Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - February 2002
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:35:00 +0100
From: gerard.chatelier <gerard.chatelier _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] Mirecourt, on catalogues
Graham,
you surely know the guitare body Colson of "conservatorio di musica Luigi
Cherubini" in firenze n°49 , picture in thecatalogue book:"collezioni dei
Medici e dei Lorena" edited 1980 by Giunti Barbera Firenze
and the luth body one from the
"collection Hel " in Lille . Picture can be seen in the book edited by
"Edition des musée de Lille " ISBN 2- 902092-11-3
I own myself a luth body Colson witch had originali a single tangent row
(and of course a single nut ).and twenty years ago I added a second row
(that ,if you play in G/C, add nothing but difficulties to tune ! )
Wat is curious is the sound post renforcement : it is not in the lenth of
the central rib (as usual ) ,but in right angle glued transversal on the
three first ribs.
However theses instruments are very simply made and I feel very fine and
elegants; but with a little pretty sound.
I may send you pictures if you want....
Gérard Chatelier
Nice France
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:30:33 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Any folk danceing, in or near Paris on February 8,9,10 ?
Does anyone know about any kind of folk dancing in Paris or close to it
on February 9th or 10th.
I already got the list from trad.org
Thanks
r.t.
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:11:45 +0100
From: gerard.chatelier <gerard.chatelier _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: [HG] the COLSON in cité de la musique PARIS
Graham,
Page d'accueil Recherche
Résultat 1/1 Retour à la liste Nouvelle recherche Icone
recherche
Accueil
Accès aux périodiques Intruments et oeuvres d'arts Photographie Documents
Facteurs d'instrument Détail de :Vielle à roue-Colson-Nicolas-19e (1e
moit-MIRECOURT/FRANCE/EUR-E.1723
Numéro d'inventaire:E.1723
Nom de l'oeuvre:Vielle à roue
Facteur : Colson Nicolas (1798
Date d'exécution:
19e (1e moitié)
Lieu de fabrication :
MIRECOURT FRANCE EUROPE
Description:
6 cordes * Forme guitare * Fond plat en 2 pièces d'érable * Eclisses en
érable avec 1 bouton en bois à l'éclisse inférieure * Table en sapin à
double filet d'ébène et marqueterie ivoire et ébène * 2 ouïes en "C" *
Cordier plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois naturel et cheville en ivoire *
Cache-roue plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois clair * 2 taquets en ébène *
Boîtier plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois clair * Clavier : 13 touches
diatoniques en ébène; 10 touches chromatiques en ivoire, pastille de
nacre * Chevillier à tête de vieillard * 6 chevilles en palissandre *
Marque au fer, sur les côtés du manche : "COLSON A MIRECOURT" * (Source :
Inventaire du musée)
Dimensions:
Longueur totale:670 mm
Longueur caisse:470 mm
Largeur caisse med.:160 mm
Largeur caisse inf.:270 mm
Eclisse:90 mm
Largeur caisse sup.:190 mm
Collection : Musée de la musique
Historique:
Mode acquisition:Don
Date acquisition:31/03/1908
Document(s) :
[12vert.gif]
Photo - 10747 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Nicolas Colson, Mirecourt,
France, 1ère moitié du 19ème, E.1723
[12vert.gif]
Photo - 10748 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Nicolas Colson, Mirecourt,
France, 1ère moitié du 19ème, détail,
[12vert.gif]
Photo - 13721 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Colson (Nicolas),
Mirecourt, 1 ère moitié 19 ème, E.1723, chevill
[12vert.gif]
Photo - 13720 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Colson (Nicolas),
Mirecourt, 1 ère moitié 19 ème, E.1723, vue d'e
[12vert.gif]
Livre - 4° L 187 - Palmer, Susann: - The hurdy-gurdy
Notes:Photographie de travail n° 5812
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:00:30 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Servus Simon
At very first you have to be sure that what you turning IS a hurdy gurdy.
A manual coffee grinder for instance looks very similar but sounds much more
crunchy, ask Wolfgang, he is an expert! So if you have any soundproblems,
you shouldn't change the guts but the beans!!
Regards (BABA)
Helmut :-))
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:49:53 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Colson ,
Henry,
Thank you for your very interesting views, as you say, that would explain
the indifference of the Mirecourt Musee
From comments by Gérard the Colson is likely to be quiet and sweet, unlike
my present HG which is best listened to at 50m !!
Renee,
I guess you wouldn't recommend visiting the Musee
Graham Whyte
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:42:25 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Any folk danceing, in or near Paris on February 8,9,10 ?
r u interested exclusively in French, or Breton, or Irish?
Either way u can search at "la mission Bretonne" 22 rue Delambre Paris
14 metro Edgard Quinet..
Ginny
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:18:56 +0100
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] Colson ,
There's nothing wrong with this museum. It presents the history of the
lutherie of Mirecourt, i.e. violins and other string instruments. But don't
expect information about this little side-road, the HG.
René Meeuws
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Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:38:50 -0700
From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca>
Subject: [HG] Helmut's observation
Finally something that I can get involved in! I make and sell coffee
grinders and so can offer some advise in this area.
Barry
www.blackboardcreations.com
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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:03:16 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: [HG] hurdy-gurdies for sale
Dear all,
This may interest those in the UK or Ireland.
Due to lack of time to actually play them I've decided to sell my
hurdy-gurdies, details as follows:
Lute-backed hurdy-gurdy currently in Bourbonnais tuning by Paul D
oyle 1984 after the Pajot in the V&A
Spruce soundbaord maple pegbox and tailpiece with ebony veneer
(boxwood inlay) the ribs are flamed maple and another unidentified wood.
Keys are ebony and ivory. Included in the price are hard case and a
selection of tune books Massif Central vols 1+2 and others. There is
a slight crack in the soundboard near the one of the 'ears' but doesn't
effect sound quality
Price c. 1000 euro
Guitar shaped hurdy-gurdy in C/G by Paul Doyle 1994
Walnut soundboard back and sides maple pegbox and tailpiece with
ziracote veneer and ziracote wheel cover. Keys are ebony and tulipwood.
New walnut veneered wheel by Chris Allen fitted 1996. Included in the
price are hard-case and a selection of 18th C. music including fascimiles
of Bouin/Dupuits and Corrette's methods, Fuzeau duet books other music by
Boismortier and Corrette and others
Price c. 1300 euro
I'll organise digital photos of them next week
regards
Nicholas O'Sullivan
Librarian
St. Angela's College
Lough Gill
Sligo
Ireland
Telephone: + 353 (0) 71 43 580
Fax: + 353 (0) 71 44 585
E-mail: nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie
Web address: http://www.stangelascollegesligo.ie
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Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:15:02 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Fw: En reponse a votre demande
Dear list,
I got the following from La Musée de la Lutherie à Mirecourt.
At least we have some accurate Colson dates now.
Graham Whyte
----- Original Message -----
From: André BONNEVILLE <Andre.Bonneville _at_ wanadoo.fr>
To: <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Sent: 02 February 2002 15:03
Subject: En reponse a votre demande
Monsieur en réponse à votre demande :
Nous connaissons trés peu de choses sur les Colson de Mirecourt.
Il y en aurait eu deux.
Le père Nicolas Colson né à Houécourt (à 20 km de Mirecourt) en 1785 et mort
à Mirecourt en 1871.
Il est dit luthier ou facteur de vielle. Il aurait participé à l'exposition
de 1844 à Paris.
Le fils, Joseph Sebastien Colson, né à Mirecourt en 1829 mort à Mirecourt en
1882.
Il est dit sculpteur, luthier, facteur de vielle ou facteur de guitare.
Il semblerait que votre vielle ait été fabriquée par Nicolas Colson.
Je tiens ces informations de Roland Terrier luthier à Mirecourt qui tient à
jour toutes les généalogies des luthiers Mirecurtiens.
Brigitte BONNEVILLE Présidente des amis du musée.
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:25:39 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] More old hurdy-gurdy fun!
Ok, Watsons; we've had so much fun tracking down Colson, I thought I might
enlist the help of the list in identifying a specific instrument. Can
anyone help me figure out whether this instrument has a specific recorded
history, as in a listing in some exposition catalog or other? Its owner
would like to know if it has any kind of historical significance before
deciding whether to restore it to playability using modern materials, and
I'm not sure, but I think it's possible that it might have been some
presentation instrument.
I've posted some photos of it; but since they're not perfect, here also is
a transcription of what the photos say. Anything I've typed in
[brackets]is either illegible, or I just don't know what it says; check out
the photos and you'll see for yourself.
The side of the keybox has writing, as you may expect
(http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keyboxlabel.jpg):
Maison fondée en 1863
a la brande renommée
[_?_] fabrication d'instrumens
NIGOUT A JENZAT (allier.)
Admis a l'exposition unives{lle}
the {lle} is "superscripted" (sorry, I don't know how else to describe it)
- it's obvious in the photo.
It has two labels on the inside of the keybox lid. The central one
(http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/centerlabel.jpg):
EXPOSITION UNIVERSELLE
INSTRUMENTS À CORDE
----------------------------
A LA GRANDE RENOMMÉE
de la fabrication d'Instruments de
NIGOUT
Élèvé de PAJOT fils, décédé
a JENZAT (Allier).
No. 1080De tout pri[sce] 1884
There's a little glare, so it's hard to read. Sorry...
Then there's one pasted next to the center one, closest to the head
(http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/leftlabel.jpg):
GRAND[ __?__F]ABRIQUE DE VIELLES
GARA[NT?]IES
PAJOT JEUNE
{Repair[i?]}A JENZAT{en 1893}
Par GANNAT (ALLIER)
The {Repair[i?]} and the {en 1893} are written by hand in the positions
shown above. Again, it's obvious in the photo, although you can't read the
year in the photo. In person, it's quite clearly 1893.
The label inside the instrument is almost completely illegible, due to a
coating of what must be centuries of dirt. I've made no attempt to clean
it in order to read it. I CAN see that it's all hand written, and I can
clearly read "1883", but that's it.
Some other photos of the instrument:
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/tailpiece.jpg
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keyboxlid.jpg
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keys.jpg
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/head.jpg
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/back.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:48:49 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Colin
found this advert in the Hobgoblin list of second-hand instruments- don't
know any more about it but thought it may be of interest.
Colin Hill
>14H1081 French Hurdy Gurdy C 1875, Guitar shape, sycamore £
1,995.00 In London
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:58:04 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Nigout,
Hi Matt ,
From the book " La Vielle et les Luthiers de Jenzat "
by Jean François Chassaing , ( 1987 )
Gilbert Nigout is an exception in the Jenzat tradition ,since he is
not family
related to the Pajot/ Pimpard dynasty . Born in 1837 , son of Pierre
Nigout
barrel maker in Jenzat. He became apprentice with Pajot-Fils (
Jean-Baptiste
Pajot :1817-63) and will write it on all labels and catalogues for the
rest
of his life ( Pajot -Fils was the best known shop in the village ) .He
is the
smallest of all the Jenzat luthiers ( 1,55 m ) and will be exempted of
military service because he is a widow's only son. Witnesses
describe him wearing a "chapeau melon " ( style of hat worn by
John Steed in " the Avengers )
His training probably was 6 years at Pajot , 2 years in Mirecourt
and 2 years with Decante , he starts his own shop im 1863 and get
married in 1867 , has two children : Marie-Louise and Jean Baptiste .
In 1867 he goes to the " Exposition Universelle " ( world fair) in Paris
.
His son was born in 1871 , trained as a luthier but died in 1890 , so
Gilbert worked alone for the rest of his life and the shop closed
after his death . His work has a very good reputation .
Three labels are showed in the book for Nigout ,
http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/centerlabel.jpg
is the second one
The instrument was repaired by Pajot Jeune ( the shop named
Pajot Jeune , " Young Pajot" was founded in 1875 by Gilbert Pajot
( 1835-77 , his real name is Jacques Antoine and Gilbert is his
nickname since his mother is Gilberte Pajot and his father is unknown .
not to be confused Gilbert Pajot 1794-1853 .... I feel there is
the substance for a soap opera here .... )
The head sculpture is like the one shown in the book .
( black haired , puffed cheeks person )
Why was it send to Pajot for repairs since the original maker
was in the same village and still et work ? Maybe it was sold
and re-sold in a different area where the reputation of Pajot
Fils shop was greater than Nigout ?
Hope it helps a bit ,
Henry Boucher
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:14:03 -0700
From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca>
Subject: [HG] Re:Nigout
Yikes Henry, you must have been there! What kind of bicycle did he ride?
:)
www.blackboardcreations.com
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:11:48 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] More old hurdy-gurdy fun!
Matt said:
>Ok, Watsons; we've had so much fun tracking down Colson, I thought I might
>enlist the help of the list in identifying a specific instrument. Can
>anyone help me figure out whether this instrument has a specific recorded
>history, as in a listing in some exposition catalog or other? Its owner
>would like to know if it has any kind of historical significance before
>deciding whether to restore it to playability using modern materials, and
>I'm not sure, but I think it's possible that it might have been some
>presentation instrument.
The person to ask doesn't have email as far as I know: the curator at the
museum in Jenzat and the author of the book Henry was quoting from,
Jean-Francois Chassaing. He has a registry of the still-extant HG's, and
I'm pretty sure he has a lot of the old records from the Jenzat luthiers.
It's hard to tell without seeing it in person, but from the pictures I'd
say it's a fairly standard mid-to-high-end Nigout. Some Nigouts are really
fabulous in sound, some are pretty average. At first glance I don't think
there's anything special enough about it that it should be shut in a glass
case. ;-)
Alden
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Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:25:04 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fw: En reponse a votre demande
A big thanks to you, Graham, and to Mme. Bonneville as well!
I've always thought that the Mirecourt instruments' heads were particularly
fine, and had theorized that both the Colson and Thouvenel shops had
employed a local sculptor to carve them. This new information indicates
that possibly they were carved in-house by the younger Colson.
If Mme. Bonneville's information is correct, then Palmer incorrectly listed
the birth and death dates for the elder Colson, and the working period and
name of the younger. Hardly a surprise, but regrettable.
Alden
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:51:30 -0300 (ART)
From: marcos kaiser mori <kaisermori _at_ yahoo.com.br>
Subject: [HG] plans
Hi, list!
Does anyone knows where can I find plans for a
simphony? I also would like to exchange any kind of
hg plans. I have plans(now in better state) for the
louvet from the musee de la musique (P. Jacquier
1980), and a Lasnier from the Germanisches National
meuseum.
For those with whom I lost contact (due to my
situation here in Hungary) I ask for apologize. If I
still can do something for you, please contact me.
Marcos Kaiser Mori
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:13:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
George Kelischek was selling symphony plans, the ones
he uses for the minnesinger model symphony he sells.
As far as I know, the plans are still available,
although he seems to have stopped selling the kit.
The Kelischek Workshop can be found at
http://www.susato.com
I've been pretty happy with the symphony I built from
the kit, and the plans I saw looked like they match.
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:40:40 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy
Wow,
I just have to write to this list to say that today is the fist day that I
have ever seen a hurdy gurdy,
Matt from Camden Maine came and showed my Husband, He played and explained
all the working parts!!!
It was WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!
I now understand the absolute love of this incredible instrument!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think I found a new love...
Laura
wife to Jim Winters
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:42:51 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy Player
While on a used book hunt, I came across the
"Purple Hurdy Gurdy" by George Callaghan.
Check it out: http://www.kennys.ie/artists/callaghan/index.shtml
Judith
Judith Lindenau
judith _at_ taar.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:34:01 GMT+00:00
From: martin.atkins _at_ talk21.com
Subject: [HG] New member
Hi list,
I've been on the mailing list for some two or three months now, but have
really been just too busy to get in contact. Appologies.
Quick bit of info... My name's Martin Atkins, I'm a software engineer
from the South West of England and, when I eventually finish buying my
new house, I'll be out in the shed building my first HG. I've been interested
in them for a good few years now, but haven't had anywhere I could call a
workshop so as to build the thing!
Right, off to work again. Hope to 'speak' to some (or all!) of you sooner
or later.
Mart
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Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:18:51 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy
>
>I think I found a new love...
>
>Laura, wife to Jim Winters
I'm pretty sure that Laura is referring to the hurdy-gurdy in that last
sentence <g>.
~ Matt
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:44:20 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy
I still feel like I have a hurdy gurdy hangover... The morning after my
love affair with this wonderful instrument..
How does one go on now with day to day life.
I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Laura wife to Jim Winters
P.S Matt. thanks for the great time "smile"
Hope to see you again..
What is the least expensive hurdy gurdy I could buy..
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:51:56 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] builder question
What an amazingly great instrument.
How can it all seem so intriguing?
This is for builders;
is there anything secretly written on the inside of a hurdy gurdy,
before it is sealed up forever? Like, I don't know, a poem or a confession
to murder, or
something really interesting. I just felt curious to know.
Thanks your comments,
jim
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 06:57:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Chiara Negro <ghiro_chi _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy
Hi Laura ! I' m glad you too are infected by the hg
virus : it's not dangerous, that's in this way for all
us at the beginning, you awake one morning and you
want a hg to play !!
Hi list !
Ciao by Chiara
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:19:05 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy
Just to say, I am delighted at my wife's response to the instrument. It was
totally unexpected.
I can understand liking Matthew. I also understand now the impulse to do
double meanings.
It was just the coolest demonstration.
The instrument is just so great.
For those of you not there, like everyone except the three of us and a few
customers, it was
a straight forward demonstration and introduction to the instrument, done by
Matthew.
It was at my home just north of Bangor, Maine.
It lasted about two hours and Matthew used a sort of personal or
experimental design instrument.
Yet it was, as he said, a basic French approach in design. It had six
strings in the regular way.
It was a sort of modern, flat-backed design, in that sort of tear-drop
shape. Somewhat like that, in very light wood, with sort of an art deco look
to it.
We did take photos, and I can ask Matthew if he would like me to make that
available to anyone.
A personal note is that I played it for awhile and I had never done anything
like that.
My wife was of course there, and I was amazed that she liked it so much.
And as I mentioned in a different letter today, the instrument just seems to
abound with mystique and intrigue.
There must be secret messages inside them.
It seems to have a transforming quality.
May be it reorganizes brain cells in some secret and amazing way.
Just mesmerizing to see and hear.
One more thing, Matthew is an incredible builder.
Me too Matt, thanks for such an amazing afternoon.
jim
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:01:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] builder question
Some builders do this. Anybody want to commission a CT scan study of the
insides of old instruments? Or know where we could pick up a surplus
endoscope?
These days, with the ability to get video images from all sorts of places
that were previously inaccessible, the inside of a vielle is looking less
secretive all the time ;-)
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:18:38 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] builder question
Hi Jim,
sometimes it happens that there are some drops of blood inside, I leave them
as a sacrifice, hoping to get released once.
But seriously, the most fun I have to make things really exact and smooth
while knowing that nobody will see them on normal conditions.
I think most luthiers agree.
Greetings
Helmut
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:15:59 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] builder question
I agree with Helmut, there is a kind of special pride in making the inside
of the instrument as beautiful as the outside even though you know that it
will probably not be seen. I like to fit everything very carefully so that
the joints are all just so and no drops of glue are left on the inside.
:-)----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:49:12 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] builder question
>This is for builders;
>is there anything secretly written on the inside of a hurdy gurdy,
>before it is sealed up forever? Like, I don't know, a poem or a confession
>to murder, or
>something really interesting. I just felt curious to know.
>Thanks your comments,
>jim
That would be telling, now wouldn't it?
Juan
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:49:13 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
Henry-
Are you saying that the label shown in this fellow's book is the one from
this very instrument, or just one like it?
Is there any contact information for M. Chassaing?
~ Matt
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:31:49 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
>
>Is there any contact information for M. Chassaing?
You can write to him at:
La Maison du Luthier
03800 JENZAT
France
I don't have a phone number or email.
Alden
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:55:30 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
Hi Matt,
here it is :
jean-francois.chassaing _at_ wanadoo.fr
Maxou
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:38:13 EST
From: JudyHurdy _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Upcoming French dance in Olympia in April
Hi everyone -- Our band "Feu de Joie" will be holding a French dance the
evening of Saturday April 27th at at grange in Olympia. Eileen Little will
be our caller. Anyone who would like more details (we're working on driving
directions!) please email me back individually at JudyHurdy _at_ aol.com. The
proceeds will be given to Pierre's family.
Hope some of you show up! Judy
Arthur Hixson--pipes, recorders
Phyllis Solter--fiddle
Judy Olmstead--HG
plus, maybe, a few guests
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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:44:13 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Hello,
I noticed that there is a nice looking French luteback
hurdy gurdy for sale on ebay. The builder is Maxime
Boireaud. The seller is in the UK. You can view the
site at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1512160739
About 6 months ago I also purchased a HG made by
Maxime Boireaud off of ebay and it looks good and
after I fixed it up it's starting to sound real nice.
Keep cranking and droning,
David Smith
Dearborn, Michigan, USA
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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:16:18 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
Thanks, Maxou. My French isn't good enough to help me communicate - can
I write to him in English, or should I have my correspondence translated?
~ Matt
PS: Nina Bohlen and I are really looking forward to your workshop in
March...
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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:00:56 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
Hi,
if Jean-François CHASSAING wants to have an international audience for
the Jenzat Museum, he must understand english !
Maxou
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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:14:56 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout,
I'll take that as a yes...<g>
Thanks!
~ Matt
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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:49:09 -0500
From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <fournierbru _at_ securenet.net>
Subject: [HG] symphonia
I have just finished building my first symphonia. Anyone who is
interested in finding out how I built it, with very modest means, can
contact me offlist
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Montreal, Canada
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Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:01:38 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hello,
I have plans for a Henry III type , called in french " vielle Normande "
http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/folk/folk/hurdygur.htm , but it is on blue print
and I do not know how it will come out of the photocopy .
I have the early version of the Dewit plan fot a Flemish HG , the one described
in the Hackman's w-site , I have already made one like it and it works well
and is easy to make , some pictures on this site :
http://www.prydein.com/vielle/vielle.html
I am mainly interested by your plan for the Lasnier , the Louvet also
looks good
A bientôt,
Henry Boucher
St Lambert Québec.
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:07:22 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Quizz ...
Hello all,
Since things are a bit quiet , I propose a little quizz about HG
bridges
for your amusement ( and my education )
True or False ,
Bridges are ALWAYS made of maple .
Wood grain is oriented horizontally , bark side facing the keybox .
The proper distance with the wheel is 2 to 3 cm , closer for baroque
farther away for folk .
The bridge is glued on the table with an anchor pin is set at the base .
Heavier is better
A two footed bridge sound mellower than a solid base one .
Bridges with string height adjustment have been prooved to be useless
gadgets .
Please answer in great number and feel free to add more
affirmations ,
The winner get my sincere admiration and the four days of nice weather
for his own use , at a time or my choice .
Henry
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:16:12 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Cc: boite _at_ sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz ...
Need to winnow this down a bit. Are we talking French HGs or all HGs?
That would make a difference. What might be true for French
instruments might not be true for Hungarian and vice versa. I assume
you mean French instruments (since Baroque for tekerõ is sort of
meaningless).
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:48:05 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Quizz...
Good point Arle ,
I was indeed thinking in terms of ouest-europe instruments ( french,
flemish,
wallon and spanish ) but you can try the game with the hungarian,
swedish HG or a symphonie , I do not think that the physic of vibrating
strings
knows borders <g>....
.... so , is the bridge of a tékéro always made of maple ?
Henry
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:56:13 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz...
On my tekerõ the bridge is made of beech. I don't know if this is
typical. Perhaps Balazs, if he reads this, can say.
(Balázs, milyen fából készíted a "bridge"-t? Juharból, vagy bukkbol,
vagy más fából?)
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:12:30 +0000
From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Easier quiz?
Cowardly beginners like me try not to think too much about the
technicalities. My quiz challenge would be to find the shortest sentence
(i.e. minimum number of words) that adequately explains to a first-time
observer how the instrument makes its unique sound.
[Yesterday I had someone convinced the handle powered a fan blowing air
through a set of pipes!]
Matthew Williams
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:36:47 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [HG] Nordic droning coming soon
Dear tribesmen and -ladies!
Your collection of hurdy-gurdy -recordings is very valuable even without
this, but not complete!
My band Ihtiriekko has made a 5-track cd with some 17 minutes of Nordic
traditional and contemporary folk-music. Drone-guarantee on 4 tracks, hgs
on 3 of 5. Drones are provided by my vielles (groddalira and tekerolant),
bagpipe, bowed harp, moraharpa - and sometimes even with human voice.
We recorded the stuff live in studio with only some overdubs. The cd is not
home-burn and it has a proper label and package with photos and informative
text.
We are selling this recording with 10 euros, including postage to all
countries.
The policy is that you send the money to us in cash (euros, GB pounds and
US dollars accepted) and we send you the record. If you are not satisfied
you can send a disclaimer to this list - this business is based on mutual
trust and honesty. Also positive comments and reviews can be sent, I
suppose...
So, e-mail me privately to know more about the cd, if you like. Let me also
know if you are willing to order it. The contact information is listed in
the end of this message.
Maybe I have to "place" this music to some genre or label it so that you
can imagine what am I talking about? Well, with only little forcing I can
twist my fingers to write this: if you liked Hedningarna and Garmarna
(before machines), this is for you.
Yours,
Esa Mäkinen, Finland
PS. Here is the sketch for the english translation of the information you
get with the record, lyrics in finnish, swedish and english will be with
too.
IHTIRIEKKO
1. Hiiren häät
2. Lippa
3. Astu aallolle
4. Laulu
5. A du sett na
Ihtiriekko
Juulia Salonen
Pekko Käppi
Patrik Weckman
Esa Mäkinen
Hiiren häät
Comp. & Arr. PW & JS, lyrics: trad.
The mouse is getting married and this children's poem tells about the
furious party and the mercyless faith of many innocent guests...
Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, djembe, Patrik: moraharpa, Esa: groddalira
Lippa
Trad., arr. PW
This is a rustic, groovy jouhikko-melody from fisherman Feodor Pratsu
(1851-?) from Koirinoja -village, Karelia.
Pekko: bowed harp, Patrik: 10-string kantele, Juulia: willow flutes. Esa:
jew's harp
Astu aallolle
Comp. JS, arr. Ihtiriekko, lyrics trad. arr JS
A mystic voyage under the waves, riding with fishes
Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, bowed harp, Patrik: moraharpa, Esa: tekerolant
Laulu
Comp. & arr. JS, lyrics trad.arr. JS
Singers praise their skills and the power of singing
Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, Patrik: bagpipe, Esa: groddalira
A du sett na
Trad. arr JS & PW
A swedish polska with a drop of psychedelic spicing: "Have you seen my blue
goats?"
Juulia: vocals, Patrik: spilåpipa
Instruments:
Kantele is traditional fenno-ugric instrument. It 's steel strings are
plucked with fingers. 10-string kantele on Lippa is made by AmF
soitinrakentajat.
Jouhikko, the bowed harp is a 3-string horse-hair fiddle. The player
shortens the strings with the backs of his fingers. One string plays the
drone. Jouhikko was used as dance-music instrument before the era of
fiddles in some areas around The Baltic Sea. Pekko has made his jouhikko
himself.
Groddalira and tekerolant are rustic variants of hurdy-gurdy - family.
Strong drones and freely buzzing rhytms are typical to eastern tradition of
hurdy-gurdies. Groddalira is from Sweden, made by Leif Eriksson and
tekerolant is Hungarian, the maker is Balázs Nagy.
Bagpipe Patrik plays on Laulu is a Swedish model with single reeds, small
bag and one pipe for melody and one for the drone. The bagpipe tradition
lasted until 1940's in some parts of Sweden. This bagpipe is made by Leif
Eriksson.
Moraharpa is the ancestor of Swedish nyckelharpa. This bowed instrument was
used also in other parts of Europe in 16th -17th century, as those who know
Praetorius' Syntagma Musicum may remember. Moraharpa has three strings,
keys are in 2 rows and the middle string plays the drone. Patrik has made
his moraharpa himself.
Spilåpipa is a rustic recorder from Sweden.
Willow flute has no finger holes. It's natural scales are produced by
altering the strength of blowing and by opening and closing the end. Willow
flute used to be a spring-time amusement of kids and herders. Juulia plays
bass and soprano flutes by Jean-Paul Yvert.
Jew's harp is probably the most universal instrument. On Lippa you can hear
the sound of a Norwegian harp by Björgulv Straume. He uses metal from
wrecked bombers of WW II to his instruments.
..........................................................
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi
website of our band:
www.ihtiriekko.net
(updates coming soon)
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Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:02:48 -0800
From: "Meador, John" <john.meador _at_ unistudios.com>
Subject: [HG] Herdy Gerdy or Hurdy Gurdy
To list members:
A small diversion away from the drone of string chat...
A new game is available for PS/2 and the XBOX , and it is named "Herdy Gerdy".
I don't know if the game features "Hurdy Gurdy" music as part of the gaming music.
If interested , you can check out the web site listed below for a download
of scenes from the game.
The game involves Gerdy whose mission is to "herd" many different animals
into their respective pens.
http://www.eidosinteractive.com/games/info.html?gmid=108
John Meador
UMVD Category Management
John.Meador _at_ unistudios.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:20:02 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz?
<adequately explains to a first-time observer>
<Please answer in great number>
Hello Henry,
A nicely cryptic entry, but seven words:
~Fiddle, however bow is a rosined wheel.~
What is the prize for the winner of the quiz?
A hurdy gurdy?
Just kidding, but your first quiz seemed fun.
I am inadequate to answer that one (those questions.)
Some more hurdy-gurdy trivia?
Complete the following poem or lyric:
Said cabbage to fish cake
that sat on one dish,
"I beautiful cabbage
you only poor ______ ."
......................
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:37:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz?
--- Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> wrote:
>[Yesterday I had someone convinced the handle powered
a fan blowing air through a set of pipes!]
I wondered where that rumour started, I occaisionally
get questions about where the air intake is. <g>
Roy Trotter
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:11:56 -0300 (ART)
From: marcos kaiser mori <kaisermori _at_ yahoo.com.br>
Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz...
--- Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> escreveu: >
> .... so , is the bridge of a tékéro always made
> of maple ?
>
Absolutely not. They use any kind of material. As you
said, there are no borders. Barsonyi even made it from
pear.
Marcos
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:42:47 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz?
Ok then, who's going to build the first automatic Aeolian harp from this
idea
Colin?
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:23:50 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] hurdy-gurdies for sale
Some photos of the hurdy-gurdies are at the following address:
http://www.geocities.com/fvgves/hurdygurdies.html
Contact me if you require any additional information
Best regards
Nicholas O'Sullivan
E-mail: nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie
Telephone: + 353 (0) 71 49405
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:54:33 -0000
From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hello Henry,
I have a Dewit hurdy gurdy, which I bought second-hand. It is by a Dutch
maker called Frits Van Het Hoofd. Made in sycamore, it is very angular, no
curves at all, trapezoid shaped. It was originally in C/G with a high G
trompette, but I have re-strung it to play in D/G. Does this sound like the
one you have plans for? I don't have any information about it at all and
would be interested to know the origin of the design. Grateful to share any
information you might have,
Carol Jones.
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:19:25 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Draailier ,
Believe it or not ,dear friends , there are still some areas that are
hard to reach , even in the internet age <g>
There are very few mentions of the flemish HG around , here is
what I found and a fair amount of personnal speculations.
The book " Making musical instruments " ( see bibliography in the
Olympia w-site ) show some drawing of templates to make a HG ,
the finished instrument on the photo was made by Herman Dewit
( old 33 rpm covers show both spelling : " Dewit " and "de Wit " )
Mr Dewit is the leader of the band " 'T Klieske " ( 'T is the
Vlaamse
equivalent of the Neederlandse " Het " , so 'T Klieske means " Het
Klieske " " The Small Band " , already you feel that research
will be fun .... )
wich is a folk band created somewhere in the '70 in the good years of
the
European folk revival . He is also an instrument maker , singer , event
organiser
and probably also museum curator . The band is composed of his wife
Rosita Tahon Dewit , Oswald Tahon ( hehien " arrangement is an hybrid
French/ Hungarian design , the crank
side show influence of the three lobes found in Henry III and de la Tour
styles .
I spoke with Mr Dewit once but is was in the middle of a busy event,
so I got very litle info. From what I understand the design in the book
wich is also the type of instrument pictured in the CD covers , is a
synthesis of many old instruments found in the Netherlandse speaking
country . This style of HG seems to by unknown outside of Belgium ,
to bad since it is a very clever design . To hear it either find a CD
of 'T Klieske or this one,
http://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/album/album.html
( thanks for the publicity for my friend Nicolas who BTW also plays
with the band MontCorbier , the new band of Daniel Thonon )
I met Mr. Het Hoofd in St Chartier ,( his english is not better than
mine )
I think he told me that he had some kind of arrangement to build
instruments
of the Dewit design , wich seems strange since the design is presented
in a book about instrument making , with dimensions and templates , I
probably missed something in the conversation.
There was another Belgian maker in the Walloon part , Jacques
Feitweiss,
who did the same type of research and ended with a somewhat similar
instrument , with curved sides , in Wallon it is called a " tiess d'y
djvas " , tête de cheval in french , horse head in english .. He did a
booklet about it ( see Olympia
w-site ) and recorded a 33 rpm with the band " Zunants Planquets "
( droning or buzzying companions , in Walloon ) where the bagpipe
maker Remy Dubois also played . Mr Feitweiss died since .
So this is all I know about these instruments , if someone can correct
the informations I gave or add to it , please do .
Off the soap box now ,
Henry
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:25:55 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Error ,
This link should work
http://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/groupe.htm
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:31:56 -0000
From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Draailier ,
Thanks very much - at least I have a starting point now!
Carol
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:10:57 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Draailier ,
Hello,
here is a list of pictures in "Die Drehleier - ihr Bau und ihre
Geschichte" by Marianne Bröcker, 1973 Verlag für systematische
Musikwissenschaft (acctual edition 1997; in german); in the text of the
following pictures it is said that they are "flemish" or from belgium or
the netherlands:
33, 38, 39,59, 62 (*the* Bosch),95, 148, 150, 214, 215, 216, 218, 228,
235 (mainly historical pictures).
This book can be found in librarys such as http://catalog.loc.gov/
it is nearly thirty years old but still a very good starting point for
HG related research. Even if one does not understand german, with its
331 pictures, 60 musical examples, its bibligraphy, index of musical
sources is still worth the effort to get hold of it.
--
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:25:18 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Draailier ,
Hi Henry,
Can you recommend a particular t' Kliekske cd for Flemish HG
regards
Nicholas O'Sullivan
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:59:39 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Bauernleier,
Here is a German maker who makes instruments similar to
flemish HG :http://www.saitenklang.de/
Since I do not understand German , I do not know if they
are copies of old traditional instruments or modern designs ?
Henry
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Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:31:10 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: AW: [HG] Bauernleier,
Hi Henry,
"Bauer" means farmer or peasant, "Leier" is a short name of Hurdy Gurdy.
That means normally that they are just simple instruments. On the site I
can´t find any further information about the instruments, but I don´t think
they´re really copies of historic or traditional HGs.
all the best
Petra
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:32:54 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Bonjour Luc ,
Bonjour Luc ,
Happy to see you on this forum , I think you are the first Belgian
here .
Henry
St Lambert , Québec
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Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:12:16 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Bauernleier,
Hello,
Henry Boucher:
> Here is a German maker who makes instruments similar to
> flemish HG :http://www.saitenklang.de/
> Since I do not understand German , I do not know if they
> are copies of old traditional instruments or modern designs ?
as far as I can overview it, it is nearly impossible to say if a hurdy
gurdy shape design is old, traditional, modern or whether it is from
this or that region of europe. Especially not in a solution that allows
to part historical pesant instruments by region. There is nearly no form
that has not been built in more than one region during the last
centuries and even forms which seem to be very "modern" can be found in
historical examples.
The only shapes that are maybe regionally attributable are central
french lute-backs and perhaps ukrainian violin shapes.
All further regionalities are not really shape related but in technical
details, and again regionality vanishes if one overlooks long periods of
history. technical developements spread out over europe and at different
times one finds similar attributes at different regions.
Also do not forget that the political/cultural regions of europe today
are not what they where one, two, three or more centuries ago. And that
"nation", the idea of a relation between language, culture and
administrative unit are quite a new phenomenon.
By the way have you ever asked yourself if irish music is truthfully
irish since it is played on italian design violins and mandolins, greek
bouzukis, french flutes, spanish guitars, viennese accordeons ...
I belive that musicans never ever cared about the nationality of their
instruments (exept nationalist ones). Musicans play/ed what was/is
available on the market and what was/is fitting to their musical needs.
cheers,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:47:03 +0100
From: Pieter Lambrechts <pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be>
Subject: Re: [HG] Bonjour Luc ,
Henry,
not exactly. There's at least two more (including me)
cheers
Pieter
Leuven, Belgium
At 22:32 15/02/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> Bonjour Luc ,
>
> Happy to see you on this forum , I think you are the first Belgian
>here .
>
> Henry
>St Lambert , Québec
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Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:10:40 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Cor
Hi Carol
The early version of the Dewitt planns, Henry is writing about, are the
plans of the "huismuziekdraailier".
It is the plan for a "not too hard to make" HG for an amateur luthiers
organisation. There goes a book with the plans.
Since these plans were released (1980) many improvements have been
suggested. The tail peace and the "chien"system, for instance. I have seen
and heard some of these Hurdy gurdy's and I'm afraid not so many sound or
function well.
Frits van het Hoofd made a few almost similar hurdy gurdy's but improved
them, and they are ok.
Apart from these and his own modells, he also made Dewitt Hurdy Gurdy's
similar as described in the book by Botermans, Dewitt and Goddefroy:
"Muziekinstrumenten zelf maken en bespelen".He had an agreement with Herman
Dewitt about making them.
Frits is the only professional Dutch HG luthier and his own modells and
design are great. They look very modern, sound great and are superbly
finished.
I wonder which modell you play on,
Cor Westbroek
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:49:33 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] Bauernleier,
Hello Henry,
you'll find an illustration of a Bauernleier from 1619 on my website
www.gotschy.com under history. Michael Praetoris listet all known insrument
at his time in his book "Syntagma Musicum". Hurdy gurdies were not very
highly respected at this time in Europe, the instruments were mostly played
at dancings on the countryside an by begging people. The quality was
expected to be low as good instruments always had their price - as today.
On my reconstruction I fitted the gurdy in a frech style of strings (6) a
trumpet an a full range keyboard (2 octacees), You can see the
reconstruction after the Praetorius illustration in my catalog.
Greetings
Helmut
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:00:32 +0100
From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
If there is anyone interested in flemish hg's or model Dewit ,please let me
now.I made one ,have the complete book on making them ,the plans etc...
I live in Belgium and it is rather easy to contact Mr Dewit.
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:08:11 -0000
From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor
My Gurdy looks pretty much the same as the one being played by Nicolas
Boulerice at htp://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/groupe.htm. Mine is much
plainer, though being made in light wood all over, and having S shaped sound
holes. It has a neat little gadget for adjusting the position of the chien,
which is useful. I am still a beginner, but I use it for a variety of
music. I take it to French sessions, and also play a variety of Medieval
and Renaissance music on it. I always explain to people that it is a modern
instrument, not a historical copy, but all I really know about it is that it
is Flemish!
Carol.
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:17:54 -0000
From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music,
I am the proud owner of ONE flemish CD - by Ambrozijn (website
http://www.wildboarmusic.com/ambrozijn/index.html including some nice gurdy
playing on a couple of tracks, by guest musician Patrick Bouffard (?probably
not a flemish gurdy?).
Carol
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:50:42 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Folklore ahead !
This forum is getting very lively , I like that .
I just wanted to set some definition of was is considered "traditional
"
because that word covers a lot of ground .
As I said , it is the apparition of railways in many countries got
city people to travel in their own countries and discover the peasant
music , this added to the wave of nationalism that swept the world at
the time .
( 34 countries obtained their independance in Europe and South America
from 1820 to 1860 , Québec , in 1837 , was one of the very few that
failed )
Some wise people decided to collect those traditional arts to protect
them , but
in the process also installed some arbitrary limits .
For exemple in France , the bombarde and biniou were set as Brittany's
" local instruments " leaving the East Brittany hurdy gurdy tradition
as some
kind of external pollution , same thinStill I am disapointed when I see
a musician presenting a modern
chromatic Swayne pipe as a medieval instrument <g>
Henry
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:45:24 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music,
Hi Carol,
Can you list the songs Patrick Bouffard plays hurdy gurdy on?
Thank you.
Jake Conte
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:52:46 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Flemish music,
How nice to see these informations coming out , Flemish music
is kept like a secret , wich is a very bad thing since many people
would enjoy it if they ever got the occasion to hear it .
Part of the problem is the words of the songs , some people
seem tho think that one has to understand every word to enjoy
the tune , if it was the case the Brasilian composers would never
had known the success they have around the world .
Personnally I like the sound of Flemish when sung , it follows
the music very well .
I went to my CD stock , I do not have all 't Klieske CDs but
from what I have :
" de Zavel-Boom " - ( Eufoda 1131 ) and
" in 't Staminee" - ( Eufoda 1150 ) are my favorites ,
Also from Belgium : The group " Kadril" , I think they have a w-site
,
" de Vogel in de muite " ( Dureco 1154782)
the HG is played by Hans Quaghebeur .
and some more fantastic music from the group " Klakkebusse"
where the HG is played by Philip Fourier ( Iep ) .
" den Wind is west " ( Tune Records 860116 )
A good mix of early music and modern stuff .
Is it possible to know if Mr Dewit would allow other
makers to use his HG plans ?
One Flemish tune was recorded by Blowzabella :
" Jan mijne man " , on the Vanilla CD ,
I found that there were words to it :
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/R.Hiddinga/kids/mijneman.htm
but Babel fish does not translate Dutch ,
Would it be possible to know what the song is about ?
Henry
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:46:47 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music,
Jan mijne man
Roughly translated it goes:
Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh,
Jan, my man had no horse
So he took the cat
and pulled it's tail
Then Jan, my man had a horse
Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh,
Jan, my man had no whip
So he took his pants
and pulled off a strip
Then Jan, my man had a whip
Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh,
Jan, my man had no hall
So he took an egg
and took off the shell
Then jan, my man had a hall
There is another Flemish tune on the first Blowzabella CD
Juan
> One Flemish tune was recorded by Blowzabella :
>" Jan mijne man " , on the Vanilla CD ,
>I found that there were words to it :
>http://web.inter.nl.net/users/R.Hiddinga/kids/mijneman.htm
>but Babel fish does not translate Dutch ,
>Would it be possible to know what the song is about ?
>
>Henry
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:55:31 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music correction
> Jan mijne man
>
>Roughly translated it goes:
>
>
>Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh,
Which should of course read 'knight'
Well, I said it was a rough translation.
Juan
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:12:10 -0700
From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music,
They just don't write songs like that anymore :)
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:52:40 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Interesting web page about Blowzabella
Here is a link to an interesting web site about Blowzabella.
It is from Dave Sheppard's web site.
http://mysite.freeserve.com/davshepfiddle/Blowzabella.htm
He also has an interesting list of links at:
http://mysite.freeserve.com/davshepfiddle/links.htm
r.t.
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:59:53 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Jan mijne man ,
So it is a children song !
By the way it is played I would have never guessed .
Wich Blowzabella CD is the first one ?
Wich tune is the Flemish one ?
Henry
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Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:57:14 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Jan mijne man ,
Yes, it's one of those stories that plays havoc with your sense of proportions.
It's a lot more charming, but still as nonsensical, when the words rhyme.
I am failing , however to fit these lyrics to the Blowzabella tune, perhaps
there are more than one tune with the same name,
If my memory serves me right, the Flemish tune on the first album, called
Blowzabella, is called 'Kolomdans'.
Juan
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:47:34 +0100
From: "Allemeersch Luc, DELIGHT" <luc.allemeersch _at_ delight.be>
Subject: RE: [HG] Bonjour Luc ,
One more from Belgium.
I joined the list in february 2001.
Best Regards,
_Luc
living in Brugge
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:05:01 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
Hello,
Henry Boucher:
> This forum is getting very lively , I like that .
> I just wanted to set some definition of was is considered "traditional
> " because that word covers a lot of ground .
> (...)
> Some wise people decided to collect those traditional arts to protect
> them , but in the process also installed some arbitrary limits .
> For exemple in France , the bombarde and biniou were set as Brittany's
> " local instruments " leaving the East Brittany hurdy gurdy tradition
> as some (...) The story repeats in numerous countries , (...)
> Fortunately, enough material survived for new collectors to find, this
> added to whatever was created since compose a very rich repertoire .
> My point is not to set people and music in close little boxes but just
> to give to Cesar what belongs to him.
I think I get your point. The admiration of the rich traditional
heritage is common ground.
My intention was to point at one of the "arbitrary limits" of the work
of music historians and music collectors during the last one an a half
century in europe: sometimes in full awareness often just beeing soaked
in common ideological background a lot of nationalist ideology
influenced the reception of popular music by music scientists.
As you pointed out was the case with "local instruments" and in many
cases with "local repertoire". Music scientists concentrated on finding
special "local forms" and sorted out what they called, and still call !
"alien influence": the evidence for the very lively exchange of and
mutual influence on the traditional heritage through all europe.
If one does open minded research on its local tradition soon there will
be evidence, that its acctual appearance is not much older than a mans
lifespan. Things that are claimed to be at least hundreds of years
unchanged emerge to be reestablished somewhen after they died out or are
reimported from abroad. Or are quite recent *and* from abroad all
together as are most instruments of todays traditional music.
Many compositions in the Massiv Central tune book are from living
musicans or by musicans who lived in the 20th century and this is no
special case.
It must be like that sice neither the schottische nor the polka or the
mazurka and the walz appeared on the dancefloors much earlier than mid
nineteenth century.
> Still I am disapointed when I see a musician presenting a modern
> chromatic Swayne pipe as a medieval instrument <g>
Again I agree in you disappointment. But to me most of the problem is on
the side of the audience and the event organizers:
*No* music instrument from medieval times survived till today, exept a
small number recorders. So, all our knowledge is from pictures,
sculptures, and writing about music( the value of this kind of sources
can be seen by trying to reconstruct a recent instrument from a recent
picture like "Purple Hurdy Gurdy"). And again from the music historians
(ideologically soaked) idea that some medieval music survived in
*geographically challanged* ;-) parts of europe as part of traditional
music.
But the auduience demands for *real medieval* music and poor musicians
fullfill this demand. This demand is silly and caused by ignorance, but
a fact.
Effectively why should it be more *medieval* to play a so called
*authentic reconstruction* of something we do not know, eventually even
built by the same maker as the modern instrument ? Just supplemented
with some fur, leather and a bit of rustiqueness. In fact its pure
ideology to belive that medieval instruments were bad. There is no
evidence that medieval pipes coulds not play chromatic notes.
Renaissance recorders for example have a bigger range than baroque ones
have.
Last but not least: even if the musicians *could* manage to reconstruct
medieval music and even reconstruct all circumstances of performance, by
avoiding social insurance, medical system and contact with electronic
media and even by avoiding the use of electricity and modern
transportation at all, the audience will never be able to listen to the
outcome of this procedure propperly: Todays audience is definitely not
medieval, at least its understanding of scales, thirds and chords is
surely not authentic: what may sound "authentic" will surely not have
the "authentic" perception by the audience.
"Authentic perception" may if anyhow only be reached by adapting the
musical action to recent audience.
cheers,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:37:37 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
This is a HUGE problem in the presentation of historical opera. The old
serial or numbers operas are almost never performed now, and when they
are audiences just don't get them. Even those by prominent composers like
Handel are aesthetically so different from modern opera that we just
don't know what to make of them. (Not to mention the lack of castrati
with their vocal qualities and unusual physical appearance -- they tended
to be quite tall and tower over other performers and had a woman's voice
with a man's vocal power. Even counter-tenors today don't even approach
this in an entirely acceptable manner.)
On another note, the mere fact that people go to medieval reconstructions
expecting to sit and listen to the music as they would a modern
performance shows a very different aesthetic approach to the music from
what any medieval attendee likely would have had. The idea of listening
to music for music's sake seems to be very much a product of the 19th
century. So we have a modern audience listening to medieval-esque music
in a modern manner (with half the audience dressed up in what they think
medieval clothing was like). Hmmm. Talk about an artificial context for
the music. This is not to say it's bad, but that people who attend these
things and think they are experiencing medieval life usually don't have a
clue that they are nowhere near it.
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:07:17 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
This is very, very interesting. I think we do forget that actual surviving
medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent.
Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The
chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that
can be purchased today (concertinas come to mind) that date back 100 years
or so are not in today's "concert" pitch. Many so-called "folk" instruments
are played in many different modes and this needs to be taken into account
when reconstruction is attempted.
We really know so little about the sounds they made that even
reconstructions are little more than educated guesswork. I have a series of
records by the late David Munrow featuring the sounds of dozens of early
instruments - all of course, reconstructions.
The point I am trying to make (probably not too well) is that all medieval
and early instruments are an attempt to reconstruct what they may have been
like drawing on relics, reeds found in tombs and written descriptions etc.
Likewise, much music from earlier times has evolved into today's tunes. The
19th century tunes referred to may have had much earlier origins. I liked
the last point regarding the audience perception of "original" playing.
Today, it would probably be regarded as out of tune noise as Shakespeare, in
it's original Elizabethan English, would be unintelligible to the listener.
The words are the same but the pronunciation would have been different. It
still stands out as the work of a great playwright!
Thanks for the interesting points made. Most enjoyable and food for thought!
Colin Hill
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:55:18 +0100
From: Pierre Amadio <pierre.amadio _at_ libertysurf.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
Hello
> medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent.
> Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The
> chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that
Strange. I remember having a quick read on a yahoo's news some months
(years ?) ago. The news told that archeologist had found some real old
flute (whistle ?) that where played by neanderthalien guys.
The news says that the longuest one had holes in it so it sounds
like a modern flute, ie the note used where the same as in our
modern whistle.
I am no historian, neither musician, so i m not sur this is real
news or not.
But the idea that note are a discrimanative perception process based
on something that is hardwired in our brain sounds for me not so stupid.
Something to do with the chochlea and a fourrier transofrmation i guess
:)
Anybody with real musican/ethnology/history/neuro physiology knowledge
here ?
Pierre Amadio
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:01:45 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] medieval modes and madness...
Dear Simon et al,
> The very basic of intonation is physics and can be expressed in its
> language the mathematics so in a very basic meaning, yes it is possible
> to link music to pyhysiological perception.
> But there is no need for hardwiring it to the brain:
> In this special case the physics of oscillating air do the job: some
> frequence proportions react special, those represented by small whole
> numbers.
> Intonation *is* the description of the rules with wich (musical) sounds
> are hardwired to all nature.
Yes, quite true. What is interesting here is how and why some musical-cultures
seem to prefer intervals clearly outside of the harmonies implied by the
harmonic series of, say up to the 5-limit (Partch term). Bulgaria and indonesia
come to mind at the moment. Clearly we must also differentiate amongst scales
used in a linear, strictly monophonic style (no drone even), monophonic with
drone, and chordal/harmonic (for our purposes, even with a moving drone a la
cantus firmus or hardanger fiddle playing). These different ways of using a
scale imply VERY different sound-worlds that are usually overlooked by
musicologists analyzing scalar systems.
Of course the g major scale (just or equal or what ever), for example has the
interval of a minor second within it. Is it a scalar interval only? A passing
dissonance? An expression of the 17th harmonic? An expression of the 16/15
interval in a just scale? Or can we accept that the minor second can be
appreciated as a sonorous interval without the need to apologize for it?
Musicologists who chose to deal with only the equal tempered scale or only the
just scale in the analysis of music do the musical culture a disservice.
My point is (if I have one!) that some exploration of what we can guess about
the 'medieval' musical aesthetic should perhaps allow dissonance into the
picture. Given all that was posted recently about medieval performance
practice, I propose my definition of it as a 20th century form. All hail saint
Binkley (and his acolytes, of course...). Which does not diminish it in the
least! And without a doubt, medieval music (in it's day) was NOT all about
Boethius, Pythagoras and Augustine. There must have been some flesh too!
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:03:43 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] medieval modes and madness...
Of course, I forgot to sign my silly message:
Best regards to all,
ben
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:28:10 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
The analysis of that artifact was quite controversial, with some
claiming it was a flute and others arguing it was merely a bone with
tooth punctures in it. I think the consensus was that it was a flute.
The artifact itself was incomplete, but based on what was there the
archaeologists and musicologists concluded that it likely had a
diatonic scale. What that means though is not necessarily that it had
a modern diatonic scale. Diatonic scales have a very long history,
but the modern evenly tempered scale took a long time to develop.
Older scales, like Pythagorian, can sound very strange and "off" to
modern listeners in some contexts.
It is not so strange to think that a diatonic scale would come up
naturally. The acoustics of open and closed tubes will get you
various diatonic scales when overblown. There is a Csango Hungarian
instrument, the tilinko, which is a holeless long flute. Its scale is
formed by overblowing the instrument with one finger either closing
or opening the end of the tube, shifting the harmonic series
available. At one point doing this you end up with a diatonic scale
from C to C (in the most common tuning) with the fourth sharped and
the seventh flatted. Granted, it's not our modern diatonic major
scale, but it is one possible diatonic scale that arises quite nicely
from the physical properties of tubes.
Similarly the human vocal tract in "throat-singing" reaches a point
where it produces a very similar sequence (in throat singing some of
these notes are not used, leaving a pentatonic system).
But remember that these scales, although called by familiar names,
can, in fact, sound quite foreign to modern listeners because the
inter-pitch relationships will not line up with modern ones.
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:41:18 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] hungarian HG
Hello Arle!
is there a site about Hungarian HG? or do u know easy hg music that one can
purchase? I'd like to know more about it? Also is it possible to play it on
a baroque French HG?
Kosonom szepen!
(sorry about thelack of accents)
Ginny (Regina Marton)
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:41:19 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Folklore ahead !
Hi Henri!
I could not agree more on ur post, but can u pls explain more about Israel
creating Klezmer music?? I always read that Klezmer is from Jewish eastern
european tradition.
As of Hungarian heritage I would find hard to swallow that Austrian Heritage
would be considered as Hugarian... what about the Turks then?? :0)
Ginny
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Klezmer music , instead creating this "Jazz-Folk " thing as their
official folklore.
South Africa bought a complete set of traditional sounding dance music
with
choreographies from a German composer in the early XXth cent , adopting
it as
official folklore . Hungary choose the Magyar style over the Balkanic
and Autrian heritage , etc etc.
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:55:29 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !
Hello,
Colin Hill:
> Likewise, much music from earlier times has evolved into today's tunes. The
> 19th century tunes referred to may have had much earlier origins.
this is not as sure as you might think. This idea of a longlasting
tradition which contains bits of medieval (or even older) music is part
of this ideology of *national* heritage to. Certainly there are things
that come with the culture/social surrounding we are growing up and
living in, but the question is if they are as unchanging as it is said.
A musicologist once told me an example:
there are recordings on edison-phonographs made in the nineteen-twenties
from an old swiss man doing some jodeling, and for decades musicologists
saw it as evidence for the survival of pre gregorian chant in his remote
mountain area.
Since an analyse of the melody led to the conclusion that what the man
sung was acctually a slow version of a schottische which was popular in
swizzerland in the eighteensixties.
So changes may happen much faster than expexcted.
Here in Austria, this is the part of the world I know about, it is
common sense regarding the history of popular (dance) music that since
mid eighteenth century at least four to five different consecutive forms
of music and dance have followed each other: dronbased with HG and
bagpipes (conic doubble-reeded in the older sources replaced by
cylindric single-reeded later on) , followed by violin-music of the
laendler-style, followed by the Schottisch/Walzer/Polka style the
violins getting replaced by clarinettes, accordeons, brass instruments,
and ongoing today the style which was created in the fitfties by a
movement to preserve "authentic" folk-music (under hard pressure from
those who never cared for authenticity and now make "modern" pop-ular
dance music (from "schuerzenjaeger" to "DJ Oetzi")).
cheers,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:54:04 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! now nearly OT
Hello,
Ginny Spindler:
> As of Hungarian heritage I would find hard to swallow that Austrian Heritage
> would be considered as Hugarian... what about the Turks then?? :0)
Do not forget that until recently ;-) (1918) Austria and Hungary formed
a common empire (for centuries). Besides the hungarian language which is
a special case the cultural exchange with the european neighbours also
happened in Hungary. Theirercent of the german population are of turkish origin. The
islam is the second largest religious comunity in Austria (about 10%) -
only the catholic church has more members.
Sorry, I've no statistical numbers for Hungary.
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:59:46 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Thomas
Hi everyone!
Here the link to the neadertal-flute:
http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/FL-COMPL.HTM
;-)) Thomas
_____________________________
AMSA
Alte Musik Salzburg Austria
http://www.altemusik.net/index.html
eMail: thomas _at_ altemusik.net
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:01:51 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Folklore ahead ! now nearly OT
Oh yes absolutely!!! I guess that i was trying to say was that the reasons
why people want to classify is sometimes an attempt to readopt a cultural?
nationalistic? identity lost? for political reasons.I personally do not
intend to add this option to my agenda. Half of my grandparents were born in
Transylvania (Kolosvar, Klug) (they became apatrid after Versailles treatee
and decided to leave for France where they still were apatrid in 43 when the
French governemnent decided to sell them to the camps)and the other half
near Budapest, as of the other half they are brittons and bergian. I grew
iup in the red belt near Paris where I learnt bribes of Spanish. Yidish,
Arabic, Hungarian, Rom Italian what have you!
Going to hungarian parties with my family and bal musette gave me the love
of bals, Irish Set Dance, balkanic dance and singing and now HG soon i hope
now..
Servus!!
Ginny
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:10:16 +0000
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folk. ahead ,
Just to clarify, as I understand Henry's original post, his meaning was that
adopted Israeli tradition was not based on Klezmer music, which is in fact, as
Ginny asked, East European in origin. Am I correct in this interpretation,
Henry?
Beverly Woods
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:34:12 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: OT: Neanderthal flute [Was Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !]
Hello,
> > medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent.
> > Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The
> > chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that
Pierre Amadio:
> Strange. I remember having a quick read on a yahoo's news some months
> (years ?) ago. The news told that archeologist had found some real old
> flute (whistle ?) that where played by neanderthalien guys.
hm. At least the text supplied with the picture of the neanderthal music
instrument we got from Thomas (thanks) does - in my opinionn - mainly
show that its author is not a real pro about intonation:
"and will sound like a near-perfect fit within ANY kind of standard
diatonic scale, modern or
antique"
I confess, this made me laugh. Sounds more like HOT shopping channel
than like scientific information.
Arle made the point about scales before.
My tip:
forget the text, enjoy the picture.
> But the idea that note are a discrimanative perception process based
> on something that is hardwired in our brain sounds for me not so stupid.
> Something to do with the chochlea and a fourrier transofrmation i guess
The very basic of intonation is physics and can be expressed in its
language the mathematics so in a very basic meaning, yes it is possible
to link music to pyhysiological perception.
But there is no need for hardwiring it to the brain:
In this special case the physics of oscillating air do the job: some
frequence proportions react special, those represented by small whole
numbers.
Intonation *is* the description of the rules with wich (musical) sounds
are hardwired to all nature.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:06:11 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG
Ginny,
I don't know of any specific good sites. I have a very limited bit of
information on-line at http://www.ttt.org/tekero/. That includes some
music for tekerõ. While you could play some tekerõ tunes on a French
HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string
of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave
down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is
actually E. This means that some tekerõ tunes could not be easily
played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the
tonic.
The dog also is quite different. The Hungarian one is considerably
more strident and percussive in effect, and the handle is a different
length giving different possibilities with the dog.
One nice thing about the tekerõ, if you have sources in Hungary, is
that citera (zither) music is traditionally very similar to tekerõ
music, so the majority of citera songs can be adapted with little or
no modification for the tekerõ. Citera music is readily available in
Hungary at many music stores (ProFolk would certainly have it if no
one else does).
Take a look at the little bit I have posted and let me know if you
have any other questions.
Sok szerencsét!
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:07:52 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG
Hello Ginny,
arle lommel:
> HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string
> of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave
> down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is
> actually E. This means that some tekero tunes could not be easily
> played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the
> tonic.
On a french D instrument there are usually six strings tuned to
drones:
D
d
mouche:
d
trompette:
d'
chanter:
d'
d''
to get a setting similar to the tekero just replace the d drone against
a G. Practically nothing gets lost since there is still the mouche for d
and the d-trompette fitts to playing in G (I do not know how french HG
players see this case).By the way, you can see this G tuning as playing
in A at a standard pitch of A=392 Hz :o).
I used a similar setting on a (british made, french style luthback)
D-instrument for playing traditional music from Austria (this problem is
more serious with french bagpipes since it is not so easy to change the
pitch of its drone one fourth).
By the way, there is a book, a kind of tutor for hungarian hurdy gurdy
with some tunes included written by Bela Szerenyi from Budapest. I've
got a copy but its at a friend in the moment, so I cannot supply you
with the details.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:00:04 +0100
From: Pieter Lambrechts <pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be>
Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG
Hi Ginny and Arle,
I have the book by Béla Szerényi you mention.
As far as I know there were two language editions of it, german and french.
I have the french version since the german version was sold out when I was
at the Boldogkavaralja Hurdy Gurdy camp last summer.
The french title is : "Musique traditionelle pour vielle en Hongrie"
(Traditional Hurdy-Gurdy music in Hungary) at has no ISBN or colofon
whatsoever.
The book consists of five chapters.
1. the spreading and the use of the HG in Hungary
2. structure and different parts of Hungarian HG
3. Tuning and Adjusting the Hungarian HG
4. Basic Technique of playing the HG (barking, etc... :)
5. Transcription of traditional tunes based on original recordings
If your looking for hungarian tekerõ music I would recommend the cd:
"Szent Gellert Legendaja" by the Bokros Band (Bokros Zenekar)
Bokros is a band consisting of members from the legendary 'Téka'-band, more
precisely Pal Havasreti (HG player, among various other instruments) and
Gyorgy Lanyi (viola and Duda (bagpipe)), together with Béla Szerényi and
his wife Judit Kota and Mihaly Borbely.
This cd has a lot of Tekerõ on it.
The cd was published by : Periferic Records and distributed by Stereo KFT,
H-1114 Budapest, Bartok Béla Ut 59, Hungary, Phone / Fax : +32 1 385 6343,
+36 1 466 9474 (I don't know which of these is phone or fax), e-mail:
stereoperiferic _at_ mail.datanet.hu
I don't know if it is sold outside of Hungary. But you can always get it at
Béla's booth at St Chartier or the 'Feestival' at Gooik Belgium.
I also own a CD with field recordings of tekerõ music, made by Béla Szerényi.
Best regards,
Pieter Lambrechts
Leuven, Belgium
pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:51:59 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Folk. ahead ,
Bonjour Ginny ,
I took my information about Israël in the booklet of the CD
" Klezmer Music from Tel Aviv " by the band " Sulam " ,
" ... the official cultural politics in Israël have promoted an
independent
culture wich does not corrsepond to the exile of the past .... "
In fact , in North America , Montréal and New York for exemple,
the Yiddish language and culture came close to extinction by the end
of the ' 60 , fortunately some people made it available to the rest of
the world and today Klezmer music is enjoyed by all . In Montréal there
are two Klezmer bands composed mostly of Catholic French Canadians .
About Hungary , the life of Bela Bartok is a good exemple , pretty
much the same happened to the group " Kolinda " in the '70 , when they
had to record their albums in Paris because the the Hungarians did not
like the Slavic and Turkish influence in their music .
From more uncertain source ( call it a " field informant " <g>* ) I
heard that
in the " Pest " part of Budapest , existed an accordéon tradition called
" szremly " ( spell .?) that was never recorded because it was
considered
" too German " , I take the occasion to ask our Hungarian contingent
if there is any thruth to it ?
BTW, Ginny , is the red belt of Paris limited to the south part or
does
it goes to the north , namely the porte St Ouen , Jango Reinhart
country ?
Henry
* I heard from honorable source that in modern times , field
recording
is often really " bar recording " but field recording looks better on
request
for grants <g>
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:43:30 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Folk. ahead ,
Have you been listening to English CDs at Daniel's house, Henry?
John Roberts.
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:42:37 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Slippery ground ahead !
Hi Beverly ,
I mentioned that Israël decided not to include Klezmer , in fact there
were
numerous Jewish music traditions to either choose from or ignore .
I leave the detailed analysis to the experts . For my part I choose to
mention Klezmer because I like it very much and I think it would have
been
a terrible thing to loose it .
Henry
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:49:20 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG
Thanks Simon! Ill keep this in my folder !
Ginny
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:49:22 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG
Ok I can try by my relatives in Budapest...who knows??
Ginny
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:09:26 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Folk. ahead ,
Salut Henry!
I think that when Klezmer was mearly extinct in North AMerica, it was still
carried in Europe with Yiddishe theater etc...Nu?
I loved Kolinda's work at that time... it was of course privilieged at that
time with the folk explosion in France (LA vieille Grille for example had
incredible bands all the time, Malicorne, Kolinda, Roger Mason etc..) I dont
know what the band is doing now..Although I have some hungarian books of the
sixties of Bartok and Kodaly compilations , as well as recordings, which
were not " pure magyar"..
The red belt (north of Paris) goes more or less from Saint OUen, Saint
Denis, La courneuve, Bobigny and Drancy etc ...I was born in Drancy near the
old concentration camp, and was bred in Blanc Mesnil..Between Drancy and
Bobigny.
Yes Django is a good representation of the kids born in this fringes,
although by the time I was born Gypsies living in "la Zone" ( "slums" made
mostly of Gypsy carriages)were given cheap housing (HLM). This the era of
l'abbe Pierre and EMMaus. Later the area of the Zone (Drancy) close to wehre
i was living was transformed in lots and schools where I went to.
nevertherless the gypsies who did not fly away to other cities down south
were still pretty much into playing music at night in bars and all. Roms
were much more influencing thanthey are now when Gitanos are thought as
gypsy music ( i like it too!).
Since all of these cities were communists we had access to a lot of things
coming from behind the Iron curtain..
Ginny
Henry
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:09:29 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG
Ok Ill go there too!!!:-)
cokolom!!
Ginny
Ginny,
I don't know of any specific good sites. I have a very limited bit of
information on-line at http://www.ttt.org/tekero/. That includes some
music for tekerõ. While you could play some tekerõ tunes on a French
HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string
of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave
down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is
actually E. This means that some tekerõ tunes could not be easily
played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the
tonic.
The dog also is quite different. The Hungarian one is considerably
more strident and percussive in effect, and the handle is a different
length giving different possibilities with the dog.
One nice thing about the tekerõ, if you have sources in Hungary, is
that citera (zither) music is traditionally very similar to tekerõ
music, so the majority of citera songs can be adapted with little or
no modification for the tekerõ. Citera music is readily available in
Hungary at many music stores (ProFolk would certainly have it if no
one else does).
Take a look at the little bit I have posted and let me know if you
have any other questions.
Sok szerencsét!
-Arle
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:31:20 -0800
From: W. Jason Naylor <pan _at_ dreamerdesign.com>
Subject: [HG] HG's for sale
Hey guys. I was in Maui when these notices came through:
>Lute-backed hurdy-gurdy currently in Bourbonnais tuning by Paul Doyle 1984
>after the Pajot in the V&A
>...
>
>Guitar shaped hurdy-gurdy in C/G by Paul Doyle 1994
>Walnut soundboard back and sides maple pegbox and tailpiece with ziracote
>...
>
>Nicholas O'Sullivan
-and-
>Hello,
>I noticed that there is a nice looking French luteback
>hurdy gurdy for sale on ebay. The builder is Maxime
>Boireaud. The seller is in the UK. You can view the
>site at:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1512160739
>
>
>Keep cranking and droning,
>David Smith
-and finally-
>Some photos of the hurdy-gurdies are at the following address:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/fvgves/hurdygurdies.html
>
>Nicholas O'Sullivan
What do you guys think of these instruments for a beginning student? Thanks
so much for your input.
Peace
Jason
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:42:44 -0800
From: W. Jason Naylor <pan _at_ dreamerdesign.com>
Subject: [HG] Apologies
I meant to send the previous message to duodrone, not the entire list.
Sorry about that. Now I suppose I ought to introduce myself.
I am a writer/musician/producer living in Southern California. I have
always enjoyed hurdy-gurdies and the musics associated with them, and got
seriously bitten by the bug this last year at the Topanga Banjo and Fiddle
Contest. Since then I have been lurking on the list watching for good
beginner instruments, and it seems like Mr. O'Sullivan's lute-back might be
just right.
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:27:25 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG
Is there a term: Gurdyologist?
May I suggest it.
Meaning: someone who has the passion of knowing the historical forms of the
instrument.
With Hungarian hurdy-gurdy music,
I wish to offer this information as a possiblity.
PassOn Music (in England.)
Ian is just great. He has a nice policy for payment, I think that cash
in a package can be acceptable, but ask him. I know; I know. But that is
only for the rare person without a credit card.
He has a very, very good inventory of
Hungarian recorded music, everything in stock, and his turn around time for
filling the order there is one
day. Mailing has only been one week each way. I was very pleased.
Example;
web link to a very great CD he has:
http://www.passion-music.co.uk/e_pages/hung_e/bgcd_083.htm
address: PassiOn Music
37 Lion Lane
Overton RG25 3HH
England/ UK
Europe
..............
t: ++ 44 1256 770747
f: ++ 44 1256 770747
www.international-records.com
www.passion-music.co.uk
www.passiondiscs.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:29:55 +0100
From: Cor Westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor
Hi Carol,
The instrument of Nicolas Boulerice looks like the one from the "Botermans
cs book".
I'm nor sure because the picture isn' t very clear but it looks like that
one. This chien gadget is indeed very handy. It makes almost every chien fit
right.
I'll tell Frits that his instrument is mentioned in this list. He 'll like
that.
Bye
Cor Westbroek
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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:08:44 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] Folk dance in France
I cant remember who wanted info re folk dancing in Paris Francr?? I just
received the following:
Tuesdays at 20h30 in the 20th, metro Télégraphe. The MJC des Hauts de
Belleville on the rue Borrego has courses with Marie-Odile Chantrain.
happy dancing!
Ginny
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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:08:45 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG
Thanks!!!!
++++++++
Example;
web link to a very great CD he has:
http://www.passion-music.co.uk/e_pages/hung_e/bgcd_083.htm
address: PassiOn Music
37 Lion Lane
Overton RG25 3HH
England/ UK
Europe
..............
t: ++ 44 1256 770747
f: ++ 44 1256 770747
www.international-records.com
www.passion-music.co.uk
www.passiondiscs.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:53:01 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor
Hi Cor ,
The book was used to make the templates for Nicolas 's HG and mine ,
Frits saw it in 1998 at St Chartier and Nicolas say he looked please
at the time, to see somebody else using this design , in 1999 when he
saw mine , he looked woried . This is why I would like to know if there
are copyrights on this design ?
Henry
Cor Westbroek a écrit :
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Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:10:23 +0100
From: Cor Westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor
Hello Henry,
I don't think there's any copyright on the design. It would make no sense
publishing it in a book so that anybody can make these instruments.
As far as I can recall, the agreement between Frits van 't Hoofd and Herman
Dewit was : Herman got orders to make the instruments and Frits actually
made them.
It was something like that. I'll ask him when I see him to be sure.
Bye, Cor.
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:56:41 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Joan
Hi everyone. I recently read this quote on the early music list and thought
it was interesting.
"On my gamba I learned to put on as much string as possible wrapped around
the peg. Then I can feed out string as the bowing area wears."
What would be the result of doing this on the HG? Is the degree of wear to
the string being bowed by the wheel greater than to a string being bowed by
a bow? Is the string itself weakened enough where the tangents push it? Is
the average string used on an HG originally long enough to allow for
"spooling" it out from the peg far enough to make it serve double duty? Is
there enough room in the peg box for the excess string? Any other comments?
Joan
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:52:29 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Beverly Woods
For the real lowdown on this kind of question, you may want to sub**scribe to
the Jewish Music list at shamash.org, and/or read Henry Sapoznik's book on
klezmer.
I am not an expert on the roots of klezmer, having only been substantially
involved in klezmer for a few years, but so far as I understand and have
heard, klezmer is specifically instrumental, and Yiddish theater music bears
little resemblance to klezmer, although many modern klez bands include some
theater repertoire in their performances. But basically I believe Yiddish
theater music bears approximately the same resemblance to kezmer that music
hall "Irish" bears to traditional Irish instrumental music.
Also the European klezmer scene was of course nearly erased by the
Holocaust, and the musicians who survived in the US (many of whom had
emigrated before 1930) were a large part of the survival and revival of the
music, somewhat the reverse of your statement below.
Beverly Woods
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:40 +0200
From: Peteris <stumburs _at_ ihouse.lv>
Subject: [HG] Traditional Russian church music
Hello, list!
There was nice concert in Latvia, Riga, this weekend. Russian orthodox churc
choir from Moscow performed traditonal music, also with HG(for my
surprise!). Later conductor Anatoly Grindenko(also great early music and
baroque performer) explained me - this is really ancient traditition, they
use HG as bourdon.
Peteris
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:44:03 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Traditional Russian church music
That's incredible. Anatoly Grindenko is the most famous person doing that
recreation work of that kind of material.
jim
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Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:49:50 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Traditional Russian church music
Traditional Russian here means Orthodox music.
I know of three CDs that have this style of choral or similar solo music
with the hurdy gurdy.
One from Moscow, and two from the Ukraine.
Also, here is a absolutely great site with pictures and a book.
http://www.brama.com/art/kobzar.html
It is worth a look.
best wishes,
jim
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Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:38:11 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] How do I start?
Dear list,
I've had my HG for about a month now, and frankly, I'm a bit at a loss as to
what to do with it next! Alas, those early visions I entertained during its
construction (instant viruosity, the admiration of all, constant feverish
pleasure, etc.) have been brought abruptly back down to earth. Don't get me
wrong... the instrument is just what I expected, it's me that's the problem!
How do I get myself good at the thing?
Okay, here are my concerns: First, I'm reluctant to practise for fear that
I'll somehow develop bad habits. The Muskett Method just doesn't give me
enough first-hand confidence to proceed boldly. Are there any serious errors
that could conceivably cripple my future playing ability? Also, my lack of
maintenance know-how keeps me constantly on the edge wondering if I'm going
to saw through the strings.
Basically, I suppose the underlying problem is that I've never had any
lessons from a real player. (Should have picked the guitar if I wanted
dime-a-dozen instructors, I guess) It would be foolish to simply leave it in
the corner until I can attend a festival. Should I plunge headlong into my
method and correct any problems later on, or proceed more carefully? This
perfectionism of mine is such a burden! If only I were more free and
artistic... Now that I think about it, another obstacle is the fact that,
unlike the cello, there isn't a one-to-one correlation between written music
and finger position. It's all a continuum, so I can't use any of that
previous music-reading ability!
Anyway... Your advice would certainly be appreciated. Perhaps one day I'll
be able to fulfill something of those lofty expectations. For now, simply
getting myself to start down that path seems an achievement in and of
itself. Sincerely,
Nathan Roy
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:14:52 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Dear Nathan
It could be possible to write "a lot" about this
subject, but I think that is hard to give good advices
by mail (you already got a good method, that is
written the same :o).
These are my suggestion:
1) try to meet other HG players (or try to have a
real "lesson").
One hour together with a good player worths month
together with a good method
2) don't forget the gurdy...if something is wrong it
could be your own fault or your gurdy fault...even the
best instrument can play badly if you're not able to
make a good "maintenance" (that's to say, part of your
first lesson has to be devoted to gurdy setting up).
There are some good books about it.
3) be relaxed....if you got pain somewhere in your
hands shoulders, arms, neck and so on stop playing and
relax.....and then change your position.....
Some stretching can help, expecially at the beginning,
when "tech problems" make you feel stressed about your
playing instead of your body position.
4) don't forget to have fun with your instrument:
sometimes an hour of exercise made in a bad mood
worths less than a badly played tune.
5) realize that it was exactly the same for lot of
good(now) players, the best ones of them never forget
this, and will be happy to help you!
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:47:26 +0000
From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hi Nathan,
Stop worrying! I don't know a lot (been playing only 4 months), but I do
agree with Ciao that you could ease back a bit on the 'oughts' and go a
bit more on the 'fun'. Pick one or two of the funkier Mussett tunes,
shut yourself away from sensitive pets, then do these tunes over and over
again until you find yourself dancing. Worry about debris and smoke
damage only if it happens...
Matthew
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:41:56 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hello Nathan,
Marcello wrote what is neccessary to write. Real Lessons are vital as is
having fun.
Matthew Williams:
> Stop worrying! I don't know a lot (been playing only 4 months), but I
> do agree with Ciao that you could ease back a bit on the 'oughts' and
> go a bit more on the 'fun'. Pick one or two of the funkier Mussett
> tunes, shut yourself away from sensitive pets, then do these tunes
> over and over again until you find yourself dancing. Worry about
> debris and smoke damage only if it happens...
Methods are written the way they are not because the authors belive that
it is enough to pick some funky tunes. Removing the debris is much more
work than learning how to do it right. It needs about the same amount of
time to get rid of a bad technique as you stuck with it. So do not pile
debris for long periods of time. Even if this means that you drive 200
km for a monthly lesson.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:29:24 +0000
From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hallo Simon and Nathan,
Point taken Simon, I know you are right, but it must be a matter of
balance (like starting to ride a bike?).
As a fellow novice I do sympathise with you Nathan. If a fear of
imperfection is stopping you playing at all having got the instrument, I
merely suggest setting aside the worries for a while in order to unlock
the paralysis and get going. Once you can relax a bit while playing (and
get the buzz?), I'm quite sure you're the sort of person who'll be able
to apply the good advice available in the Methods and from any
opportunities for tuition from expert players.
Matthew
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:23:03 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hello,
if one is not an educated musician when beginning to play the hurdy
gurdy ( I do not know if this applies to you) there is one thing that is
probably more important than even hurdy gurdy lessions: basical music
expiriences. So join a local choir, folkdance group, participate in
classes about percussion, dance, singing - no matter if its tango,
gregorian chant, west african drumming or what ever. Nearly everywhere
one can find classes in basic musical education or musicians/music
teachers who can teach the basics about time keeping, counting, rhythm,
intervals and intonation.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:23:00 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Dear Nathan,
Don't be too negative. You have already started. One can be made to think of
the sort of wisdom such as to enjoy the journey and not feel that it is only
about getting somewhere. Where ever there is, but I suppose you have written
about
that in a whimsical way--of being really great, of virtuosity, of
admiration and pleasure with the hurdy gurdy.
You forgot fame and money, perhaps.
I do wish to ask some details. I wish that my asking would not deter anyone
else much more knowledgeable
from writing to you. My humble, mere idle curiosity would be as follows--and
best wishes with everything:
Do you have just the one book?
{I hear that Michael and Doreen Muskett have a new, matching CD for sale
that goes with their book; you'd have to write to them.}
What sort of a hurdy-gurdy did you make?
Where are you located?
What caused you to be interested in this instrument?
What musical experiences do you have so far?
Are you getting family support?
I realize that funny jokes abound about pets and people running for their
lives.
Do you offer any photos such as a personal web page about your instrument?
from,
jim (in maine)
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:03:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hi Nathan,
--- Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> wrote:
>Point taken Simon, I know you are right, but it must
be a matter of balance (like starting to ride a
bike?).
As usual, I completely agree with everybody. I'm not
specifically aware of any formal lessons in the
Americas, (anybody that does is encouraged to step
up...), so festivals and informal meetings might be
your only option for live instruction.
The Muskett book is about as good a method as is
available in English. I'd also recommend Maxou's book
(+tape (I got it from Dusty Strings)) to address the 2
elements that Ms Muskett doesn't really cover:
handling the chien as a percussive accompaniment, &
improvising variations. The worst "bad habit" you are
going to pick up from the Muskett book is the tendancy
to only play one coup per note. That style of playing
is necessary, but you also need to be able to do
other things and it is very difficult to retrain, or
"unweld your hands". There's an extensive discussion
of this problem in the early pages of the list
archives.
As Matthew suggests about balance: do both, learn the
Muskett lessons AND make sure you take some time to
play the tunes with the buzz only on the down beats,
only on the upbeats, setup a
"dum-diddy,dum-diddy,dum-diddy" pattern like the start
of "Rakes of Mallow" or the "Bonanza" theme and play
every 4/4 tune you can think of. &c,&c,&c.
The other "bad habit" to avoid (everybody addresses
this, but you wind up doing it anyway) is "running out
of fingers". Make a habit of setting yourself up for
the next note or two. Good luck.
Don't let maint cow you. You built the thing, didn't
you? Maint is an ongoing quest for perfection, but
it's a snap compared to making a 'gurdy that actually
works. As a cellist, I'd bet you have a good ear for
intonation, that will be valuable keeping the tangents
in tune. Most of the rest has to do with Cotton and
Rosin. You probably *will* need to experience that
part live before it will make any sense. Even having
been shown it, there's still going to be a lot of
experimentation (call it "fiddling", it sounds more
fun) to get the best sound of your particular
instrument. As far as "smoke and debris" goes, most
people give up and recotton or take off some rosin
with a (100% cotton) rag long before the 'gurdy bursts
into flames.... probably because they can't stand the
noise <g>. And please let us know if you cut a string
on the wheel. I haven't figured out how to do that
yet.
One other thing I would encourage you to do is think
of a song that you can sing or whistle all the way
through and find it on the HG in several different
keys. This will get you really familiar with where the
notes are on the keyboard. One of the greatest
feelings there is comes from being able to play an
unrehearsed request in performance. I have noticed
that as my ability to do this improves, the muse
visits me more often with some variations to explore.
This is a lot longer-winded than I'd like and I must
admit that the only thing I'm an expert at is being
alone. I do get the occaisional meeting and find out
what I'm doing wrong, and then concentrate on my newly
discovered weak points until next time. Live contact
is indispensible. IF you can get lessons, do. If you
can't then get serious about meeting. Do whatever you
have to to get to the OTW festival and any local
events. Talk to the Early Music people and the Rene
crowd, they may know somebody. You'll notice that some
parties advertise their travels on the list for this
very purpose. Incidently, I live within 100 miles of
DFW airport (Dallas/Fort Worth). E-mail me if you
think you'll be passing thru.
Sincerely, your foaming-at-the-mouth-gurdymanic,
Roy Trotter
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:53:53 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Nathan, I guess I'm living proof that you can start with a good working
hurdy gurdy and the Muskett book and not end up festooned with bad,
unbreakable habits. My HG odyssey began in 1985 with a volksgurdy that
arrived on my Seattle doorstep sans instructions, so of course the first
thing I did was run my fingers over that lovely, smooth wheel.
Fortunately, the fingers were clean and no damage was done until later that
day, when the phone rang and I jumped up with the gurdy still strapped on
and slammed the headstock into the door frame.
Anyway, the worst problem I developed in those days of solitude was a fear
and confusion surrounding maintenance, particularly getting the cotton
correctly onto the strings so the pitch wouldn't wobble around. It really
isn't that hard, but I lacked a basic understanding of what I was trying to
do so my results were mysteriously, frustratingly inconsistent. If you have
similar problems, and can't find a more experienced player to give you some
in-person help, we on this list could try distilling the info into text for
you. You could also get a copy of the wonderful book by Destrem and
Heidemann ("The Hurdy-Gurdy"), which takes you through cottoning and many
other maintenance procedures, step by step, with photos, in three languages.
Also, I agree with Roy about how hard it is to unhook your hands from one
another after spending too much time playing in the "one coup per note"
style that Muskett presents. It's a great thing to learn, but it shouldn't
be the only way you can play, so I second his suggestion of practicing
alternate coup patterns alongside the Muskett exercises.
What part of the world do you live in? Hurdy-gurdy players are a small but
growing community, and there may be someone closer than you think who can
help you get started. In the Seattle area there are several of us who teach
and/or offer support to beginners. I also travel some; twice a year I
usually spend some time near Augusta, Georgia, and this year I'll be in New
Mexico in April, California (Mendocino) in August, and maybe Michigan (near
Kalamazoo) in July.
Cheers,
Anna Peekstok
+ + + + + + + + + + +
http://www.telynor.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:59:22 -0800
From: Rita Glenn <lady9 _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] How do I start
Hello,
I have been reading the 'How do I start' letters and I must say that I
have had similar thoughts about playing the hurdy gurdy and I don't even
have mine YET. I am having one made and can hardly wait until I get my
hands on it, but I have thought that since the hurdy gurdy is a
relatively 'NEW' instrument in our country for public enjoyment, I am
thinking that music books for this instrument are few and certainly
technique books are also. I have been trying to follow the information
that has been coming e-mail regarding the different technical problems
that the HG musician faces and I know that I will probably have those
problems as well, but it becomes mind boggling and frankly I am having
some
reservations about being able to play the instrument. I have been
playing the piano and related keyboard instruments since I was 4 years
old so do not feel inhibited about that, but I feel that learning the
technique of playing the hurdy gurdy is going to be a challenge and I am
going to need some tutorial help. I live in the Puyallup area. Does
anyone know if there is anyone in my area that plays the HG? In the
mean time, I am waiting and wondering----------
Rita
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:43:44 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] How do I start?
Anna sez:
and this year I'll be in New
Mexico in April, California (Mendocino) in August, and maybe Michigan (near
Kalamazoo) in July.
Judith queries:
Anna, you ARE going to let us Michigan gurdyists know when you are coming
to Michigan, aren't you? We will all be gathered at Evart for the music
festival the second week, and you could be our leader! Or, we will be
delighted
to Mr. and Mrs. Peekstock's front lawn at any date of your choosing...
Judith
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:01:12 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start
Although there are technical issues involved, it isn't that hard, and
many of us learned on our own. While I am not the best tekerõ player
around (far from it in fact) I have taught myself to play reasonably
well and enjoy it. If you let yourself worry about technical
perfection and problems too much then you won't enjoy it. I'm not
saying those things aren't important, but worrying about them all up
front is like learning to play oboe and wanting to know how to
circular breathe on your first piece. What I find is that in practice
the technical difficulties tend to come up as you progress, so you
may read this list now and go "what?" to some of the posts, but after
a year they will make sense and what was once bewildering will be
easy. Then there will be other bewildering things that after another
year will make sense, and so on. But you have fun along the way.
If you have played piano I would say that, if you can get your
instrument set up right by someone who knows what they are doing, you
should be confidently playing simple tunes (no chien or
embellishments) within a few hours, and then it gets fun. Don't worry
if you aren't perfect when you start!
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:44:55 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start
On 2/28/02 11:01 AM, arle lommel wrote:
> If you have played piano I would say that, if you can get your
> instrument set up right by someone who knows what they are doing, you
> should be confidently playing simple tunes (no chien or
> embellishments) within a few hours
Actually, in some really obnoxious cases, the chien comes just as easily and
quickly as the melody does. But I think such people should have the decency
*pretend* to struggle, just so the rest of us don't feel bad!
Anna
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Anna Peekstok
http://www.telynor.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:52:22 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hi Nathan,
I'm in the process of getting my hurdy gurdy built and should have it in
my hands within two months. Your letter sounds like something I'll be
writing after getting mine.
Hope we can both progress and become players.
Jake Conte
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