Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - December 2001
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:48:33 -0500
From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 09:19:46PM -0800, Vincent Ho wrote:
> NOT by much. I have two shawms myself so I know. The problem is not just
> it is loud, but it screams. It is probably good for playing dance music
> outdoor. To use it as a drone for singing is quite an overkill. Drones
> supposed to sound humming..not screeching ;)
Hey, when you sing as poorly as I do, every little bit helps. ;)
Seriously, after playing with mine for a while, I got it to be loud
but not screechy. It took a long time to realize what I should adjust,
and how to get it fully in tune.
greg
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:33:05 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
I don't recall a request for info lately that matches this. We can build
our symphonie with fewer strings, one row of keys, etc. I draw the line at
hand-forging the shaft or using a solid-wood wheel... ;-) (Actually, we're
willing to do these things - just that we haven't found people willing to
give us the kind of financial backing needed to make it possible.
>I got a call (as you probably did as well, Cali and Alden; she said she
>might try to call you, too) today from a woman who is looking for a
>medieval synfonia style hurdy-gurdy to accompany her singing of medieval
>music. I don't have similar to what she wants, and I don't really know
>what's out there in North America to direct her to. She seems to want a
>real replica: few strings, diatonic, etc.
Alden
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:38:35 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
>
>Sounds like she wants the Kelischek screamingly 13th century Spanish
>hurdy gurdy. www.susato.com.
Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used -
which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic
parts somewhat problematic.
Alden
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:04:39 -0500
From: Greg Lindahl <lindahl _at_ pbm.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:38:35PM -0800, Alden & Cali Hackmann wrote:
> Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used -
> which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic
> parts somewhat problematic.
I suspect the buyer is capable of deciding about that. I don't know of
any other maker doing rectangular gurdies like that, or I would have
mentioned them as well.
greg
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:00:49 EST
From: RJNA _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
>Not to be a stickler for detail, but I think the word "replica" was used -
>which would make the use of guitar tuning machines and all the plastic
>parts somewhat problematic.
My husband just modified the Kelischek he made for me a few years ago, by
removing the heads of the guitar tuning machines and replacing them with ones
he carved from a piece of wood. Then he built a little wooden box with four
sides that fits over the whole tuning area and hides the rest of the chrome
parts. He had replaced the plastic handle with a wooden one almost
immediately because the plastic handle was too flimsy. The plastic keys are
still there, but at least they are dark.
For cosmetic reasons, he had replaced the plastic buttons to cover the screws
with wooden ones.
I've played this instrument at Amherst and other medieval gigs, and have only
had one complaint about the chrome tuning machines (hence, the changeover to
wooden heads), but this was from a person who plays a portative organ not
with the hand pumped bellows but hooked up to a vacuum cleaner motor. Go
figure.
Rebecca Arkenberg
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:51:47 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] What' this list about anyway?
O.K. Randy,
Don't think I Didn't think about your contribution of the last word to
the first verse! I was Trying to be nice about RT.
Diana :-))))))
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Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:45:06 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
At 11:38 PM 11/30/01 -0800, you wrote:
Thanks for the info, everyone. Alden, I used the word "replica" without
much thought as to how it could be interpreted. I just don't know if this
person really wants an authentic "replica" (there, I said it!), or if she
would be satisfied with the basic look and sound without worrying about
modern advances.
I can't seem to find a current website for Bernard Ellis; anyone know how
to contact him?
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:29:26 EST
From: Trackorg _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Bernard Ellis is deceased. He died last year....very suddenly after an
illness. His entire business is closed.
I am in communication with his widow, Megan. It was all very sad.
Sincerely,
Brother Mark
Holy Trinity Friary
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Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:46:33 +0100
From: Alexander Engel <artengel _at_ aon.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Dear Matt,
I have to tell you and the hurdy-gurdy-list that Bernard Ellis died. I can't
remember when, because I only knew his homepage with beautiful pictures of
his instruments.
with kind regards
alexander engel
PS. I am a silent reader of the list for a short time, i will start a
workshop of different string instrument but I am still in the period of
experiment and completing the workshop.
...............................................................
alexander engel
a u s t r i a
electronic mail artengel _at_ aon.at
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:53:10 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] medieval synfonia "replica"
Did the list start a "joke of the year contest"?....:o).
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:58:09 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Chris Allen, who lives in Wales makes synfonies here's his web address:
http://www.luthiers60.freeserve.co.uk/instruments.html
He has done repair work on both my hurdy-gurdies and my renaissance lute
and i'm very pleased with his craftmanship
Nicholas
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:52:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia "replica"
--- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote:
>
> Did the list start a "joke of the year
> contest"?....:o).
I'm not aware of it, but I believe your description of
demonstrating the various parts, especially the "cruel
version" is still firmly in first place. ;-)
Roy Trotter
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:22:13 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
In a message dated 11/12/01 2:54:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it writes:
(by the way, I think that hurdy-gurdies are relatively
less expensive than several other instruments).
I can't think of any instrument that is relatively more expensive than a
hurdy gurdy -- if the average cost of a *decent* hurdy gurdy is US $2,500 -
$3,000, aside from maybe custom-ordered instruments. The cost of hurdy
gurdies make them prohibitive as instruments for the casual player, unless
you buy one of the inexpensive kits.
A 1980 vintage Gibson Les Paul sells at my local musical instrument shop for
$1,700. Quality acoustic guitars, electric basses, banjos and mandolins are
in the $1,000 - $1,500 range. A quality intermediate sterling silver
concert flute is under $2,000.
Jake Conte
__
Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep
English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style.
Callithumpian Band on mp3: www.mp3.com/callithumpianband
Rock band playing English, Irish, Scottish, Breton, Galician and Asturian
Music
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:22:16 -1000
From: Don V.Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
If you take into account the time, materials and knowledge needed to
make each instrument you mentioned, per hour labor will come out very
close.
A good modern violin, for example, would cost $5000 and upwards.
Don
donvlax _at_ maui.net
<http://www.mauiviolin.com>
PMB 503, PO Box 959, Kihei, HI, 96753
808-875-8794
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:16:30 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Don,
I've seen violins for as little as US $100 to well over $10,000, but the
comment was "relative." Maybe "relative" needs to be defined as I'm sure a
very good playing violin can be bought for under $2,000. I've also seen
concert flutes for as little as US $200 to a "professional" model for $3,000.
And, I'm not certain, but "really good" flutes can go over $10,000.
So, maybe we have to define what "relative" is. I was going uinder the
assumption that an "intermediate" quality hurdy gurdy costs $2,500 - $3,500
and a "professional" model costs $5,000 - $6,000.
Since I deal with "typical" instruments on a day-to-day basis (guitars,
electric basses, mandolins, banjos, drums, brass and woodwind instruments),
these were the criteria I used for "relative."
Jake Conte
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:00:49 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hi Jake
> I can't think of any instrument that is relatively
> more expensive than a
> hurdy gurdy
My suggestion is: try to built a "decent" instrument
and then write me again....:o)
I'm a not professional musical instrument builder so
my experience is not so wide but I can make 4 "decent"
guitars in the same time I need to make a "decent"
hurdy-gurdy.
> Quality acoustic guitars, electric basses,
> banjos and mandolins are
> in the $1,000 - $1,500 range.
so...one HG should cost 4000-6000.....as I told you:
HG are less expensive! :o)
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:32:56 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Dear Jake,
I just can't pass this one up. A good guitar builder can make 4 guitars
in the time it takes to build one good hurdy-gurdy and the guitar does not
need the additional setup time required for a hurdy-gurdy once construction
is complete. Setup time ranges from 8 to 15 hours depending on the
instrument (sometimes more).
So if the guitar builder is selling for an average of $1,500 which is what
a well built guitar sells for in this neck of the woods. A guitar builder
needs relatively few tools to practice his trade and many of the parts for
the instrument are available ready made. So, four guitars get the luthier
$6,000 and the overhead is considerably less. And as much respect as I
have for a well-built guitar, it is like making a tinkertoy figure in
comparison with a steel high rise. The guitar builder is actually making a
whole lot more per hour than a hurdy-gurdy builder. Quite frankly I could
make more per hour working for McDonalds. I build for love and for a
subsistence living, in fact, around here we call it a lifestyle choice
rather than a living.
Now if you really want to talk about expensive instruments, lets talk about
violin and bow makers. And have you priced cellos lately?
:-)-----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:47:09 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
I need to add one more piece to this.
A reasonably cheap guitar can be played and make music which will not
offend the ears. I have played little plastic song flutes that made
pleasant music for the average listener. With a hurdy-gurdy it either is
made well and works or it doesn't. Not much space in between. I have seen
and played some beautifully appointed hurdy-gurdies that were lovely
wall-art, but not musical instruments. And with the hurdy-gurdy the last
thing you do is string and adjust the instrument. Unlike a guitar or
violin which can be strung up "in the white" and a pretty good estimate of
its final tone can be judged, the hurdy-gurdy can't be play until it is
finished. So if you build a "dud" you don't know until you have put 450
hours into it. This can be a very painful lesson.
:-)----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:12:09 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] criteria used for "relative."
A "decent" hurdy-gurdy must be made (and adjusted) by
hands only, and with the help of lot of hardare...
Do you think it's enough?
Another thing: a 3000 $ "basic" HG can play as good as
a 6000 $ "beautiful" HG...so if you don't mind about
it, you can play a "good sound, not so good looking"
instrument.....You can't do the same with violins or
gambas of recorders, or guitars....thry all are always
"beautiful"....if you know what I mean.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:42:39 -0500
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Price ...
This hits the real issue. As long as demand for HGs is (numerically) low,
there is no way for the price to come down. *If* there were tens of
thousands or hundreds of thousands of people demanding good-quality
low-priced HGs then the price could (and would) come down.
It is all simple economics. Could someone make a good HG for under $1000
(marginal unit cost)? Yes, but they'd probably have to spend $1,000,000 to
get there and since they are unlikely to sell 1000 HGs they wouldn't even be
at the break-even point. When someone can sell 10,000 or 100,000 instruments
though, then this sort of thing becomes possible.
The difficulty lies partially in the instrument (aside from construction
issues). Not everyone can play HG (i.e., they don't have the patience, the
coordination, or something else), where it seems like every dumb punk out
there has played guitar for a garage band. Guitars are just easier (and, to
be honest, more versatile), so there is a mass market for them and that
$1,000,000 can be recouped in volume. Without the volume the HG won't ever
be an industrial commodity.
I agree with Henry. I like the fact that this is something not mass
produced.
As much as I love the HG if every pop band out there used one I would find
the HG to have lost some of its appeal.
Regards,
Arle
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:54:34 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Rob McConnell
Just to throw my two cents in here regarding the costs of musical
instruments and
HGs in particular.
It is inappropriate and unfair to compare the price of custom built HGs with
flutes, violins, brand name guitars or other major market instruments. These
instruments, even the high end expensive models, are all the result of some
kind
of manufactory, rather then built by hand. They take advantage of mass
buying,
autimation, cheap labour. If there were 100,000 HGs sold every year then you
would see the range of prices you see on these other instruments, from cheap
through to inexpensice through to very expensive. The fact that HGs are not a
main stream instrument means that you have to go to specialized custom builders
for a good instrument. No matter how you slice it a HG takes a lot of time to
build. I would say from experience to do so in less then 150 hours would
be very
surprising. Even at 100 hours at $25.00 per hour plus materials, you can
do the
math and see where the cost comes from. And out of this the custom builder
has to
support himself, his family and cover his overhead. These people have to
make a
living or they will disappear. It is the unfortunate situation in our society
that craftsmanship is rarely appreciated by the majority of people, and rarely
given the value it deserves.
Bottom line is that if you can't afford the price of a custom built HG then
look
for alternatives, but don't ever think these prices are unreasonable. Kits
offer
one alternative, another is a course I took in Austria last summer. I got
a very
nice HG and a week of instruction for around US$1,000.00. Nothing to compare
with some of the custom builders around, but a servicable instrument. We
made a
holiday out of it and had a great time. By the way, during that week I
invested
about 90 hours of labour, and a significant number of the parts were already
fabricated, needing only finishing.
On the custom built guitar front, if there are luthiers out there selling there
guitars for $1,500.00 or less then they are either amateurs, part time
builders,
supplementing their income from somewhere, selling at a loss trying to make
a name
for themselves, living with their parents, not really making custom built
gutars
but rather assembled guitars having lots of pre-fabricated purcahsed parts,or
won't be in business long. I have first hand knowledge of this because my
son is
a buddding luthier and a very good one. He has studied with Jose
Romanillos and
makes exciting, excellent guitars. In order to make a decent living at
$1,500 per
guitar he would have to make 40 to 50 guitars a year. There is no way you
can do
this without jigging up to the point where you have a small factory which
defeats
the purpose of custom building, or charge more for your guitars. Check out the
successful small builders of guitars and they are charging a lot more then
$1,500.00 per instrument.
Rob McC
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:35:37 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Price ...
Hi,
Even if I only made one HG in my life and never bought one
I just can not resist jumping in this discussion <g>
HGs are not like guitars , face the facts.
99 % of all guitars in use today were made in factories and were
sold in stores . The single idea of selling HGs at wholesale price to a
store
is at best weird . CAMAC co. tried it is the mid '70 in France
and it did not work . The dream of an affordable ( read :dirt cheap )
beginners model is just that : a dream ( wich is still better than a
nightmare:
http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&
Store_Code=MK&Category_Code=Hu
Does somebody remember the " dulci-gurdy " ? )
The fact that an experienced maker like Kurt Reichman is still
trying
leave a lot of people wondering.....
If it is possible to make Chinese violins, Korean pianos and
Pakistani
bagpipes , the idea of a HG factory in Taiwan could be , in theory,
possible .
But the market is very different , the Korean piano factories have
not yet ( as far as I know ) proposed low priced harpsichords
to the musically starving masses . Folk and early music instruments
are not yet an industrial commodity . The player still buys his
instrument
from the maker from direct contact with the luthier..
Just to make things worse .... I mean , more interesting ,
One can not just buy a HG and start to play , at least not for
very long , or call the piano tuner for an annual visit .
The player has to learn the basic maintenance of the instrument .
All this make the HG very special and to tell the truth : I like it
that way .
Henry Boucher
( ...but cheaper bass drone strings would not hurt <g>)
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:49:00 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy gurdy community
In a message dated 12/6/01 7:44:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, fenevad _at_ ttt.org
writes:
>I agree with Henry. I like the fact that this is something not mass
>produced.
>As much as I love the HG if every pop band out there used one I would find
>the HG to have lost some of its appeal.
I agree totally. I don't own a hurdy gurdy yet as I've been patiently
waiting two years for mine to be built. I've also never held one and have
noticed that the hurdy gurdy community seems like a close-knit, world-wide
community that is very passionate about their instrument. I haven't seen
this intense passion for any other instrument.
Jake Conte
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:15:50 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
The Hurdy-Gurdy in Eighteenth-Century France
(Publications of the Early Music Institute)
by Robert A. Green
anyone ever heard of it? I have a CD of Mr. Green's
that has a lot of baroque sounding courtesan music
on it.
Bob Mackie
hoping to build an hg and not make too much a mess
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:56:30 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
If you want Green's book I suggest you order it from Boulder Music.
http://www.bems.com It could be ages before you get it from Amazon.
Boulder won't charge you tax and it will come in a reasonable amount of
time. BTW I don't work for Boulder. I have just ordered enough things from
Amazon to be totally disenchanted.
Joan
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:58:16 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
I wrote a review of this book for the Hurdy-Gurdy Society newsletter a few
years ago. It's pretty much on the scholarly side, a little dry for the
average reader. ;-) I'd recommend it for a baroque music player, or for
someone interested in a Really Complete hurdy-gurdy library.
I'm surprised it's still available - I thought it was out of print, and the
editor at Indiana University Press indicated to me that they had no intent
of reprinting.
Alden
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:47:00 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hi. RE: too expensive.
It's not easy to make a Hurdy Gurdy. A year ago I suddenly yearned, I
think insanity like this either genetic or there was something in the
water at Fort Flagler, to make my own instrument. My progress is s-l-o-w
but sure. Marcello and Alden are helping me learn the basics. At every
step I need a new piece of equipment I can't afford. Hobby-class planners
cost $350, routers, $150, Bandsaws, $350 and on and on and on.
The price of the machinery needed by the professional luthier is VASTLY
steeper. Unless you intend to whiddle one, good luck, the serious luthier
needs to either take out a loan or rob a bank to get the bucks to equip
the shop. By the time I finish, and I'm just a hack making an HG that may
not work at all, I could have bought the best HG made by the indubitable
Indianola duo.
Seriously, give some thought to what it means to make a business of
making musical instruments. First of all the perspective luthier has to
learn how to do it. That means learning to use the equipment before you
learn to make the instrument. It takes time to learn to use equipment.
High School shop class one semester isn't enough. If you think managing
a bandsaw, a table saw, a router is a snap, I suggest you carefully
conside how fond you are of the current length of your fingers.
While learning about equipment he/she reads everything about the craft.
Problem is the books are all, or mostly all in French or German.
So....want to learn to make a Gurdy? then learn to read French and German
in your spare time.
Once you kinda have the idea down then take six months to a year or
longer to apprentice yourself to a builder who will actually show you how
to do what you've been reading about. Let me tell you as a VERY NOVICE,
NoviceLuthier, it is quite a different thing to make a part from a
drawing or paragraph's description, than to make one after being shown
what to do.
Hummmm? How do you make a living while apprenticing?
Once you think you know what to do, you have to practice what you think
you know and ruin a lot of instruments because you don't know what you
thought you knew. Time passes. Still no $$$$. Since making gurdies is not
the same as making "some" other instruments, you can't just make one out
of a sheet of plywood like you can a dulcimer or other folk instruments.
It won't play . Sooooo, you have to practice on some pretty pricy woods.
If you screw up, $350 just went down the drain. That money and all the
other money came from savings you set aside from another job. I'm just
making one instrument and money is leaking out all over the place.
All this takes time and during that time the professional luthier is not
earning a sou.
Days, nights, weeks, months, years go into learning and practicing until
the characteristics of the instrument begin to become second nature and
in the end, maybe the luthier(s) discover they are making beautiful
instuments and they still can't make a living at it. Maybe, perish the
thought, she or he still works at a full time job doing something else. I
know five instrument builders, every one of them makes beautiful
instruments, all but one has another full time job.
Weekends off? What weekends? Vacations? Oh yeah, that's the time you
spend 18 hrs a day filling orders. On top of all this, a failed
instrument takes just as much time to make as one that plays like the
very angels sing and nobody gives the luthier the time back.
The only problem with the instrument might have happened because you were
very tired the night you made part number 99d.4.098 or maybe you spent 15
hours on the wheel and your hand slipped or you looked away or you were
just tired and now you have to make the part all over again. When's the
last time any one of us cut a perfect circle out of paper let alone wood.
Most of us can't cut oranges into neat little wedges yet alone get the
back of a lute-back to come out right.
All those itty bitty thingies that make up a goodie gurdie take a lot of
time, care and precision. If they're not made with love, they don't turn
out. It doesn't take many tiny errors to add up to a purdy nurdy gurdy.
Gosh. Am I on a soap box or something!!!
I guess so, but really, the price is not outrageous for the work that
goes into the beasties.
Once finished the warrantee on the hand-made instrument from you local
builder is usually for life. Unless you back over your Gurdy Baby or slam
it in the car door, Cali and Alden will usually hone and tweek and fix
and tinker with it until it plays again.
If the Gurdy isn't working when for some unknown reason you managed to
turn a perfectly wonderful instrument into a sqwak box because of
something you didn't know you were doing until Cali and Alden pointed out
what you did, they fix it. Just try that with a mail order instrument or
a kit. Alden and Cali and Marcello have tinkered with my baby minstrel
many times. Problem? A squeek. There's a mouse in the box I say. Hummmmm?
they say. They listen, listen, listen as they turn, turn turn. Ummmmmm!
they say. Presto, fixo, years of building and reading and learning and
just messing around with the instrument lead them to the most likely
cause. The price to me? A one time free, no money down and no money
back guarantee of momentary humiliation when I realize what an idiot I
am. I shoulda known what was daMatta.
So. When we buy from a luthier we are not just paying for the instrument
he or she puts in our hands the day we take delivery (with or without a
pink or blue blanket.) We are paying for years of learning when they
didn't make a dime while spending every cent they could beg, borrow or
steal on equipment. We're also paying for their willingness to take a
risk on becoming luthiers when we preferred to make a living doing
something a lot more sure fire. In the end, they have the hands of
surgeons the heads of physicists and the hearts of creative artists. In
case you haven't noticed, creative artists don't make a &^## of a lot of
money in our culture.
Put it into perspective with just one example. Six months ago I had to
replace a crown on a tooth that had broken. It broke because the root was
ill so I had to pay an endodontist as well. I paid a total of $2650.89
to my dentist and endodontist. My dentist spent an hour and 45 minutes
with me. The endodonist spent an hour. There was the cost of the gold,
the lab fees for the lost wax cast of the crown (just one little piece of
hand crafted metal versus the many in a Gurdy) and about an hour
of finish work by the dentist before he seated the crown. Cali and Alden
probabably spent as much time learning to be luthiers as my dentist spent
learning to be a dentist. I doubt their outlay for equipment is a whole
lot cheaper than his, but they don't make the same money. Of course I
can still chew if they screw up, but there are days when I think it might
be better if I chewed less. ;-) I paid for the dentist's expertise and
the reality they did something for me I couldn't hope to do for myself.
Well, I could have pulled out my own tooth, but wouldn't have been fun. I
like the crown. It makes chewing easier. I love the Gurdy. It makes life
easier.
If you are still reading, my advise is to get on the list of your local
builder before it gets even longer, pay the deposit, it's often mostly
refundable, and start to save your money. A good HG from a good luthier
will probably take several months waiting time on a list and a few months
to build. Trust me, you'll have plenty of time to save your money. :-)
My root canal and crown would pay for a Volksgurdy plus case, tuner and
strap and I don't have to stare in my mouth with a flashlight to see my
Hurdy Gurdy.
CYA all at the Gurdy Play day
Joan D'Andrea
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:59:37 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
Yes I have read it. It is not going to replace Harry Potter on the all time
sales list.
But if you want to find out about Baroque Music and the Hurdy Gurdy there
are not too many books out there to read. You will learn a lot.
Also try to learn Itialian and get a copy of Marcello Bono's book
La Ghironda
1989, no ISBN, published by Arnoldo Forni Editore, Bologna, Italy
r.t.
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:04:53 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
I got the book (ISBN 0-253-20942-0) : it worth all the
effort and money!
Forget the CD: the book is FAR better than those.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:17:53 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press
Robert A Green CD 18th Century French Music For Hurdy Gurdy
http://www.google.com/search?q=Robert+A.+Green+Hurdy+Gurdy&btnG=Google+Searc
h
A few recordings of the vielle music of the French baroque are available.
One by Robert Green himself, French Music for Hurdy-Gurdy (FOCUS {USA} 932),
includes a survey of original vielle works, including compositions by Joseph
Bodin de Boismortier, Michel Corrette, Jean-Baptiste Dupuits, Philbert de
Lavigne, and A. Tolou, as well as 18th-century arrangements of two pieces by
François Couperin. It is interesting that few, if any, of the pieces which
Green speaks of most highly (or in most detail) in his book are represented
in his recording. As an example, after spending more space on the composer
Jean-Baptiste Dupuits than on any other, and speaking with such praise of
his Pièces de caractère (Op.5; 1741), Green represents Dupuits on his
recording by only one such character piece.4 This piece, Le Guerrière, is
quite interesting in its sequential exchange of dance-like triplet
figurations with military-fanfare motifs in duple time, but seems perhaps a
minor work compared to pièces de caractère such as ones as musically complex
as L'Unique and Le Labyrinthe, which Green describes in his text.
try finding it in the above href. I connnot remember which online music
source
I got mine from, although I do think it was Canadian.
Bob Mackie
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:37:52 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Great post, Joan!
Now can you refer me to a good dental school? ;-) ;-)
Alden (and Cali)
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:51:19 -0800
From: David Echelard <echelard _at_ hbci.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] I got mine from IU press
I ordered mine via telephone calling directly to Indiana university press.
And as a member of "early music America" I received a discount and It
was sent to me in 5 days ....and its been a great resource.
Where can A person get his cd?
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:58:00 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
Very interesting but... really aimed at the baroque
repertoire , not much about the instrument itself .
Amazon does not have it in stock ,they order it
and then ship it to you , I waited a few months for mine .
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:20:33 +0000
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: [HG] hurdy gurdy "trial"
While looking through Cambridge University Library catalogue, I came
across this intriguing entry:
Author: Sampson, William, 1764-1836
Title: A faithful report of the trial of Hurdy Gurdy [microform]:
tried and convicted of a seditious libel in the Court of
King's Bench, on the testimony of French Horn, the
approver: with the arguments of counsel, and the charge of
the learned chief justice to the jury
New-York: Published and sold by Bernard Dornin, 1806
39 p
Notes: Microfiche: Worcester, Mass.: American Antiquarian Society,
[199-?]. 1 microfiche ; 11 x 15 cm. (Early American
imprints. Second series ; no. 10383)
References: Shaw & Shoemaker 10383
Has anyone heard of this, or seen it before? Is it worth the time for me
to get the library to extract it from the microfilm?
Thanks,
Dave
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:46:50 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] hurdy gurdy "trial"
Dear David,
I think there is mention of this in Susann Palmer's book ~ I check over
the weekend and report back
regards
nicholas
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:57:35 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] 18th century HG music list
Dear friends
At last my revised list of "baroque HG music" is
ready: the old one was in my own book that is becoming
too old (just like me...)
You can find it here
www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045/musica.html
I hope you like it, and I hope you'll help me with
suggestions, corrections and informations.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:27:03 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
Hi again. I found Green's book at Powell's on line. Same price, three days
delivery, no tax, shipping not included.
Joan
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:31:01 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
OK Alden. Bu you already have a fulltime second job.
;-/
Joan
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:12:40 -0600
From: Patricia A. Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: [HG] new address
Hi, folks,
I have a new email address listed in address heading. Please delete my
old one because I'm getting some messages in duplicate.
BTW, as someone who's participated in ferry demos of Scottish folk
dancing, a ferry concert doesn't sound strange to me.
Trish
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:26:25 -0800
From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
I can think of a lot of instruments that are a lot more expensive than my
Hurdy-Gurdy and are in the mainstream as instruments go. First off you
can buy a very nice instrument from Olympic Musical Instrument for around
$1,000. Those of us who own their Minstrel Hurdy-Gurdies are extremely
satisfied with the quality and capabilities of the instument. They are
attractive, extremely stable (rarely needs more than a tweek to tune
them, even when playing outside in the heat or cold), and have a chien.
Anyway, a decent clarinet or oboe costs $3,500 dollars, more for a
professional or custom instrument. A good flute is $1,500 and a French
Horn is $2,700. We aren't even looking at harps, harpsichords, pianos,
lutes, or any number of more obscure instruments. People who are "into"
instruments will spend a lot of money for quality instruments. If a HG
is good, paying $2,500 or more is well worth it. As the old addage goes:
you get what you pay for. But with the Olympic Musical Instrument's
Minstrel HG you get more than you pay for (as compared to other $1,000
hurdy-gurdies). There is a lot work put into a hurdy-gurdy and a lot of
research and development.
Guitars, when compared to some other instruments are "easy" to build.
There is alot more hand work that has to be done on the HG, so it is
reasonable to expect them to cost more.
Well, that's my $.02 worth.
Katie Roe
My soul can find no staircase to heaven unless
it be through Earth's loveliness.
-Michelangelo
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:13:42 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
I have to throw in my two pennyworth (or cents, depending which side of the
pond you are on)
It is really unfair to compare mass-produced instruments to craftsman-built
ones.
A concertina (English style rather than Anglo) which is at the "lower" end
of the price range will probably cost in the region of £400. My Wheatstone
48 key aeola is insured for over five times that amount. Yes there is a
difference and I consider myself fortunate to own it. In every musical
instrument there is a "basic" form which may play true notes but that
doesn't mean it's any good. A craftsman puts the "soul" into the instrument.
That's his craft - otherwise he would be a carpenter if his/her instrument
lacked that special quality.
I would doubt that many orchestra players have instruments "off the
shelf"for the same reason.
The cost of the HG would not come down if demand increased. We would just
get soulless lumps of wood making noises churned out by a factory and
probably checked by someone with a tin ear.
OK, I'm off my soap-box now.
Colin
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:44:24 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
In a message dated 12/7/01 2:26:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com writes:
I can think of a lot of instruments that are a lot more expensive than my
Hurdy-Gurdy and are in the mainstream as instruments go. First off you
can buy a very nice instrument from Olympic Musical Instrument for around
$1,000.
I don't doubt that thia instrument ia of very good quality but, if I'm
correct, it is very limited in what it can do. I know I'm opening up
myself for bombardment, but a diatonic instrument (to me, at least) is
very limited in what it can do and what it can be used for.
Anyway, a decent clarinet or oboe costs $3,500 dollars, more for a
professional or custom instrument. A good flute is $1,500 and a French
Horn is $2,700. We aren't even looking at harps, harpsichords, pianos,
lutes, or any number of more obscure instruments. People who are "into"
instruments will spend a lot of money for quality instruments.
Again, "decent" and "relative" are very vague and subjective
descriptions. From what I've seen in catalogs, a $3,500 clarinet, a
$1,500 flute and a $2,700 French horn are slightly more than *decent*
instruments, as I can get a *decent* flute for about $700 - $800. I
don't know much about clarinets and French horns, but I would guess they
are comparable.
I'm not questioning the cost of a hurdy gurdy (as I have one on order).
I was questioning the use of the term "relative." Those of us who live
in the real world, the cost of a good quality hurdy gurdy is very
expensive compared to the instruments we play every day. I play acoustic
and electric guitars, mandolin, electric 5-string bass, bowed psaltery,
tenor and 6-string banjo and a variety of keyboards and synthesizers and
none approach the cost of a hurdy gurdy.
And I know that when I finally have my own hurdy gurdy in my hands that
it will be my favourite of all my instruments. As I said before I've not
seen the passion people have for their instruments as I've seen of hurdy
gurdy players. Or are they hurdy gurdiests? Or hurdy gurdii?
Jake Conte
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:01:02 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Could someone please volunteer to tell me where the sound that
the trompette/chien comes from when the hg player makes the
coup with their wrist that generates the vibration for it?
Is it the fitting the key is in (the actual chien) or is it
the trompette string rattling around in the bridge? Or what?
I am not very close physically to somewhere that I can have
a look for myself, the closest I probably am to any Hgs
at all would be the Hackman's shop.
Thanks in advance
Bob Mackie
challenged not only by dollars on hand, but by distance, too.
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:10 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] I ordered this book from Amazon
Hi Bob,
it`s great if you want to know something about baroque HG music.
greetings
Petra
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:41:40 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
To: Hurdygurdymailinglist
[something missing]
he coup there´s an acceleration of the wheel which
makes the string vibrate a bit more, which makes the little wooden "feet"
move and "beat" fastly on the soundboard.
greetings
Petra
.
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:38:52 -0500
From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <fournierbru _at_ securenet.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
The buzzing is caused by the rattling of the bridge holding the
trompette onto the top of the instrument. The bridge actually sits on
one leg, the other leg being shorter and therefore rattling. The
princinple is the same as the Trumpet Marine (tromba marina).
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
(Lute player not yet a hurdy gurdy player)
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Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:58:49 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Ahhhh! Just as I suspected. It is NOT metaphysical in nature. There
is a mechanical thing happening here. the legs/feet that the chien
bridge has under it (never to be seen in photos of Hg's) jump up and
down excitedly on the soundboard at or near the tail piece when the
coup is performed.
thanks to Bruno and Petra, both (so far)
Bob Mackie
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:03:27 EST
From: Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hello Alden and Cali! Please make note of my new e-mail address
and add it to the HG list. My aol account will be closing as of the
middle of this month. Also you will be able to contact me via my new
address when you get to making my hurdy gurdy, which I can't wait for
and am looking forward to! Oh . . . did I mention that I can't wait for
my HG?!#%^&*# _at_ $!!!!!!! Thanks so much and I hope you're both doing
well this holiday season! :)
Judy Laub
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:43:54 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Ebay Listing
Dear list,
I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that there's an HG for sale on
Ebay. Its item number is 1494038793. Looks like a real beauty - the
description says it was built about 1850 by Colson a Mirecourt. I like the
arrogant French scowl on the carved head.
Anyway... I would also like to inform the group that my own instrument
construction project is drawing to a close. It's taken over two years, as
well as massive parts and assistance from the Hackmanns, but now my pathetic
Musicmaker's kit should finally be completed in all its array of glorious
improvements! (Hopefully it will function.) Expect a birth announcement
before the end of January. Then I'll have to wrestle with actually learning
how to play it!
And here's my tuppenceworth (as they'd say in Mary Poppins) on HG cost: In
my case, I spent only about $1000 to build this thing, but I already had a
craftsman's tools and experience in my father, and Alden probably lost money
selling me those parts. Like many of you, I personally enjoy the fact that
hardly anyone (especially in the US) plays HG, and some a high cost is
literally the price you pay for such uniqueness. Hopefully I can acquire a
professional one someday. As long as the one I'm making works, though, the
bother of building is enjoyable in and of itself!
Catch you all later... Sincerely,
Nathan Roy
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Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 00:23:15 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Allan Janus
I have the Robert Green CD - for the list's listening pleasure I've
uploaded Dupuits "La Guerrière" in Realaudio format:
http://janusmuseum.org/audio/guerriere.ram
Allan Janus
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Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 00:44:28 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Jake said:
>I don't doubt that thia instrument ia of very good quality but, if I'm
>correct, it is very limited in what it can do. I know I'm opening up
>myself for bombardment, but a diatonic instrument (to me, at least) is
>very limited in what it can do and what it can be used for.
The standard Minstrel is chromatic, and for just a little more money we
provide the full 2-octave keyboard (13 lower keys, 10 upper keys, just like
the larger instruments.) The scale length is the same as our other
instruments and those of most other makers, 344 mm, so there's no problem
in moving to a larger instrument and having to relearn the key
relationships.
We offer the Symphonie as a diatonic model, but so far everyone has ordered
it with chromatic keys.
The Minstrel has the trompette, a lower drone, and a chromatic
keybox. They're also very stable, much less finicky than the larger
instruments. What more does one really need to learn to play? ;-)
Alden
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Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:04:18 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Bob said:
>Ahhhh! Just as I suspected. It is NOT metaphysical in nature. There
>is a mechanical thing happening here. the legs/feet that the chien
>bridge has under it (never to be seen in photos of Hg's) jump up and
>down excitedly on the soundboard at or near the tail piece when the
>coup is performed.
Not quite.
This is my understanding of How the Chien Works.
The chien is composed of (among other things) the front foot, the head, the
back feet, and the tail. The tail is what fits in the little slot in the
mouche bridge, so it's out of sight in the photographs. The back feet rest
against the junction between the soundboard and the mouche bridge. The
head has the little slot in it that the string rests in. The front foot
rests on the soundboard, below the head.
When the wheel is moving fast enough (whether quickly accelerated, in a
short coup, or rotated quickly in the coup gras) the friction of the rosin
on the wheel is sufficient to lift the trompette string up. This lifts the
chien head and front foot up, pivoting on the back feet, so that the front
foot is lifted off the soundboard. At some point the string reaches its
limit of stretching upwards out of shape, and the string tension
temporarily overcomes the force of friction of the rosin on the wheel. When
the string slips down along the wheel, the chien goes back down, and the
front foot hits the soundboard. Tap. The lifting and falling steps are
repeated as long as the wheel is moved quickly enough, producing a
tap-tap-tap-tap sound. We perceive this as a buzzing sound, because it's
happening too fast to hear the individual impacts.
We've studied this phenomenon with frequency spectrum analysis, and some of
the results gave an indication of what the frequency of tapping is, but so
far we haven't really been able to see it clearly. A really fast video or
movie camera could do it, but we don't have access to one yet. (I keep
hoping that some physics or engineering student in need of a master's
thesis project will get interested in the HG, and offer to study how the
chien really works, but no takers so far...)
Alden
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:40:09 -0000
From: frank vickers <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Hi
I believe that some of Dr Daniel Wolverson's physics students at Bath
University are studying the chien and (knowing Daniel) will probably be
measuring the very stuff you're talking about. I'll try to find out a bit
more from him.
Frank
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Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:26:10 +0100
From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de>
Subject: [HG] First Questions
Hi everyone,
I'm new to the list.
I want to learn to play hg. But first, I think, I have to buy an instrument.
I did find out a lot about the hg from books and from the internet, but
there are still some questions I have:
First, there are very different instruments available and sometimes it seems
to me, that every instrument should be individually made for its player. But
then there are there typical ones (I think) with two melody strings, one
trumpet string, three drone strings and several resonating strings, say
four.
On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3 trumpet strings, 6
drones and 12 resonating strings.
What is the difference in sound and play?
Or, what else is the difference?
I came to like the sound of the hg from the CD of Aligot Elements.
Unfortunately the sound on the CD is not typical I think.
Is it the instrument or the mixing technique that makes that sound?
Or is the sound of some French instruments very different from others?
How important for you is it to play the instrument before buying it.
Is it ok to buy a used one?
What can go wrong?
Are the mechanics so different that you have to try? (Anyway, I wouldn't
know how it should feel)
Is the sound so different that you have to hear?
Guido
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 11:27:15 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
A further thought.
When the chien starts its buzz, the foot lifts off the soundboard. The
resulting change of angle of the chien increases the pressure of the
trompette string on the wheel.
This would explain why on a well set up instrument, once the initial coup
has been made, a continuous buzz can be played with virtually no increase in
wheel speed.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:26:59 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
In a message dated 12/8/01 3:45:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hurdy _at_ silverlink.net writes:
We offer the Symphonie as a diatonic model, but so far
everyone has ordered
it with chromatic keys.
I apologize. I thought the Symphonie was only diatonic.
Jake: happily awaiting the birth of his "baby" gurdy.
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 00:44:50 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Ebay Listing
Nathan said:
>I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that there's an HG for sale on
>Ebay. Its item number is 1494038793. Looks like a real beauty - the
>description says it was built about 1850 by Colson a Mirecourt. I like the
>arrogant French scowl on the carved head.
I've seen this one come up for sale there before. I don't think it sold,
but the bids got up to $2500 or so, if I remember.
Many of the Mirecourt instruments have really nice heads. We've started to
make castings of them, so that we have a 3-dimensional record as well as
photographs.
We're working on restoring a Colson luteback right now, which is in better
shape than the one on eBay.
If anyone on the list is serious about bidding on this instrument, please
talk to us so you have an idea of what is involved in getting it
playable. Mirecourt-made lutebacks are fairly rare, and can be quite nice,
and this might be just the instrument for you, but the expenses of moving
it from cool antique to cool playable antique can be quite substantial.
Alden
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:01:00 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Dear Guido,
Welcome to the HG list. I hope I can address some of your questions.
>First, there are very different instruments available and sometimes it seems
>to me, that every instrument should be individually made for its player. But
>then there are there typical ones (I think) with two melody strings, one
>trumpet string, three drone strings and several resonating strings, say
>four.
>On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3 trumpet strings, 6
>drones and 12 resonating strings.
>What is the difference in sound and play?
>Or, what else is the difference?
>I came to like the sound of the hg from the CD of Aligot Elements.
>Unfortunately the sound on the CD is not typical I think.
>Is it the instrument or the mixing technique that makes that sound?
>Or is the sound of some French instruments very different from others?
I don't know this recording. Can you describe the sound, or other
recordings you've heard with a similar sound? Who is the player?
Similar instruments by different makers can sound very different.
Similar instruments by the same maker can sound very different.
The same instrument set up by two players can sound very different.
The same instrument played by two players without any adjustment can sound
very different.
Recordings of the same instrument with the same player can sound very
different, dependant on micing technique, microphones, studio acoustics,
mixing, post-production processing, etc.
You get the idea. There are a lot of variables.
>How important for you is it to play the instrument before buying it.
>Is it ok to buy a used one?
>What can go wrong?
>Are the mechanics so different that you have to try? (Anyway, I wouldn't
>know how it should feel)
The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test
the instrument for you.
I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping
lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea
culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost?
>Is the sound so different that you have to hear?
Definitely, but the sound can change a lot with setup. An instrument that
hasn't been well maintained will sound really awful, and you'll say to
yourself, "I really don't want to buy that piece of junk." In fact it may
not be a piece of junk, but a beautiful instrument owned by a person who
doesn't know how to play or maintain it. On the other hand it may be a
piece of junk. An experienced player will be able to tell, or to play with
it to find out. Since you don't play yet, you still need to learn how to
do this.
Bon chance!
Alden
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 01:06:32 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Neil says:
>When the chien starts its buzz, the foot lifts off the soundboard. The
>resulting change of angle of the chien increases the pressure of the
>trompette string on the wheel.
Then how is the buzzing sound produced? The front foot has to contact the
soundboard to make a sound, n'est ce pas? Then the chien is back where it
was before: on the soundboard.
Alden
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:11:26 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Hi Alden
You described the physical happenings of the trumpet very clearly!!
I also compare it with an electic doorbell in a way as you have the magnent and
the electric disconnection on off on off.........
When you talked about frequencies I rememberd a curious thing years ago:
At the time when we recorded LPs on casettes you had to take out the dolby when
you recorded hg-music, because the trumpet wasn't to hear good, that means there
is something sounding around 12 000 waves per second, I also have realized with
pick up systems that the average voltage on a piezo is around 50 to 100 mV, when
buzzing it can go up to 700 mV. My Gallien Krueger acoustic amp turned down the
volume with the limiter, so this amp was not good for hg, especially with my
spially designend preamps.
What are your experiences??
Greetings and a SLOW X-mas to you all on the list
Helmut
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:28:11 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
I agree with all of Alden's theory of bowing, my point is that once the foot
of the chien tilts, the string is momentarily brought into closer contact
with the wheel as opposed to normal bowing where the pressure remains the
same. This effect will draw the string further round the circumference of
the wheel effectively bowing the string harder. The string then slips
allowing the foot to strike the soundboard .
As to the frequency of tapping, I would have thought it to be the frequency
of the string pitch.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:43:34 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Looking for hurdy gurdy teacher in or near New Jersey
I would like to contact someone in New Jersey or Eastern Pennsylvania or
the New York City area willing to give me some basic lessons on playing a
hurdy gurdy.
Are there any instructional videos or audio courses?
All this talk of relative costs (that I started anyway) becomes moot when
you've been informed that your very own hurdy gurdy is being built.
This will be a very Happy Christmas for me. As I said before no one
instrument can get as much passion connected to it as a hurdy gurdy. I
am glad to finally join the community. Many thanks to Jake Walton and
Donald Heller for getting me interested in the hurdy gurdy.
Jake Conte
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:44:03 +0100
From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
> I don't know this recording. Can you describe the sound, or other
> recordings you've heard with a similar sound? Who is the player?
The player of Aligot Eléments is Sylvie Mathé.
I'll try to describe the sound. It's very soft. When you don't listen close
to it, it sounds like bagpipes or schalmei maybe even like an oboe. It lacks
the sharp formants what makes it soft. I would call the very few hg sounds
I've heard a bit sturdy. In comparison this one I would call sweet.
Hm, it's difficlut to describe sounds in words :)
> The same instrument set up by two players can sound very different.
I would think it would make a softer sound when the melody strings are not
tuned too exact?
Is it possible to adjust the volume of the trumpet or the drones?
> The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test
> the instrument for you.
Does somebody know a hurdy-gurdy player in northern Germany?
> I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping
> lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea
> culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost?
That would be nice.
Sounds like a lot of driving before buying :)
Guido
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:18:21 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From the Listmaster: Temporary loss of email lists and website
Dear list subscriber,
We have just been informed that our webhosting service provider is going
out of business, and we will lose our websites and email lists as of
midnight tonight.
We are working to restore these services to you. It's possible that we'll
be able to recreate the list without any hassle, and you'll barely notice
any change except for a new welcome letter. It is possible that we will be
unable to recreate the list as it was before. In that event, we will email
you about how to subscribe to the new list wherever it is.
Please accept our apologies for this inconvenience. We hope to have it all
resolved soon.
Alden the Listmaster
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:05:52 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press
>Robert A Green CD 18th Century French Music For Hurdy Gurdy
If you have Robert Green's CD, or even if you haven't, you should listen
instead to the master of the Baroque hurdy-gurdy himself, list member
Marcello Bono.
Dr. Green plays the notes that are on the page, and Marcello plays the
music. 'nuf said.
Marcello has a fabulous CD, "Back to Bono", but I don't know how
commercially available it is. Marcello?
Alden
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:42:24 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Dale. I have an idea. Surely you know someone who has a wreck of a boat
parked on a trailer somewhere. We could paint it to look like a lute-back,
attach a paper mache crank to the back and a paper mache head to the prow
and haul it in a parade. At leas that way it would once afain fe afloat.
:-)
Joan
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:46:18 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
That settles it. I am going to get my time lapse VCR out and aim it at the
chien and then I am going to play away and see what it all looks like on
freeze frame and slo-mo. Hummmm. Wasn't there a Hydroplane called Slo Mo.
Trish. If you are reading this, that would make a good name for our
beginners group.
Joan
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:02:33 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press
Alden,
Don't you think Marcello needs to make sure his American friends
have a way to purchase his CD???
:-)
Judith
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:14:18 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] I got mine from IU press
How do I (we) contact IU press??
Thanks, Diana
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:24:07 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] I got mine from IU press
We're working on that ;-)
>Don't you think Marcello needs to make sure his American friends
>have a way to purchase his CD???
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:50:31 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hello,
DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com:
>I'm not questioning the cost of a hurdy gurdy (as I have one on order). I
>was questioning the use of the term "relative." Those of us who live in the
>real world, the cost of a good quality hurdy gurdy is very expensive compared
>to the instruments we play every day. I play acoustic and electric guitars,
>mandolin, electric 5-string bass, bowed psaltery, tenor and 6-string banjo
>and a variety of keyboards and synthesizers and none approach the cost of a
>hurdy gurdy.
I live in the real world too. I think you are not aware of the prices of
music instruments in general, you only know about instruments usually
sold in music stores. Most music stores sell an assortment of the fifty
cheapest popular instruments, maybe two or three popular brands of each.
Try to by anything less popular than school violin, banjo, guitar and
keyboard and you will find that instruments are not supermarket sellers.
I would say you play "relative" cheap intruments:
electric guitars, mandolin, electric bass, banjo keyboards and
synthesizers are
1)
factotry made mass products, and
2)
for fair price comparison please include your costs for amplifying and
mixing equipment and the cables, the software etc. within the price of
your electric guitars, electric bass, keyboards and synthesizers. Now
you will see that they are not *that* cheap.
there are makers where you can get a "relative" good student hurdy gurdy
(an instrument that I as a professional hurdy gurdy player and teacher
can recomend) for less than 1.200 USD.
My cousin just recently bought a "relative" good student bassoon for
less than 4000 USD. His parents nearly jumped around because they were
so happy about the price.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:10:00 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Hello,
Guido tum Suden:
> > The best thing to do is to get to know a hurdy-gurdy player who can test
> > the instrument for you.
>
> Does somebody know a hurdy-gurdy player in northern Germany?
I am not from northern germany but I am in Kiel about every other month
for some days (next time from 23Jan02 on).
If you send me geographical details (off list?) I can supply you with
addresses of HG players in your neighbourhood, I have about 500
addresses of players in germany.
> > I think that Anna Peekstok and Simon Wascher both posted good "shopping
> > lists" in the last year, and they're not posted in the archives yet (mea
> > culpa....). Does anyone have these available to send to Guido, or to repost?
Its pitty that I do not have this posting myself.
> Sounds like a lot of driving before buying :)
better driving *before* buying. It is easy to spend 1500 Euro without
gaining a playable instrument.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:25:38 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
Hello,
nice to see another Austrian added to this list, wellcome. Is it you
that plays hurdy gurdy on some recording I heard at a friends ?
Alexander Engel:
(...)
> PS. I am a silent reader of the list for a short time, i will start a
> workshop of different string instrument but I am still in the period of
> experiment and completing the workshop.
Do you plan to build hurdy gurdies too ?
hope to hear from you,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:15:39 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
In a message dated 12/9/01 3:42:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net writes:
Surely you know someone who has a wreck of a boat
parked on a trailer somewhere. We could paint it to look
like a lute-back,
attach a paper mache crank to the back and a paper mache head
to the prow
and haul it in a parade. At least that way it would once
again be afloat.
Do they let you out at night, Joan? You obviously have way too much
free time or they need to increase the medication :-)
Jake
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:34:01 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Hi Helmut,
some years ago I tried Gallien Krüger for my HG, because many people said
it`s a very fine amplyfier. But it sounded awful with my Siorat. Especially
the trumpet. Any bass amplyfier is better. At the moment I use AER acoustic
amplifiers. But I think you know them.
greetings
Petra
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:48:56 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hi Simon,
you`re very right!!!!
If you think about soprano recorders:
- you can buy one for 10 USD (factory mass ware). But it wouldn`t sound
nice. Maybe it wouldn`t even be playable.
- you can buy one for 150 USD. Also factory mass ware, but playable and good
for students.
- you can buy one for 1200 USD. Hand made. That`s an instrument for solists,
with a variety of technical possibilities and musical expression.
Today we played a concert. Afterwards some usual people were asking for the
price of HGs. They were astonished how cheap they are.
greetings
Petra
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:54:33 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] First Questions
Hello,
have a look on the webpage: www.bordun.de. You`ll find a list of builders
and some more informations around the HG, equipment, workshops,
concerts,...you can also post questions, send informations,....
I could also tell you some adresses of HG players in Northern Germany. Just
contact me off the list.
By the way Volker Heidemann lives in Northern Germany since about one year.
greetings
Petra
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:55:16 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
He he he he he he he!!! Right. Everyone says that about me. I was
thinking the boat haulers haulers could all be dressed as little gurdies
and Alden could stand in the front of the boat at the helm dressed as a
maestro with a whip he cracked over the haulers and he could cry
out......
"On Minstrel, on on Lutey, on Breton and Boshy
On Guitar, organistrum, on Symphy and Volksy.
To the end of the the system
To the repeat we play
Then back to first measure
At the fine you'll stay.
Yes, Jake, "Certifiable" Tee hee. Joan
----- Original Message -----
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:59:03 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
Hey. I know a lot about dogs and they are guaranteed to bark if something
buzzes in their ears. The only thing that keeps them in check in this case
is the fact the string is C or D. If it were a Bee string they'd go nuts
and there would be no controling them.
Joan
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:42:33 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: AW: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
In a message dated 12/9/01 7:49:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de writes:
I would say you play "relative" cheap intruments:
electric guitars, mandolin, electric bass, banjo keyboards
and
synthesizers are
1)
factotry made mass products, and
2)
for fair price comparison please include your costs for
amplifying and
mixing equipment and the cables, the software etc. within
the price of
your electric guitars, electric bass, keyboards and
synthesizers. Now
you will see that they are not *that* cheap.
Depending on your situation, a decent amplifier can cost around US $500.
These instruments are only cheap in comparison to the price of what you
consider "relative." While I agree a great deal of work and love goes
into making a hurdy hurdy and any other custom-made instrument, an
electric guitar (Fender Strat, Gibson Les Paul, for example) selling for
around $1,500 is anything but cheap. These are considered some of the
best instruments in their type -- and yes, I realize, they are mass
produced.
Jake Conte
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:50:23 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
And Joan responded:
He he he he he he he!!! Right. Everyone says that about
me.
Yes, Jake, "Certifiable" Tee hee. Joan
I'm glad you have a sense of humour. If I said the same thing on another
list that I'm on, they would have tar-and feathered and pilloried me :-)
Jake
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:07:57 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] How to distribute "underground"-music globally?
In a message dated 11/18/01 6:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi writes:
The problem is the reliable and just method for payment &
delivery of cd.
Of course I would like to trust everybody and simply send cd
and ask the
customer to send me the payment in cash when he/she has got
the cd, but
maybe the world does not work that way anymore...
Any ideas?
Hi Esa,
Our band has its CD on wwwCDstreet.com. You have to register and then
you can set up a basic web page and they accept credit card purchases.
As artists you will find a great deal of work in taking orders and
shipping them all over the world. CDstreet.com accepts credit card
purchases and, I believe, they keep 20% of each sale. That's not bad
considering they are the ones taking the orders and sending them out.
Good luck with your band.
Jake Conte
New Jersey USA
__
Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep
English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive styl
Order Castle Keep CDs online at: www.cdstreet.com/artists/castlekeep
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:32:22 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Dear Jake,
Now that you are to be a proud hurdy-gurdy owner you need to know that a
sense of humor is absolutely essential. :-) When you play hurdy-gurdy you
either laugh or you cry and since I french polish these instruments you
better not be crying on the finish.
:-)----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:13:13 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] "master of baroque" ?!?
--- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
wrote: >
>
> >Robert A Grele I'm playing)
and don't call me "master"
That's all....
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:26:47 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Hi Guido
Welcome to the list
> First, there are very different instruments
> available and sometimes it seems
> to me, that every instrument should be individually
> made for its player. But
> then there are there typical ones (I think) with two
> melody strings, one
> trumpet string, three drone strings and several
> resonating strings, say
> four.
> On the internet I saw a hg with 4 melody strings, 3
> trumpet strings, 6
> drones and 12 resonating strings.
> What is the difference in sound and play?
> Or, what else is the difference?
In my opinion the difference is the same as between a
bicycle and a Harley Davidson.....they both got two
wheels....period.
Harley Davidson is faster and confortable but if you
are a "cyclist" you'd rather have a nice Bianchi.
(may God protect me from other list members' comment).
> How important for you is it to play the instrument
> before buying it.
It's a MUST
Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not
a player (or without a friend that really is).
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:47:03 +0100
From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
> Harley Davidson is faster and confortable but if you
> are a "cyclist" you'd rather have a nice Bianchi.
I see what you mean.
But what are the sound differences (I'm talking of hurdy-gurdies now, not
bikes ;)?
Can I compare it with the number of strings in an orchestra?
BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the hurdy-gurdy of somebody
else or are different instruments too individual?
>> How important for you is it to play the instrument
>> before buying it.
>
> It's a MUST
> Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not
> a player (or without a friend that really is).
That makes clear what to do next :)
Guido
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:05:12 +0100
From: Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] where does the sound of the chien (trompette) come from?
I think there is an additional mechanism. The turning of the wheel lifts
the string together with the chien off the soundboard. You have the same
effekt if you lift the trompette string a little bit with the finger
before the chien while turning the wheel. If you turn the wheel in the
other direction the trompette does not work.
Jens
--
=======================================================
Jens Walter ZFS - Zentrum Fertigungstechnik Stuttgart
Dipl.-Phys. Nobelstr. 15, D-70569 Stuttgart, Germany
email: jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de
phone: ++49(0)711/131 62-29
fax: ++49(0)711/131 62-11
http://www.zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de
=======================================================
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:22:36 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
Hi Guido
> But what are the sound differences (I'm talking of
> hurdy-gurdies now, not
> bikes ;)?
> Can I compare it with the number of strings in an
> orchestra?
Not exactly....I can try to explain this way: a "basic
hurdy-gurdy" (the bicycle...:o) has got some
"limitations" that "modern gurdies" haven't, for
exemple you can't change the key you're playing with
WHILE you're playing, or you can't have different
tuning (or "sound") in the same instrument, or else a
wider range of the keyboard and so on.
In other words: if you like the "classic" hurdy-gurdy
repertory (that's to say traditional dance music,
baroque music and so on) you don't really need
anything more than a "classic" gurdy.
If you are an open minded player that likes "other"
music, you'll need "other" gurdies.
Of course different number of strings and different
mixture and balancing between strings drive to
different sound.
Remember: this is just my own opinion, but if you are
a beginner FORGET anything more than a "classic" 6
strings gurdy for a while.
> BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the
> hurdy-gurdy of somebody
> else or are different instruments too individual?
Yes, it is possible, but I'd never play a concert
using someone else gurdy....
Try to imagine the relationship between a hautbois
player and his own reed (or again...between a cyclist
and his own bicycle... :o)
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:33:08 +0100
From: Stefan Neumeier <Neumeier _at_ landentwicklung-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
But what are the sound differences
Basically I would say the sound diffrences depend on the kind of Hurdy
Gurdy. A Hungarian HG will sound a little bit different than a French one
and a Symphonia and so on (not talking about the different tuning
possibilities).
Ok now there is also the aspect of how the HG is constructed and which
luthier it comes from. As I already mentioned some time ago I think that
nobody else than yourself can decide if you like the sound or trust the
luthier (every player has its own opinion due to this aspects). But there
are some basic facts that you should consider buying a HG.
I would recommend not to buy one of those too cheap instrumensts (ok they
can sound quite well if they are adjusted right, but for a beginner it
can be a frustrating experience until you get the thing to work
properly). As for questions to quality aspects there is a good article on
the hurdygurdy.com pages.
BTW is it normally possible for a player to play the hurdy-gurdy of
somebody
else or are different instruments too individual?
Yes of course it is possible (as far as I know only the hungarian style
instruments have some different key spacings etc.)
--
diese Nachricht wurde Ihnen gesendet von/message sent by:
Dipl. Geogr. Stefan Neumeier
Technische Universität München
Institut für Geodäsie, GIS und Landmanagement/
Lehrstuhl für Bodenordnung und Landentwicklung;
Department of Geodesy, GIS and Landmanagement/
Chair of Land Readjustment and Land Development;
Arcisstr. 21
D-80290 München
Deutschland/Germany/R.F.A.
Tel. ++/49/(0)89/289-22518
Fax. ++/49/(0)89/289-23933
http://www.landentwicklung-muenchen.de
Neumeier _at_ landentwicklung-muenchen.de
privat:
Parkstraße 19 B
82065 Baierbrunn
Tel.: ++/49/(0)89/7932205
Fax.: ++/49/(0)89/7932205
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:10:46 -0800
From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Ah, just for clarification, the Olympic Musical Instrument's Minstrel
Hurdy-gurdy is NOT a diatonic instrument. It is a chromatic three string
instrument with a chien. It is a VERY fine instrument at an incredibly
low cost that most people can afford. Many players buy one as a second
instrument because it is very compact, easy to travel with, sounds great
and is extremely stable in just about any climate. I have serial number
004, so have had mine for some time. Yes, it is limited in that you have
only 3 strings, but I have found that when needed I can retune my trompet
and it will remain stable.
Katie Roe
My soul can find no staircase to heaven unless
it be through Earth's loveliness.
-Michelangelo
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:17:57 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
On 12/10/01 12:26 AM, marcello bono wrote:
> Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're not
> a player (or without a friend that really is).
Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of playing an instrument or
getting advice from a "real" player before buying one, especially in the
U.S. where HG players can be *very* few and far between. I think one of the
reasons this list exists is to try to help fill that gap for people.
That said, I will repost my message from February 22 detailing what I
recommend looking for in a HG.
Anna Peekstok
(who bought her gurdy sight unseen in 1985 and luckily has never regretted
it)
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:18:54 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: [HG] Repost from Feb. 22, 2001: Buying a HG
On 2/22/01 3:43 AM, michael.i.ross _at_ bt.com wrote:
> Being a first time buyer, what should I
> look for?
1. Take off the wheel cover if there is one and look at the wheel. The
playing surface should look smooth and clean, with no gouges, scratches,
bumps, or pits.
2. Take all the strings off the wheel (they should all have bridge slots or
pegs to prevent them from touching the wheel). Turn the crank while watching
the wheel from above the HG looking down. The wheel should not wobble from
side to side.
3. Set the instrument on a table, near the edge so you can turn the crank.
Crouch or sit behind the crank so your eyes are level with the HG
soundboard. Turn the crank and watch the wheel. It should turn smoothly with
no higher or lower areas as it goes around.
4. While turning the crank with no strings on the wheel, listen and feel for
any hitch or clunking in the motion. The crank/wheel/shaft should not have
much play in any direction; turning it should be the only motion you can
easily make with it.
5. Look inside the keybox. Are all the tangents present and accounted for?
You should probably also find out how easy each one of those puppies is to
tune; a stuck tangent is a pain in the butt. You can fix it, but you should
know about it before buying the instrument.
6. With the strings still off the wheel, strap the HG on in correct playing
position, tilted a bit so the keys/tangents will all drop down off the
strings (open the keybox to check). Close the keybox and put your left hand
on its lid, bending your fingers down to depress the keys. Push each key in
and then let go. The keys should move in smoothly and drop smoothly and
quickly back to the original position without excess play or rattle against
the hole in the keybox. Sticky keys can be fixed, but again it's better to
know about them before buying the instrument.
7. The chanter strings inside the keybox should pass over a moveable nut at
the far end of the keybox (between the tangents and the tuning pegs). Can
you move the nut? (Try moving it VERY slightly; the position of this nut is
crucial to getting the instrument in tune.)
8. Can you or the seller get the instrument to play in tune? Is the tone
smooth and pleasant? Does the dog work?
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:53:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
--- Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de> wrote:
> I'll try to describe the sound. It's very soft....
> It lacks
> the sharp formants what makes it soft....this one I
> would call sweet....
> I would think it would make a softer sound when the
> melody strings are not
> tuned too exact?
I have noticed when I tuned strings down a full tone
(to play with a Paraguayan Harp tuned to F) that the
instrument is not as responsive and lacks clarity, but
the sound is sweeter. So that may be whats hapening on
that recording. ...Incidently, it turned out that the
tunes that worked with drones wanted the C, to I tuned
back up and proceeded normally. Those Paraguyan Harps
are LOUD!!!
> Is it possible to adjust the volume of the trumpet
> or the drones?
I'd think it woud be a permanent adjustment. You might
have better luck with an electric and tweak the volume
knobs as needed.
Hope that Helps.
Roy Trotter (Springtown Tx, USA)
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:26:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] "master of baroque" ?!?
--- marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> wrote:
> and don't call me "master" .
Ok, how about "Sensei" ;-)
Later,
Roy Trotter
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:13:28 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] bugs
We interrupt your regularly-scheduled broadcast at this time to bring this
news flash:
man in the northeast, reportedly suffering from a mid-life crisis which then
lead
to a strange, feverish interest in the hurdy gurdy, has succumbed to a mild
attack of
the melancholy. Friends and family are showing support as he attempts to
recover. The cause was reported to be a virus. Grotesquely referred to as a
worm, it apparently took over and in robot-like fashion, and directed random
e
mails that were damaging and nonsensical, sent to innocent parties, many of
whom
were players of this instrument called the hurdy gurdy. Donations can be
given
in the form of forgiveness by anyone was affected. We now return you to your
regular programming already in progress.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:41:19 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
Hello everyone,
I noticed that there is a nice looking Hurdy Gurdy for
sale at Elderly Music in Lansing, Michigan USA. It is
a beautiful and unusual gamba shaped instrument made
in the 1990's in Austria by Stefan Weiss. The price
is $2900. Visit the link below to read about it and
see several photos.
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/200U-242.htm
Enjoy,
David Smith
Dearborn, Michigan USA
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:49:37 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
David, how is your new gurdy coming? Are you
finished with the restoration? What are the
results?
Judith
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:02:38 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
Hello,
David Smith:
> Hello everyone,
> I noticed that there is a nice looking Hurdy Gurdy for
> sale at Elderly Music in Lansing, Michigan USA. It is
> a beautiful and unusual gamba shaped instrument made
> in the 1990's in Austria by Stefan Weiss. The price
> is $2900. Visit the link below to read about it and
> see several photos.
> http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/200U-242.htm
I know the maker of the instrument, he makes very nice looking
instruments, hurdy gurdies, bagpipes, violins, viola da gambas and
others. He is a carpenter specialiced on restoration and reconstruction
of old furniture and passionate musican playing button accordeon, hurdy
gurdy and other instruments.
2900 USD are are more than the original price of the instrument I
suppose, maybe due to changing currency exchange rates since the buy.
The instrument is very beautyfull and would fit nicely in every music
instruments collection, but is rather not a first instrument or an
instrument to play it all the time.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:11:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, [iso-8859-1] marcello bono wrote:
Marcello,
You probably know this already, but do take a look with Naoki Ueo's list
on musettedecour.com
http://homepage.mac.com/muzette/Rep_list/Musette_Repertory_frame.html
Ciao
--
Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com
--
Flow my tears, fall from your springs,
Exiled forever: Let me mourn
where night's black bird her sad infamy sings,
there let me live forlorn. --John Dowland (2nd book of Songs or Ayres, 1600)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:00:20 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
In a message dated 12/10/01 11:25:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com writes:
Ah, just for clarification, the Olympic Musical Instrument's
Minstrel Hurdy-gurdy is NOT a diatonic instrument. It is a
chromatic three string instrument with a chien. It is a VERY
fine instrument at an incredibly low cost that most people
can afford. Many players buy one as a second instrument
because it is very compact, easy to travel with, sounds great
and is extremely stable in just about any climate
I assumed it was diatonic. Alden has already corrected me. I believe
Alden said it comes as diatonic, but can be ordered as chromatic.
Eventually, I may buy one as a second instrument as well.
Jake Conte
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:36:59 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hurdy gurdy
Hi all,
Not to belabor this point, but all of our instruments are chromatic unless
you specially order it as a diatonic instrument. Unless you have a need
for a special interest instrument that is diatonic, chromatic is a much
more versatile choice.
:-)-----Cali Hackmann
Olympic Musical Instruments
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:34:15 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
While talking with co-workers this afternoon I asked if their children
were still pursuing learning to play their musical instruments. One's
son was learning alto saxophone; the other's daughter was learning
guitar. Both said "no." This made me realize exactly what I meant
about hurdy gurdies being expensive.
For most mainstream instruments, there are student models available as
beginner instruments to learn on. They are very inexpensive and if the
person decides to not pursue it they are only out a minimum investment or
they can switch to another beginner instrument.
Whereas a good quality hurdy gurdy is, to some of us, a major investment.
That's the point I was trying to make (which I couldn't translate
properly in my posts). When I decided I wanted to get a hurdy gurdy I
made this decision based on a love of and for the instrument without ever
having actually held one or played one. My decision was purely
emotional. That's what I meant about people having a great deal of
passion for the hurdy gurdy.
I should have my very own hg shortly and I will do my best to make people
aware of the instrument in my area.
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:08:57 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list
--- Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Marcello,
>
> You probably know this already, but do take a look
> with Naoki Ueo's list
> on musettedecour.com
>
>
http://homepage.mac.com/muzette/Rep_list/Musette_Repertory_frame.html
No, I didn't...great page!
Thanks a lot for the info
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:36:49 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
--- Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> ha scritto:
> On 12/10/01 12:26 AM, marcello bono wrote:
>
> > Don't you even dare to buy a hurdy-gurdy if you're
> not
> > a player (or without a friend that really is).
>
> Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of
> playing an instrument or
> getting advice from a "real" player before buying
> one, especially in the
> U.S. where HG players can be *very* few and far
> between.
I see, when I started to play hurdy-gurdy, in Rome,
more than 20 years ago, I was the only "player" in 300
miles.....
> I think one of the
> reasons this list exists is to try to help fill that
> gap for people.
That's why I answered that way (probably I forgot to
put a smile at the end and my message sounded too
"rude")....but he asked for a suggestion and I gave
him mine :o)
> (who bought her gurdy sight unseen in 1985 and
> luckily has never regretted
> it)
During the latest 10-15 years I met more than 40 - 50
sad people (just in Italy...) with "bargain less than
1000 USD gurdy" or unable to even tune a "good"
instrument, and all those people should have been
happy to follow my suggestion.
Statistics is on my side :o)
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:19:54 +0100
From: Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
Interesting, if you look at the bridge, it seems to be made for 3 melody
strings and there are also additional holes on some of the tangents, but
obviously (from the other photos) only 2 strings can be fitted. Can
somone explain that??
Jens
> > in the 1990ter ZFS - Zentrum Fertigungstechnik Stuttgart
Dipl.-Phys. Nobelstr. 15, D-70569 Stuttgart, Germany
email: jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de
phone: ++49(0)711/131 62-29
fax: ++49(0)711/131 62-11
http://www.zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de
=======================================================
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:30:58 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
--- Jens Walter <jwalter _at_ zfs.tz.uni-stuttgart.de> ha
scritto: >
Interesting, if you look at the bridge, it seems to
> be made for 3 melody
> strings and there are also additional holes on some
> of the tangents, but
> obviously (from the other photos) only 2 strings can
> be fitted.
Not only: there are also two pegs for trompette's
regulation but just one trompette string....
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
__________________________________________
Iscriviti al Meglio della Settimana, la newsletter di Yahoo!
Per saperne di più vai alla pagina: http://buongiorno.yahoo.it
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:20:56 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
Hello,
DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com:
> (...)
> For most mainstream instruments, there are student models available as
> beginner instruments to learn on. They are very inexpensive and if the
> person decides to not pursue it they are only out a minimum investment or
> they can switch to another beginner instrument.
To my observation, its *not* so much the price of student instruments
that is that different, exept for real factory stuff: recomendable
student hurdy gurdys for about 1250 Euro do exist (also wrecks for 3000
Euro ) and are available within the time it needs to organize payment
and shipping.
The main difference is that with popular beginners instruments it is
easily possible to borrow or rent an instrument, or chances are high
that they are already owned in the family.
And this is related with the problem that hurdy gurdy teachers are
seldom: Music teachers usually lend instruments to students, as I do
with my hurdy gurdies, for about 29 Euro per month.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:24:38 +0100
From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: [HG] (geen onderwerp)
Hello list,
If somebody is interested in a HG :I want to exchange one for a
bagpipe,preferebly not a Scottish one. You can mail me at
Reymen _at_ pandora.be
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:02:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
To: "hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com" <hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] (geen onderwerp)
Reymen V wrote:
> If somebody is interested in a HG :I want to exchange one for a
> bagpipe,preferebly not a Scottish one.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire... ;-)
Alden
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:12:44 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] First Questions
On 12/10/01 11:36 PM, marcello bono wrote:
> During the latest 10-15 years I met more than 40 - 50
> sad people (just in Italy...) with "bargain less than
> 1000 USD gurdy" or unable to even tune a "good"
> instrument, and all those people should have been
> happy to follow my suggestion.
> Statistics is on my side :o)
Yes, I've seen the same thing here in the United States. I'm not arguing
against your point -- I agree that getting input from (at least one)
knowledgeable player is by far the best way to go about buying one's first
hurdy-gurdy. However, this is just not practical for some people, and I
believe we can prevent some of those disastrous purchases by providing
information on this list about what to look for and what to avoid.
Your way is definitely best, but written advice is probably better than
nothing.
Cheers,
Anna
+ + + + + + +
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:06:13 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
Hi Jake. Passion, verve, esprit de corps (sp), all this is the mark of
the HG players I know. Other words like lunatics also come to mind.
:-) I am glad to hear you will soon join the ranks of those of us who
crank away. As soon as you get yours you will find out that even when
you can't play a single tune it is so very satisfying to hug the gurdy
baby close and crank away. I think it is the effect of the drone on the
shakras. If I need to relax, I just grab my HG and turn, turn , turn.
When learning a new tune I often (always) get flustered and lose
patience. I just take off the melody string and drone. Instant bliss.
Hey, where do you live and who is making your HG. You may discover
another Gurdy player just down your lane. :-) Joan in Seattle
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:16:28 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] 18th century HG music list
Vincent. Thanks. Great site. Joan
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:53:08 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
Hi Jake,
I do agree with you. I have been purely voyeuristic on this list since I
introduced myself last spring, and I too am awaiting an instrument that I
am passionate about and have never actually held. I am lucky in that I am
buying a friend's first hurdy gurdy from her when her new Chris Eaton model
is completed and she is very kindly selling it for much less than it's
worth. However, I have constant pangs of guilt over taking food out of my
children's mouth (maybe a little overly-dramatic), when I already own
double bass (again a relatively expensive instrument) that I don't play
nearly enough these days.
And then the fear, what if I can't/don't play it?!?!
But I am really hoping the passion and intrigue of the instrument will push
me through the learning curve.
I thought everbody's comments on this subject have been great and have
strengthened my resolve. Of course, you will all be there as my on-line
self help group when I need it...oui?
Cheers, Alison Gowan in Kingston, ON.
>Jake Conte
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:19:04 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
Hi Simon.
The possibility of finding a rental is an issue. Unless a person puts out
the $$$ for a quality HG they end up getting an instrument that is either
unplayable or VERY HARD to keep in tune. the Olympic Music Minstrel is
quality for a reasonable price. It's resale value is high if noot equal to
theprice paid if kept nice. (Note: I know very few peole who want to sell
theirs once they have it.) It stays in tune. Out of tune for my instrument
usually means a half step sharp. It's easy to learn to cotton, given only
one drone, one dog and one melody string. I haven't changed the cotton on
my drone for over a year. the dog has never flipped out. It is a little
work horse. OH DEAR, I got side tracked.
What I really wanted to mention is the rental program the Gamba Society has
for their club. This is something a club could do for HG players. The
Gamba Society has a collection of 9 or 10, maybe more now, Gambas they rent
to people interested in learning the Viola de Gamba. The instruments, owned
by society members, usually the first instrument they purchased before
getting the instrument they discovered they wanted. A member of the Society
handles the rental program. There is a formal rental agreement, insurance
by the renter, club membership etc. required.
Joan
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:13:22 -0500
From: Timothy S. Hall <hallt _at_ louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
>What I really wanted to mention is the rental program the Gamba Society has
>for their club.
This is a good program - one of the students in the consort at my university
has a bass through this rental program, and it's a good instrument. There's
also a companion rent-to-own program in which the Society (www.vdgsa.org, if
anyone's interested) commissions viols and sells them on an installment
basis. There's a waiting list, IIRC.
Another sort of program that folks might want to emulate is that which the
Northumbrian piping folks sometimes use. That is for pipemakers (or local
clubs) to have a few simple instruments for hire or loan to people who think
they want to take up the instrument, but don't want to shell out $1000+
before they've ever held one. For an example of this, check out John
Liestman's website devoted to the NSP. These are usually simple (keyless)
instruments; an analogy in the HG world might be a 3 string diatonic box
without dog; but enough to give someone an idea of what's involved with the
instrument.
Best,
Tim Hall
hallt _at_ louisville.edu
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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:09:03 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Relative cost of hg: a correction
In a message dated 12/11/01 2:51:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
acgowan _at_ freeuk.com writes:
Hi Jake,
I do agree with you. I have been purely voyeuristic on this
list since I
introduced myself last spring, and I too am awaiting an
instrument that I
am passionate about and have never actually held.
Thank you, Alison.
However, I have constant pangs of guilt over taking food out
of my
children's mouth (maybe a little overly-dramatic), when I
already own
double bass (again a relatively expensive instrument) that I
don't play
nearly enough these days.
It seems we have a lot im common. Electric bass is my main instrument.
I play a 5-string electric bass tuned E-A-D-G-C. Usually 5-string
basses are tuned with a low-B string, but I wanted the high-C as I play
lead in our band and have more use for the higher range. The music shop
I bought it told me that mine was the first they knew of tuned with
high-C. I have about 8 basses, including a Guild Ashbory and a
doudle-neck.
And then the fear, what if I can't/don't play it?!?!
That is my fear also. At least the "can't" part. I will definitely try.
I thought everybody's comments on this subject have been
great and have
strengthened my resolve. Of course, you will all be there as
my on-line
self help group when I need it...oui?
We can chart our progress together and I'm sure the group will help us.
Jake Conte
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:44:07 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Dominic White
Hello Reymen,
This is Dominic White here. I'm a member of the list, although I don't write
to it too often.
I have a pair of pipes I don't use. In fact, I'm not really sure they are
useable at all, I wouldn't know. They were a gift a long time ago, and I
think they are actually Pakistani pipes, at least that's what I may have
been told. I did used to play them but I never took lessons and never stuck
with it long enough to know if these are a decent set of pipes or not.
They were useable at one time, right now they're just hanging on my wall.
If you are interested, I can snap a polaroid and scan it for you.
Dominic
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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:27:33 +0100
From: Alexander Engel <artengel _at_ aon.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval synfonia request
am 10.12.2001 0:25 Uhr schrieb Simon Wascher unter Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at:
> Hello,
>
> nice to see another Austrian added to this list, wellcome. Is it you
> that plays hurdy gurdy on some recording I heard at a friends ?
>
> Alexander Engel:
> (...)
Hello Simon Wascher and Hurdy Gurdy List,
Thanks for the welcome.
No, sorry, I am not a hurdy gurdy player, I built a long time ago (more than
15 years) some dulcimers and epinettes and one hurdy gurdy, a sort of a
"Bauernleier", but I had not enough informations about tuning and stringing
and nobody, who even knew, what it is what I was building. Now I think I
will be more professional and after a few more simple instruments I´m sure I
will make hurdy gurdies.
May be, Simon; we will meet some day, Austria Isn´t as big as the USA.
greetings from Carinthia to Vienna and all over the world
alexander engel
...............................................................
alexander engel
stoberdorf
althofen 9330
a u s t r i a
telephone 0043 4262 4988 electronic mail artengel _at_ aon.at
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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:55:41 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Question regarding hurdy gurdy history
Hello all,
On another list I mentioned that I was getting a hurdy gurdy and someone
asked "how did the name come about?" Can anyone give a brief
description of where the hurdy gurdy originated and how did it get the
name? I'll do some searching, but I was hoping for a quick, brief
answer.
Thank you,
Jake Conte
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:12:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Introduction and comments
Hello, everyone.
I've recently subscribed to the list, and after
reading for a few days, thought I should introduce
myself before joining the discussion.
I've been playing hurdy-gurdy for about 5 years. I
came to it after being exposed (infected? :-) at an
early music collegium. I'm primarily a wind and
percussion player -- hurdy-gurdy is the only stringed
instrument I really play, rather than play at. I seem
to be making an amateur career of playing somewhat
unusual instruments, with pipe and tabor and
hurdy-gurdy being the "oddest" in my collection. I
play the more usual recorder, flute, pennywhistle, and
so on, along with early music staples such as shawm
and krummhorn. I have even made a rackett. Three,
actually, tenor, bass, and great bass. :-)
My hurdy-gurdy is a 3 string 'Minnesinger' symphony,
built from a kit by George Kelischek.
(http://www.susato.com, although I'm not sure if he's
still selling the kit) I've played other people's
instruments, and I'm now seriously shopping for a
chromatic instrument with chien. My main interest is
music of the Renaissance and earlier. I'm actually
quite pleased with the little Kelischek box -- it has
a much larger sound than one would expect, and hasn't
been much trouble to keep in tune. I generally keep
the drones in C and c', with the melody in g, the
better to play dance music with recorders.
On the price of instruments: anything not mass
produced in a factory is going to be a lot more
expensive. Hand work costs money. Mass produced
instruments can be quite good, but they won't be as
good as a custom instrument built by a knowledgeable
craftsman. (They also won't be as bad as a
scratch-built instrument by someone without a clue!)
And if the market won't support the investment in
tooling to mass produce instruments, you're going to
have to pay for the craftsmanship to get a good
instrument. The sheer number of parts that interact
in a hurdy-gurdy mean that tooling for mass production
is going to be more difficult (meaning expensive
investment) than for a simple cylindrical bore wind
instrument like a flute or tabor pipe. Having had my
notion of "expensive" for instruments permanently
altered when I started shopping for my first
hurdy-gurdy and a shawm at the same time, US$1000
seems a reasonable price a basic hurdy-gurdy.
On "try before you buy": Absolutely! I'll buy mass
produced instruments (Yamaha recorders, for example)
without a trial period, since I expect them to be
pretty much the same. I've also bought enough of them
over the years to know what brand names and models I'm
willing to buy... anything not on my "been there, done
that" list I'm very hesitant to put money on without
trying first. And if you don't know enough about an
instrument to trust your own opinion about it, find
someone who does and get them to go over it with you.
Finding an instrument that really fits you and the way
you want to play is kind of like buying shoes. Some
look good, but don't feel right, some fit well but
aren't your style, some look OK and are the right
size, but are badly made, and sometimes you get really
lucky and find something that is well made in a style
you like, fits well, and is for sale at a good price.
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:38:14 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Question regarding hurdy gurdy history
Hi Jake,
The original name for the instrument was organistrum. The name hurdy-gurdy
is British and is used in England for almost anything that is turned with a
crank. In the U.S. it became confused with an instrument which is actually
a barrel organ or barrel piano. Both were turned with a crank, but the
barrel organ is much like a big music box and the player provides the
motive power rather than having to initiate the music themselves.
That's as brief as I can get. :-)
Cali
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:18:45 -0800
From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Introduction and comments
Hi Dennis,
Welcome to the hg list. I'm always especially glad to see another early
music person turn up. I just finished playing a show (Revels) where I
played hg, krummhorn, shawm, recorder and rommelpot.
You'll be glad of your decision to "go chromatic" because you will get to
play hg more. I recently published two volumes of diatonic medieval music
for hg, because there is such a lack of resources for diatonic players. I
started out intending to make a nice handout for the Over the Water HG
Festival, but ended up with so much music that I went ahead and made books.
:-)
I can't say enough good things about the Olympic Musical Instruments
Minstrel if you are looking in the $1000 range. It's chromatic and has the
chien, of course, but they are the most stable, happy hurdy-gurdies you are
likely to find. I play mine outdoors quite a bit, and it is my gurdy of
choice on stage because it will stay in tune (!!!) I love my volksgurdy,
but it wouldn't stay in tune through a show.
Joanne
--- Joanne Andrus
--- joaand _at_ earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:48:10 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments
Hello,
Joanne Andrus:
> (...)
> I recently published two volumes of diatonic medieval music
> for hg, because there is such a lack of resources for diatonic players. I
> started out intending to make a nice handout for the Over the Water HG
> Festival, but ended up with so much music that I went ahead and made books.
This sounds intresting. Can you describe a bit whats in these books and
is it possible to buy a copy?
Quite often there is a request from my students for medieval music
suitable for hurdy gurdy (for some people hurdy gurdy and medieval music
seem to be synonymus), and a nice compilation would be great.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:05:12 EST
From: DBur333333 _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments
You mentioned Revels...are you from the Boston area? There is a Revels here
in Boston (Cambridge, actually) and I was wondering if you were in the Boston
Revels.
Thanks, Donna
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:02:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Introduction and comments
--- Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net> wrote:
>[...]
> music person turn up. I just finished playing a
> show (Revels) where I
> played hg, krummhorn, shawm, recorder and rommelpot.
We've got Revels here in Chicago, too. One of my
recorder consort played this year. Two others (now in
Boston) played pipe and tabor for Revels last year
when I was already committed for the dates.
Rommelpot is a blast -- someone described it to me
once as "the perfect 'guy' instrument, where you get
to make vile noises and claim they're intentional".
:-) I need a new head for mine, just haven't gotten
around to tracking down thin enough rawhide. Dog chew
rawhide is too thick.
> play hg more. I recently published two volumes of
> diatonic medieval music
> for hg, because there is such a lack of resources
> for diatonic players. I
I haven't had a lot of trouble finding pieces, but
then my early music collection is pretty extensive at
this point. Where are your volumes available? More
sheet music is kind of like more instruments -- its
really difficult to have too much. :-)
> I can't say enough good things about the Olympic
> Musical Instruments
> Minstrel if you are looking in the $1000 range.
> It's chromatic and has the
> chien, of course, but they are the most stable,
> happy hurdy-gurdies you are
> likely to find. I play mine outdoors quite a bit,
> and it is my gurdy of
> choice on stage because it will stay in tune (!!!)
Outdoors is something I'm likely to do a lot of... I
keep hearing (reading) good things about the Minstrel,
but I'd like to get a firsthand look at one. Anyone
in the Chicago area with one? Alternatively, I get to
places within an arc around Chicago including
Milwaukee, Madison, St. Louis, and Indianapolis with
fair regularity, and I'd be happy to take a side trip
to get an hour or two with an instrument.
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:14:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Vincent Ho <hbv _at_ tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dennis Sherman wrote:
> My hurdy-gurdy is a 3 string 'Minnesinger' symphony,
> built from a kit by George Kelischek.
> (http://www.susato.com, although I'm not sure if he's
> still selling the kit)
They stopped selling the kit version, but you can still get the finished
version.
--
Vincent B. Ho hbv _at_ tsoft.com
--
When I dream that you love me, you'll surely forgive;
Extend not your anger to sleep;
For in visions alone your affections can live,--
I rise and it leaves me to weep. George Gordon, Lord Byron (1788-1824)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:06:38 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Revels (no FC)
In a message dated 12/13/01 8:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
DBur333333 _at_ aol.com writes:
There is also The Christmas Revels held annually (early to mid December)
at Symphony Space in New York City.
Jake
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:59:05 EST
From: DBur333333 _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Revels (no FC)
Thanks for the response...I am always on the lookout for HG players around
Boston, but sounds like you are in NYC. It must be exciting to be in the
Revels.
Good holidays to you.
Donna
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:27:43 -0800
From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments
Actually, I live in the Seattle area. Revels are now in 12 cities across
the country. I've played in the Puget Sound Revels, but I play in the
Portland (OR) Revels more often, including this year. Cambridge is the
original Revels city where it all started.
Joanne
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:50:32 -0800
From: Joanne Andrus <joaand _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction and comments
The Medieval Hurdy-Gurdy, Vol. 1 Diatonic Medieval Music has 72 pieces from
various sources, including a few two and three part tunes in the back.
Vol. 2 Cantigas de Santa Maria has 39 Cantigas, also all diatonic. They are
arranged for C/G tuning. I also have a book of English masque tunes
arranged for two hurdy-gurdies (not a diatonic book.)
So far they are available from two music stores in Seattle, Dusty Strings
206-634-1662 and John's Music 1-800-473-5194. Both of these stores are
happy to do mail order. I'm working on having them available through other
sources as well. They are $25 for each book.
I'm working on a couple of Renaissance volumes, one diatonic and one
chromatic, as well as volumes of medieval music for chromatic hg and for
D/G tuning. (This little handout project has really snowballed...)
Joanne
--- Joanne Andrus
--- joaand _at_ earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:05:56 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Messages from the Listmaster
Dear HG List,
As you may have noticed, the list has been down for several days. It
turned out that the anticipated shutoff of services came later than
expected. The list and website are now up and running with a new provider.
If you have sent email to the list and not seen it, please send it again.
Also, there are a number of people on the list who have not introduced
themselves. Lurking is fine, especially until you get a feeling for what
the list is like, but I'd like to encourage anyone who hasn't made an
introduction to do so. Thank you very much.
Alden the Listmaster
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:41:01 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] Happy new year
I'm going to be far from any PCs for a couple of
weeks,so....
If you need to write me something, do it NOW.
If you want I read your message please DON'T use that
damned spam infected ghironda _at_ hotmail.com but use :
lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it
marcellobono _at_ yahoo.com
bono _at_ bologna.enea.it
Happy, happy, happy new year to you all from your
friend across the ocean (or the Alps...it depends on
you).
Baci e abbracci agli italiani :o)
ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:51:15 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Happy new year
Dear Marcello,
away from a PC for a few weeks ....what bliss!!
Happy new year
Nicholas
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:58:10 +1100
From: Aylwen Garden <garden _at_ earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: [HG] I've been lurking....
I've been lurking in the background and can't remember if I've introduced
myself....
Aylwen Garden, 29, hurdy gurdy player, married to John Garden, 43, hurdy
gurdy player, leader of band Earthly Delights, composer of hurdy gurdy
and english bagpipe tunes,etc; together we have 4 children - the eldest
is 10 and she also has a smaller flat-backed hurdy gurdy. Our 3 hurdy
gurdys are made by Tim Guster in Adelaide, Australia. We live in
Yarralumla, Canberra, Australia. If Cliff Stapleton reads this message,
then "hi!", "the lake is still great for swimming in and John still plays
in his wonderfully unique style".
If you want to read about John see
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/page9.html
or the band Earthly Delights http://www.earthlydelights.com.au or our
latest 4 CD production http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/page4.html .
If anyone wants to help us get over to Europe please send me