lopicic.com/ ) right in the moment Matthias Loibner is touring in Australia with Linsey Pollak and Tunji Beier. if you are in electro-accoustic hurdy gurdies far beyond trad you have to have a look at: http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/ (what you never dared to ask for - here it is standard) regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:55:43 -0000 From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com> To: HG <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: [HG] Good to be back! After 2 months of my internet server not talking to the HG internet server, I'm now delighted to be back once more on the list! Just in time to say Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all. I've missed all the chat! Ruthie = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:39:22 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam I felt that was in poor taste; copied below. <Oh, my!! I didn't get far enough to consider the potential ramifications for vielle players... ;-) If you try it on your equipment and you end up with an organistrum, send me before and after pictures, OK?> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:47:44 -0800 From: Pat Nelson <pjs3ds _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Spam spam spam I thought it was a fun play on words. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:55:16 -0500 From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net> Subject: [HG] Warning: Poor taste Well, if a coup de deux is something you hear twice, that might translate as double entendre, which would certainly put comments like that within the purview of this list. And drawing attention to it is only going to encourage more discussion. Maybe you should just let sleeping dogs lie (oops, sorry, another bad h-g pun). I encourage the use of the delete button, and the use of more accurate subject headers so that those who might be offended can delete before opening. (If you reply to this one I know you're cheating). = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:06:43 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Warning: Poor taste Hear, hear- I agree. Felicia. (Hi, John!) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:19:57 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Tasty Puns Dear HG list, Regarding puns, double entendres, and the like: This is a tempest in a hurdy-gurdy shaped teapot. (There really is such a thing - at least one list subscriber has one, for I have seen it with my own eyes. But that's another subject for another post.) So without further ado, here's the Listmaster's Official Policy on Puns. Pay attention, I'm only going to say this once. ;-) - Obviously the original post in question was deemed acceptable for the list, because it came from the Listmaster himself. - Regardless of who it came from, if a list subscriber is offended by the content of a post, the judicious use of the "Delete" key is suggested. Alternatively, the subscriber should bring the matter to the attention of the person who posted it and to the Listmaster, NOT the entire list. - There is no reason why we should label the posts with the double entendres in them. Wordplay is one of the things I live for, as do several of the other subscribers. I see no reason to restrain it. Alden the Listmaster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:17:33 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Pun&Spam , If you remember the french origin , or at least the french developement of the HG , puns , play on words and double entendre must be accepted as normal risk. At least it is less painful than wood chards<g> Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:25:06 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Warning: Poor taste (no HG) Hi John, I agree that we should use the delete key when something isn't on topic. But by that time the person would have already read something he or she thought in poor taste. More accurate subject headers like (no HG) -- as in this case -- when something is off topic would warn a person beforehand that the material is totally off topic. It seems to work on other lists that I'm on. BTW, I saw you at The Speakeasy (NYC) back in the 1980s and learned "Willy's Lady" from you. We do it as an instrument (with me playing it in an open guitar tuning) and call it by its original title, "Son Ar Chistr." Jake Conte: getting excited about the imminent arrival of his electro-acoustic Volksgurdy __ Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style. Order Castle Keep CDs online at: www.cdstreet.com/artists/castlekeep Callithumpian Band on mp3: www.mp3.com/callithumpianband Rock band playing English, Irish, Scottish, Asturian, Galician and Breton music UNDER CONSTRUCTION = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:49:45 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: Introduction; Electro-Acoustic Drone [HG] In a message dated 12/22/01 4:44:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnwoosley _at_ hotmail.com writes: I have a lovely vielle though it hasn't seen a whole lot of play yet. I have to blame apartment logistics for this - I just moved out of a building where a classical acoustic guitar was problematic, never mind a gurdy. Prospective players (and there seem to be many about) should keep this in mind: can you play at home, or will your landlord hit the roof? I have an electro-acoustic hg on order and I already knew about this potential problem. I own my own house so I don't have a problem with the neighbors (at least not yet). My problem is with my two cats!! They ran and hid in the basement when I attempted to practice my bowed psaltery and I acquiesced. But I draw the line at the hurdy gurdy :-) Jake Conte __ Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:56:29 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Tasty Puns (no HG) As I said before in response to John's request for better use of subject headers: the "delete" key is either usually after-the-fact or if you presume a post to be offensive or off-topic. Use of the (no HG) in the subject line alerts a reader that the post contains no direct on-topic hg information. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:11:18 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] End of discussion I see your point. but I really don't think it's that much of an issue. Everything on the list should be related to HG's in some way, otherwise it doesn't belong there. We've spent enough list airtime on this subject. If anyone wants to discuss it with me, please do so offlist. Finis. Alden the Listmaster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:18:11 +0100 From: Melmoth the wanderer <pierre.amadio _at_ libertysurf.fr> Subject: [HG] are cats musician ? Hi there. > I have an electro-acoustic hg on order and I already knew about this > potential problem. I own my own house so I don't have a problem with the > neighbors (at least not yet). My problem is with my two cats!! They ran > and hid in the basement when I attempted to practice my bowed psaltery and I > acquiesced. But I draw the line at the hurdy gurdy :-) Some years ago, i had a try at learning how to make music with a bagpipe. My parents's cats used to be a lot in my room. But when i start practising he looked at me and ran away, never to be seen in my room untill i stop playing for a day or two. I don't try bagpipe anymore, but lastweek, i came back with a brand new hurdy gurdy and had a try doing music with it (well, it's as difficult as with a bagpipe, but the sound sounds less.... loud). The cat was sleeping nearby, started looking at me worried when he saw the instrument. I start turning the wheel, play with the chord a bit looking to tune it (i guess i failed). The cats looked realy bored then. But hey, after a while, he just keep on sleeping (well, trying to) and did not flew away as with the bagpipe. However he looked please when i stopped. I practise again the day after, and this time, he looked used to it. I guess cats just don't like loud sounds, and as any 'normal' person prefer to hear a real musician than someone just trying to make music :) By the way, when i was trying to do bagpipe, i lived with two adorables little rats that where really scared at the instrument sound. Never suceeded at letting them know this was some kind of art. Pierre Amadio = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:51:47 -0800 From: John Woosley <johnwoosley _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Introduction; Electro-Acoustic Drone [HG] >I have an electro-acoustic hg on order and I already knew about this >potential problem. I own my own house so I don't have a problem with the >neighbors (at least not yet). My problem is with my two cats!! They ran >and hid in the basement when I attempted to practice my bowed psaltery and >I >acquiesced. But I draw the line at the hurdy gurdy :-) > >Jake Conte Surprisingly, my cats are fascinated by the sound of the hurdy gurdy, although they keep a safe distance, thankfully. Mine is also an electro-acoustic, and Santa brought me a delay pedal to play around with; I'm pretty excited. The anticipation of one of these instuments can be pretty powerful, and upon arrival it's not unlike having an infant in the house - attention, care, and some pretty weird noises until they get their voices... hope your waiting is over soon! John = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:39:09 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] End of discussion In a message dated 12/23/01 5:12:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, hurdy _at_ silverlink.net writes: I see your point. but I really don't think it's that much of an issue. Everything on the list should be related to HG's in some way, otherwise it doesn't belong there. IYes, but a lot of the things on the list are not directly related to hurdy gurdies. 've been swamped with so many emails (over 950) each day that I've missed most of this debate. From what I read over the few posts is that someone was offended by something that was said, maybe a joke that may have been misunderstood. For the most part I've been lurking on this list because I would like to learn some information on the hurdy gurdy (whether technical, historical or informative) as I have one on order. Most of the topics have been related to the hg, but quite a few are not. I don't have a problem with that, but some people do. The point is that, with those of us whose air time is short or expensive, wading through the non-relevant posts can be time-consuming or expensive. In my case, my server has a limit of 1,000 emails. Any following emails would get "bounced" back to the sender. I hate to miss any emails and I don't like having to arrbitrarily delete posts each day. By designating (no HG) in the subject heading to posts that are off-topic, it would make our jobs easier. I don't think that's asking too much. We've spent enough list airtime on this subject. If anyone wants to discuss it with me, please do so offlist. Finis. Alden the Listmaster Will do, you're the boss. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:25:04 -0000 From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] End of discussion I am sorry. I made the original reply to a post I got from the list as I found the use of the word "equipment" in the original was quite appropriate and it amused me ( and obviously others as well ). I had thought I had joined a list for exchanging details, jokes and information with a group of people that had one thing in common. The love of the hurdy-gurdy. I had not realised that it was a clique for those that were HG players only nor that invitations to come for lunch were classed as "on topic" but tongue in cheek replies to spam messages not filtered out were not. Other musical lists are not so sensitive. Double entendre jokes are, perhaps, too British for some (mainstay of traditional British pantomime) either that or a pre-requisite to play the HG entails having one's sense of humour surgically removed. Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you all:-) CH = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:45:41 -0500 From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net> Subject: Re: [HG] End of discussion Aw, come on, Colin. One person was offended by a very funny joke. (I say that not simply because the joke was the listmaster's - it really _was_ funny). Then we discussed if for a while. That's how lists work. Now we discuss the end of the discussion for a bit. Then we move on. Go enjoy your panto. I remember Arthur Askey at the Kidderminster playhouse, long, long ago. And a group of friends put on an "English" panto here in upstate NY (though I couldn't get to see it). It's hard to explain why the principal boy is a girl (or is it the other way around?). There were no hurdy-gurdies to be seen (ah, now I'm on topic). At the risk of offending Jehovah's Witnesses, not to mention sensitive members of most of the world's major religions, I say Merry Xmas to all, John. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:20:55 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Christmas Greeting from Esa Dear List, Esa Mäkinen sent me a very cool picture as a Christmas greeting for you all, which I put on the hurdygurdy.com website. I'm assuming that Esa is the second from the right. ;-) http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/listarch/images/Esa_2001_Xmas.jpg Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good ... drone? Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:28:39 -0000 From: bourgogne _at_ bourgogne.free-online.co.uk Subject: [HG] Repost ? Another HG description You may have seen this before but I am not sure it made the list with the recent list problems. May be of interest to new readers anyway. Merry Xmas from Teesside. Steve I found the description below in 'A History of Music' Stanford and Forsyth, Macmillan Co, 1925 which I thought you might find interesting. This part followed a lengthy description of pipe organs. It is accompanied by a photo of a conventional 6-stringed lute back with carved head but otherwise basic decoration - wheel cover has a double white line on the perimeter and the table is edged with white checks. It is a right handed instrument and shows the trompette adjuster (not mentioned at all in the text). I can send a scanned picture if required. I cannot say the description makes the workings of a hurdy gurdy crystal clear (even with the picture) and you would not say it is impartial writing.... :^) Steve Words in italics are as per the text in the book. It reads : 'The only other instruments which made their appearance during the first millennium of our era were the organistrum and the fiddle; the one, the ancestor of nothing but the despised hurdy-gurdy; the other, the forerunner of the violin family. The organistrum was a mechanically bowed instrument. It consisted of three heavy gut strings laid parallel to each other in the arc of a circle over a sound-chest. A wheel of wood, faced perhaps with leather and well rosined, pressed against all three strings at the same time and was moved by a crank. A series of movable wooden bridges was used to "stop" the strings simultaneously, and these bridges were controlled by means of wooden pin-heads, which projected outside the instrument. The organistrum was portable and could be placed on the knees of two seated players. As will be explained later, its obvious use was to play the octaves, and fifths, which made up the style called organum (footnote 1). We cannot give an illustration of an organistrum, for no specimens of that instrument are in existence. But, as a makeshift, and in order to show the type to which it belonged we shall include a picture of its descendant, the hurdy-gurdy. This instrument is still common in Europe. It is heard fairly frequently, even in the streets of London. Observe its chief points in the illustration. The wheel is inside the wheel-box (decorated with a double white line). On the extreme left is the crank-handle that turns the wheel. The low outside strings that pass through the wheel-box are the drones. Only one of these is in its place in the photograph - that on the side nearest to the observer. These strings - usually tuned in fifths - are of course not "stopped".The upper string running from the tailpiece (on the left) to the peg-head (on the right) is the one on which the tune is played. Often there are two of these. The little wooded "stopping" pins - seen in a row at the top of the illustration - were originally pulled against the string, but are now pushed by means of wooden finger-pieces on either side. The musical effect of the instrument is -within its limits - by no means uninteresting. We may add that the present photograph is taken from a nineteenth century hurdy-gurdy of French make (footnote 2).' Footnote 1 - The description is by Odo of Cluny; there are also illustrations of this instrument extant. Footnote 2 - The hurdy-gurdy has been favoured with many different names. In France it is known as Vielle a manivelle, Symphonie- or Chyfonie-a-roue; in Germany as Leier combined with some such word as Dreh, Bauern, Rad, Bettler, or Deutsche; in Italy as Lira Tedesca, Lira Rustica, or Lira Pagana. Schubert's "Leiermann" is of course supposed to be playing this instrument. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:37:40 EST From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] are cats musician ? Merry whatever you like, everyone, and a happy new year! Pierre, I loved reading your description of your cat's reaction to bagpipes- our cat Frank put up with a lot of weird noises from me and my husband (we play a lot of music!) but the bagpipe was absolutely unbearable for him! He took one look at the thing, there was one little *squawnk* from the reed and off he went so fast we couldn't see his legs moving! We never laughed so hard in all our lives. Poor Frank- he was so patient with us, and me especially when I started trying to play the fiddle. I knew I was making progress when neither he nor William (my husband) left the room anymore. Interestingly, Frank never minded the gurdy. Even more interesting (for us, that is- sorry if you're bored already with pet tales) was when Frank would sit on William's knee while he played his guitar. The cut-away was exactly the right shape to accomodate him. Sometimes Frank would reach around and delicately pluck at the strings with his teeth- William would fret the strings and Frank would "play" the guitar! Frank is now gone, alas, but Ranzo the Poicephalus parrot is our captive audience now. He loves the mandolin, the piano (though he wants to eat the keys, or your fingers, he can't decide which) and the whistle. He also loves it when we sing songs with his name in it. Is this off topic? Yep- oh, here's how to make it on-topic again- Ranzo tried to eat the peg head of my gurdy one day when I wasn't looking while practicing... Take care everyone, Felicia. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:27:18 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Offensive Material, Pet Sounds, &c --- John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net> wrote: > At the risk of offending Jehovah's Witnesses, not to > mention > sensitive members of most of the world's major > religions, I say Merry > Xmas to all, > John. It beats me why anybody would get their back up when someone wishes them well, but it happens. The Original Christmas Greeting was "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to All Men" (read: "all people"). That's pretty offensive stuff, and in very poor taste <tic>. If that's to much to swallow, at least try to enjoy the music and goodies. This is the season that brings out the best in composers and cooks. (ON TOPIC: I just love the sound of "O Come, O Come Immanuel" with bass drone, and then drop the trompette on for "LIttle Drummer Boy". I am having a bit of trouble with "Blue Christmas" tho' ... any suggestions?) I don't know from cats, but the "literal" dog used to get scarce when I played the HG that I made. Since I got the Siorat, she spends a great deal of time underfoot. She does find someplace else to be when I go to dragging my thumbnail up and down the trompette. But that's an acquired taste, I guess. I just do it to be doing it, I don't like it much, either. <g> Merry , um, er, you know... Roy Trotter. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:28:00 -0500 From: A.J. Bashore II <noizmkr _at_ dcweblink.net> Subject: [HG] Merry Christmas Today is Jesus' Birthday. Wishing Everyone a Joyous and Merry Christmas. May There Forever Be Peace and Joy Throughout the World. And May you All Have, at the very least, Favorite Joyous Music on Your Favorite Instrument Shared with Your Family and Friends. In Harmony, Alf Bashore and Kelli Lambert Hope, Peace, Joy, & Harmony = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 12:55:16 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] happy day 12/25/01 There once was a gurdy that met this nice birdie. "Hey, gurdy," said birdie, "Coo Coo!!" "Oh shoo," said gurdy who was not in the mood. Which made birdie frown, and look to the ground and quietly say, "Hooo are you?" The gurdy was huffy and said quite abruptly, "forgive me but first, 'who are You?' " Said birdie to gurdy: "I come from a town," he said feeling down, "but now I know not where I am. My last name is Clock, and my first one is Coo. I'm Coo C. Clock. How about you?" Gurdy perked up, and thinking, "oh well," said, "listen old chap; you scared me at first. Your noise going off like a sneeze. Was more than expected, my mood was affected by you in your tree...have mercy on me!" "I'm Clarence," said Gurdy, "my card, if I may. My friends never say, 'Boo Hoo, or Coo Coo.' C.G. I just am; that's just who I am. That's just the whole story, C. Coo." "Listen C.G.," said C.C. to Gurd-y, "I say what I say and do what I do... but what do You do? Do tell Mr. Coo. "I spin and delight," said Gurdy to Clock. Can be quite a sight and cause quite a fright; and cause quite a blink from those who can't think!" "How cool," said Coo! C.G. knew it, too. "Let's both join together, like birds of a feather. We'll play a nice song as we walk along. Not even aware, if folks start to stare. We'll make quite a pair, with sounds that we share. We'll have not one care, if even they glare." So that's that and Coo Coo and here here, and Ahhh Chew. ........................ jw = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:17:56 -0000 From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net> Subject: [HG] Spellcheckers Hi, Picked up on this spelling error in the majordomo e-mail Is Microsoft clever or what!! "Many viruses propagate through loopholes in Microsoft Outlook or Outlook Express. We use Eudora, which is more than sufficient for our needs and seems to keep viruses in their place, unopened. We have weathered several waves of virus attacks without any problems. While I understand that Outlook is very popular, it is this popularity (and Microsoft's desire to make it "sexy") which makes it so venerable. We recommend using other email software besides Outlook to avoid most virus problems. " Hmmmm. Happy and prosperous New Year to all. Neil Brook, hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:48:14 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Rob McConnell Hey all: A week or so back I mentioned a HG building course I attended at Rappottenstein Castle in Rappottenstein, Austria this last summer. I have taken a few pictures of the HG I built there and have attached a link to them below. Nothing very professional I am afraid, but they are guaranteed not to offend anyone. The second lats picture is of the instructors, Nupi Jenner and Simone Zopf. In the background you can see the back of Ernst Kainzmeier's head who used to post to the group quite often although I have not seen a post for a while. He introduced me to the course and we became pretty good friends through email and at the course. The last picture is of the castle where we stayed. I have lots of other pictures of the castle grounds, the work shop and the course in action if anyone is interested. The HG is made from Walnut, Maple and Cherry with bits of ebony here and there and boxwood tuning pegs I think. A lot of the tricky parts were pre-fabricated and we had to finish and assemble mostly, but we did make some of the parts ourselves. There was certainly more then enough to keep us busy for the week. We all put in 10-14 hour days followed on several evenings by music and great Austria beer and wine. The head was not carved by me, but by Simone as an embarrassingly in-expensive extra. There were some compromises in the design in order to get a playable instrument in the week of the course duration but I am pretty happy with it. The wheel is made from composite material, not pretty but durable and stable and the overall design is pretty simple. The finish was a quick spray coat of shellac and needs to be redone. I will probably attempt to French polish it over the shellac. The HG itself seems to play okay and the very few people in my part of the world who know enough to have an opinion say it sounds pretty good too. No one in my province in Canada plays the HG as far as I know, so I am out on my own limb trying to tune and play. Mostly I am a builder so that was my main motivation in attending the course but I am having fun with it. We stayed right at the castle for the week and all meals and accomodation were included in the cost for the course, which was surprisingly reasonable. Our rooms were modern and comfortable, although at the end of several hundred steps up through the castle (at least it felt like several hundred, especially after a couple of those big bottles of Austrian beer). They even provided accomodation and meals for my wife. Food was excellent, beer was even better of course. Rappottenstein is in the middle of the forest district of Austria so it was quiet and rural for the most part. Pretty cool too compared to the rest of Europe. We had to mail heavy sweaters and fleece home after we left Rappottenstein for Italy where it hit a high of 42C (107F) in Florence!!! The castle was started in the 13th century and the current owners family has been living there since the 1600s. They invited all of us for wine one evening and were very gracious. A bit perplexed at finding a Canadian in their midst though. Simone and Nupi teach at a College in Hallstatt, Austria which teaches musical instrument making (baroque styles), interior design, furniture design, cabinetry making and sculpture. We serendipitously spent two days there after the course and it is a very pretty, historic town. Simone and Nupi were amazingly well organized, and along with the 8 Hurdy Gurdies there were also two lutes and one mandola made the same week. They were following that up with a full slate of lutes the following week. What amazed me was the quality of the instruments that were produced. Even people who had very little skills going in left with very presentable instruments. (Although these were Austrians and Germans and I have come to the conclusion they are over achievers!!!). Half the people at the course spoke very good English and the rest understood I think so language was not a barrier. Best part of the course were the friends we made. More then a few teary eyes at the parting. Thank god for email. Here is the link to the pictures: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=78443988203&n=630946630 Hope you enjoy them. Rob McConnell = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:49:29 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Mike Gilpin Just to wish all you fellow gurdy people a wonderful Christmas and Happy = New Year! Mike Gilpin www.hurdygurdy.biz (Listmaster's note: Sorry I took so long to forward this!!!) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:11:14 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Canadians eh ? Of wich Canadian province are you from Rob ? Bonne et Joyeuse Année a tous les vielleux et a ceux qui dansent sur leur musique . ( Happy New Year to all HG players and to those who dance of their music ) Henry Boucher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:24:27 +0100 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com> Subject: [HG] Rapottenstein course This is an answer to Rob McConnell so if not interested skip or delete .I don't have his email adress so... I'm very impressed about the foto's. Is this instrument realy build in 1 week? Maybe I want to follow a course there. Have you info about prices for the course the stay and the materials? Marc Reymen reymen _at_ pandora.be = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:16:59 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Rapottenstein course Hello, this site is in german, but maybe it will help you: http://www.arthoc.or.at/musikfabrik/lauten.html (there are hurdy gurdy classes for beginners and advanced players at the BordunMusik-Fest in Kremsmuenster, about 150 km from Rapottenstein from 24. to 27. of July) Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:33:09 -0000 From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: [HG] From Rob McConnell A good week's work! But do tell us what is going on in picture no 9. George Swallow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:36:11 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] From Rob McConnell > >But do tell us what is going on in picture no 9. I believe he's pumping up that mandolin to make it into a cittern. See the air hose? ;-) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:37:25 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] Also from Rob This picture is of Nupi and Simone spraying finish on outside the workshop. The finish was several coats of shellac. Shellac was used because it dries so quickly, which allowed everyone to get a finish on the instrument before the course ended. You can also french polish over the shellac if you want, which is what I might do. The arch in the back is the doorway to the workshop, which in former times was the brewery. It dates to the 16th century I think. It is half under ground, so was a bit damp. We had a fire in a stove at the back to reduce the humidity in that area where the unfinished instruments and wood was kept overnight. Rob McConnell |
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