Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - September 2002
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:31:02 +0000
From: Martijn Dekker <martijn_dekker _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] "The Chimney" Scottisch info request
Hello everyone,
Has anyone got some info on the scottisch "The Chimney" on the cd
"Pandemonium" by Nigel Eaton. Maybe other versions, composer exc.
Greetings,
Martijn
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:10:44 -0400
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] "The Chimney" Scottisch info request
Well, the notes to the CD are at http://www.bejo.co.uk/bejo/html/artEat.htm
and they credit to tune to Eaton, So he wrote it.
Thanks for bringing this CD to my attention. I didn't know of it at
all before your question. Now I'll have to get my favorite music
store to stock it.
JR
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:13:57 -0400
From: Michele JavaTime <michelejavatime _at_ juno.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Szostak gurdy
For those of you who would like to see photos of the gurdy,
Hopefully they are still up at the site. Check out:
http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=42007619303&n=1307821801
I believe that the site "squished" the photos to resize them to fit their
format.
It makes the HG look a little chunky, stout, and out of proportion.
Trust me, the proportions are just fine in real life.
Again, she's truly a work of art!
Michele
Michele McCann
Hurdy-Gurdy Player...Celtic/Cajun/French Musician
DJ on WVUD 91.3 FM 6-9AM Weds. www.wvud.org
National Award Winning Résumé Writer
Certified Job & Career Transition Coach
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:21:43 +0200
From: Xavier AIME - Site "Vielle ŕ Roue" <hg.vielle _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: [HG] Plans
Hi all,
There is in software's world a type wich one calls free : free to copy,
free to use, free to distribute, free to modify (these can cost 0$ !).
Freewares are sometimes of this type.
The demand of hg's plans is moe and more increasing and it's very difficult
to get it. So is it possible to create a collection of hg's plans, free and
for 0$, wich each could download as one pleases. It's not a question of
copying out illegally the works of the hg's makers, but of giving a series
of plans (simple or not). This collection could be completed as one goes
along, on condition naturaly to respect rules of the game.
So it's an idea, what do you think of that ?
Xavier AIME
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:27:01 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] Szostak gurdy
Hello-
it looks as though the page this link connects to says "album not found". any suggestions?
thanks,
Vlad
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:42:44 +0100
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] "The Chimney" Scottisch info request
It's a very enjoyable record. Even my HG hating friend Sarah was caught
playing it. I'd thought of writing a mini review for interest on the list,
but somehow never got around to it...
It's pretty much what you'd expect from Nigel, a sort of Music of the Hurdy
Gurdy vol.11. From memory, there's concerto no. 11 by Corette, in which
the continuo appears to consist of a harpsichord and piano accordeon (it
works rather well), several examples of 'hurdy-gurdy pop', and the remainder
is mostly folky including some cracking jigs and schottisches. The usual
other suspects appear - Andy Cutting, Jon Swayne, Julie Murphy etc.
Review here: http://www.greenmanreview.com/pandemonium.htm
I got my copy from the ADA distribution stall at the Bagpipe Society Blowout
in the UK earlier this year.
Peter.
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 10:20:41 -0700
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Stolen HG
I received this from Asier:
===========
Hello to all:
Here are two photos from a stolen HG. His builder was Ramon Santeiro
(Galicia, Spain).His first owner was my friend Manuel Lousas, it was stolen
in Sevilla (Spain) and perhaps you can help us. If you see it, please say to
Manuel at:
mlousas _at_ yahoo.com
or contact with me (Asier) at: 696-784-934 or asierdbg _at_ hotmail.com
Thanks a lot.
============
The photos are at www.hurdygurdy.com/images/stolen_zanfona.jpg
Thanks for keeping an eye out for this instrument.
Alden
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 19:35:14 +0000
From: Martijn Dekker <martijn_dekker _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] "The Chimney" Scottisch info request
Hello,
I'm afraid that is an error. Eaton only arranged the two songs together for
the cd.
Greetings,
Martijn
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 21:04:06 +0100
From: David <david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] ABC
I use ABC2Win for writing and editing ABC tunes. This is free without printing
facilties and a small fee if you want to print. I also use ABC MIDI for playing
ABC tunes. ABC2WIN has a terrible play back facility - sound like mobile phone
ring tones, whereas ABC MIDI has the full range of MIDI sounds. It is freeware,
but cannot be used for writing or editing. As its name suggests, it can convert
files into MIDI format, which I use to transfer files into my notation
software.
I find ABC to be an excellent and simple method of recording the dots. And,
because the files are writting in text format, they are very small and easy to
transmit. I have quite large collections of French tunes, most of which I
traced through the ABC home page
David
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:26:28 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] ABC
Hello,
David wrote:
> ring tones, whereas ABC MIDI has the full range of MIDI sounds. It is freeware,
> but cannot be used for writing or editing. As its name suggests, it can convert
> files into MIDI format, which I use to transfer files into my notation
> software.
ABC MIDI also includes midi2abc which creates abc output from midi
files. It *is* a bit tricky to use, to choose the right specifications
for usefull formated output, but a good method to import raw data from
other notation software (finale, capella ... ) to abc.
It is totally useless in case of 'handcrafted' midi files, just usefull
with computer generated ones.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:47:28 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: [HG] Lp at auction
There's a 1983 LP of Robert Mandel playing hurdy gurdy--
up for auction at
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03X1342459X6138834/qid=
1031012826/sr=1-1/102-5111576-1582533
Turntable-less in Michigan,
judith
Judith Lindenau, CAE, RCE
Executive Vice President
Traverse Area Association of Realtors
www.taar.com
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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:12:23 +0200
From: Lauwers.P <Lauwers.P _at_ itc.mil.be>
Subject: RE: [HG] hg electronics
Marc,
Look here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle/construc/amplia.htm
<http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle/construc/amplia.htm>
It gives the impression to be a bit crude but an electronic engineer must be
able to adjust the system.
On the site of Fishman Transducers (http://www.fishman.com/
<http://www.fishman.com/> ) there is a subsection where you can ask
technical questions about amplifying systems.
BTW: next Saturday I start my first HG lessons at the Gooik Music Academy.
All prayers are welcome!
Pieter
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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:27:46 +0200
From: Lauwers.P <Lauwers.P _at_ itc.mil.be>
Subject: RE: [HG] ABC
Michele,
You're making a grown man drool.
Please take some pictures of your instrument.
Can you please specify your way of amplifying by using the Dean Markley
pickups. I often have to amplify acoustic instruments and I'm always open
for an other person's way of thinking.
Pieter Lauwers
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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:35:37 +0200
From: Lauwers.P <Lauwers.P _at_ itc.mil.be>
To all HG players-owners in Belgium:
I'm having a problem. Saturday 07 Sep I start my HG course at the Gooik
academy. My HG isn't ready before 01 Oct at the earliest. Is there someone
who can loan me an instrument for 1 month.
I already contacted my builder, Jaak Devuyst, the school and the
Volksmuziekgilde. They can't help me. I'm expecting a phone call from the HG
teacher this evening but I don't know whether he can help me.
Greetings
Pieter Lauwers
Lauwers.p _at_ itc.mil.be
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:42:49 EDT
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] new subscriber
Dear fellow hurdy-gurdy enthusiasts--
With apologies to Greg, who has already read most of this, and passed me
on to the address of this list:
I took up hurdy-gurdy three years ago for true when a connection in New
York introduced me the a h-g maker in Hungary-- Balazs Nagy.
(http://w3.datanet.hu/~taltos/balazs.htm) If you go to his site, you can see
the first h-g I bought from him, the vielle a roue or lute-back h-g, although
mine has the sympathetic vibrating strings as well. It turned out to be an
amazing show-stopper, and people would stop to listen to it no matter what
they were doing. All the strings except the sympathetic strings were just
guitar strings, the others being banjo strings. I have since switched a
couple of the strings to viola da gamba strings, which has worked out ok. The
instrument is quite loud, and has a distinct "shout" if you care to use it.
It can stop a whole city block if I start playing and don't stop. In my
music groups it tends to dominate any instruments around it. The only
instruments so far that don't get drowned out are soprano and sopranino
recorders, and a very loud tenor banjo used by a fiddler friend I play with.
After a year of initiation first into playing the thing and a second year
of learning how much maintenance it would take to keep it playing well all
the time, I learned Balazs was making an experimental model, the eight-string
guitar-shaped one (in the middle of the site). It is experimental because it
has two chiens and a third chanterelle in another key. The third chanterelle
has turned out to not be much use as a chanterelle per se, although it gives
one extended range of an extra fourth downward, but the sound of the
instrument is distinctly superior to the first, although not so loud -- or
strident. Either one has shown itself to be a magnet wherever it goes. No
matter whatever other instrument I play, and no matter how well, as soon as
they hear the hurdy-gurdy, they are drawn. I have stopped attributing this to
novelty, as one tends to. I play quite a few instruments no one has ever
seen, such as vielle, cornamuse, crumhorn, and such, but they have nowhere
near the drawing power. There are almost no hurdy-gurdies in Louisiana, so
no one has ever seen, much less heard one. The best they can say is they read
about them in music history or something like that.
I don't think it is novelty; I really think the thing is magic. By the
way, I tend to use it in conjunction with our puppet show more than any other
venue (http://www.hobgoblinhill.com/punchandjudy.htm), as you can see. We
perform renfest gigs as well as other historic festivals, and the live music
adds such a lot to the performance.
I did meet one other player, a lady from England, Sue Eaton, who also
played with a puppet show. Otherwise, the little hurdy-gurdy music I have
ever heard outside my own was recordings or over the telephone.
Cheers,
Alice of Hobgoblin Hill Puppets
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:05:41 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
Hi list, and welcome Alice--
a question for y'all--is Sue Eaton related to Nigel & Chris?
just kurious.
Vlad
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:09:46 EDT
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
In a message dated 9/4/2002 9:05:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu writes:
<< a question for y'all--is Sue Eaton related to Nigel & Chris?
>>
Could not say. She works with Martin Bridle, one of England's very excellent
puppeteers.
Alice
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:56:10 +0100
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
Interestingly, Sue isn't related to Nigel & Chris. There is also a Mike
Eaton, again unrelated, who plays Hurdy Gurdy. Must be something about the
name.....
The Hurdy Gurdy, Bagpipe and Guitar workshop weekend in Cambridgeshire was a
great success, with some excellent tuition from Chris Allen, Mike Gilpin,
Ferris Jay and Tony House. It was advertised as being suitable for
beginners, but attracted a range of abilities, from those who had never
played the instruments, to some who had played for a number of years, but
felt that they needed to go back to first principles to undo some bad
habits. When I get time I'll try to do a report of the event. There are a
lot of photos which I'm planning to post on a website soon - I'll let you
know. Thanks to any list members who came along - hope you enjoyed it as
much as I did....I think there will be more.....
Ruthie
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:26:06 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
Yes-
maybe it means "to crank" in old english!
yust kidding...cheers,
vlad
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:02:19 EDT
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
In a message dated 9/5/2002 12:51:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com writes:
<< from those who had never
played the instruments, to some who had played for a number of years, but
felt that they needed to go back to first principles to undo some bad
habits. >>
Gosh, I wish I knew what some bad habits are. I never had anyone to teach me
any habits at all.
Alice
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:41:28 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Thanks for the response Alden. You've given me some things to think about.
> First I think we need to be clear about the terminology, so that we are
> sure that we're talking about the same thing. ;-)
>
> The string is tuned to a particular pitch, which I'm going to call the
> string pitch. The dog also taps on the soundboard at a certain speed or
> frequency, which I'll call the tapping rate.
It's the latter I was asking about. The former is pretty straight-forward.
>
> The string pitch can be changed by adjusting the tension of the
> string, or by changing string diameter.
>
> Changing the tapping rate is something else - for me, something of a
> matter of speculation.
OK. So there is no hard and fast rule on how to do this then...
...
>
> The frequency with which this still
would do it.
Of course all of this requires some close observation since the distance a
dog moves is pretty small. Short of having a strobe I can't even see it on
my tekerő.
> My empirical observation is that the lower the pitch of the trompette
> string, the lower the tapping rate is. This can be heard in the high
> little treble "yap" of a g' trompette, the midrange bark of a c'
> trompette, and the "woof" of the tekero trompette.
This makes sense, but I would guess there is perhaps more going on here. I
do wonder though if the pitch of the dog might not be evenly divisible into
the pitch of string. If that's the case then there would be little that
could be done to control the pitch of the buzz without making quite large
jumps in pitch (e.g., if you had a drone pitch of 440, I wonder if your
possible dog pitches might not be 440, 220, 146.667, 88, 73.333...) If this
is the case then attempting to adjust the pitch of the buzzing bridge itself
would be a rather pointless exercise given that the possible jumps would
follow a harmonic series.
>
> Generally the string tension is lower on the trompettes with lower pitch.
> Perhaps this results in a longer stretch and thus a slower tapping rate.
>
>> I assume that reducing the mass of the bridge would raise the pitch, as
>> would shortening it, but I don't know this as I have never fiddled with my
>> dog in that manner.
>>
>
> At first glance, I don't think that the mass of the dog bridge affects the
> dog sound very much. I would think that the amount of force required to
> bend the trompette string sufficiently to pull the bridge off the
> soundboard would be much more than the force needed to lift the dog off
> the soundboard.
That could well be the case. It sounds like we need to get a student in a
physics program in search of a project to write "Physical Acoustics of the
Hurdy Gurdy"...
> I'll have to continue later,
>
> Alden
>
Thanks again,
Arle
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:06:09 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] Dog pitch
Hello all, Arle & Alden--just some thoughts:
doesn't the increase in wheel speed, plus the factor of the strings
'adhesion' (2 factors--tension of trompette adjustment string, plus
friction coefficient of the rosined wheel on the cotton), have a bunch
to do with the speed (frequency) and amplitude of the dog's displacement?
(this last bit sounds like Rover going out to the bathroom often (speed)
,and gettin it all over the place (amplitude)...or something...).
the amplitude affects the volume of the sound, so it shouldn't affect the
pitch as much, but crazy changes in wheel speed can affect tuning.
it's so complicated...
Vlad
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 11:42:29 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Hi all again,
my initial request on the matter was because I was wondering if it would be
possible on an instrument to have multiple dogs set to multiple
sensitivities with a pitch spread between them such that a lower-energy
initiation of the bridge would activate one bridge and more energy would
activate two or three, with each one spreading the pitch range of the buzz,
creating more effective "noise" in the buzz. If dog pitch does depend on
string pitch then this could be done using a fifth - fourth spacing on the
drone tunings (e.g., C3, G3, C4) with the sensitivity for each drone
increasing as the pitch goes up, so that you could have light high and
delicate buzzing on the C4, but heavier noisier dog sounds (using the G3 or
C3) when the instrument is cranked at a greater velocity. The drones
themselves would of course sound all the time, but the idea is to gain even
more control over the buzzing bridge sound.
In conjunction with an instrument of very limited dynamic range this sort of
arrangement could lead to some exciting effects.
Note that the important thing here is not the multiple dogs, but the pitch
spread. My initial thought was to have them all drones of the same pitch,
but a "rich" drone setup would also work.
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:03:11 -0700
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
>Interestingly, Sue isn't related to Nigel & Chris. There is also a Mike
>Eaton, again unrelated, who plays Hurdy Gurdy. Must be something about the
>name.....
No kidding. A couple of years ago I recorded some hurdy gurdy tracks
as a session musician on someone's CD. I got paid and that was the
last I heard of it. Recently I got curious as to what had happened
with this project so I looked for and found the CD on the internet
. To my surprise, the hurdy gurdy playing is credited to a Justin
Eaton. I contacted the artist who had hired me and asked who Justin
Eaton was, but never got a reply. Instead I started recieving gig
information for a band called Zeppagain; apparently the guy who asked
me to play on his CD 'is' also Robert Plant in a Led Zepplin tribute
band, and of course Nigel Eaton has on occation played with Plant and
Page. So this Robert PlantDoppelgaenger finds a hurdy gurdy player
called Eaton. Coincidence? we think not.
"Well, the difference between you and me, old man, is that whereas I
was brought up at Eaton*, you were Eaton and brought up".
Juan
* famous English school.
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:49:00 EDT
From: Cruikshank44 _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
I've got plenty of bad gurdy habits to pass along, if you want. You just
can't give them back...
Felicia.
PS Welcome to the list.
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:52:49 +0100
From: Mark J Hewitt <m.hewitt _at_ computer.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
Also interestingly, Sue's boyfriend is called Nigel. They were thinking of
performing under the names of Nigel and Sue Eaton ...
And for you Ruthie: Nigel (not Eaton!) plays a Gotschy Phoenix that saw
some considerable action at the Swanage gathering at California Farm in
July!
Another interesting facet is that Mike Eaton plays the first Pajot-based
instrument
that Chris Eaton made!
#!/mjh
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:07:20 +0000
From: Stephen Evans <brunfelsia _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Hello Arle,
I found your correspondance on dog pitch fascinating; thank you.
Although a relative novice, I have found that selective application of rosin
to the chein affects the harmonic content of the "bark" quite a lot. The
richest blend, with a preponderance of the fundamental is achieved with a
clean soundplate, chein foot and heel. Applying rosin to the foot appears to
supress the fundamental and emphasise the harmonics; rosin to the chein heel
as well, even more. I presume the oscillations are damped by the rosin's
adhesive nature. Any ideas on paper for a multiple dog system yet? I'd love
to see them!
Kind regards,
Steve Evans [UK]
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 13:26:34 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
I haven't actually designed anything in this regard, but would like to. The
idea actually comes from the following image of one of Jesús Reolid's
instruments (which, I might add, are beautiful instruments):
<http://ret007ei.eresmas.net/reolid/images/zanfonarafa.jpg>
If you look you can see that there are three dogs stacked on a tower, each
with their own strike plate. Although there are other ways of having
multiple dogs, I like the particular stacking solution Jesús has come up
with.
What I would like to do is set up something like that with each dog set to a
different pitch and sensitivity, leading to a more or less robust and
low-pitched sound depending on the playing speed and energy. Of course some
people find setting up one dog enough, so I don't know that fiddling with
three at different sensitivities would be fun for most people. It would be
like adding the problems a bagpiper faces with reeds to the top of the
problems a HG-player faces.
(The above brought up another question. What is a HG-player called in
English? Is there any option like "viellist" or some such thing? In
Hungarian you could be a tekerős, but hurdy-gurdier sounds pretty dumb in
English...)
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:26:35 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Hello,
I read these thoughts about chien sound control with some interest.
There are some nice ideas about its function.
Arle Lommel wrote:
> my initial request on the matter was because I was wondering if it would be
> possible on an instrument to have multiple dogs set to multiple
> sensitivities with a pitch spread between them such that a lower-energy
> initiation of the bridge would activate one bridge and more energy would
> activate two or three, with each one spreading the pitch range of the buzz,
> creating more effective "noise" in the buzz. If dog pitch does depend on
> string pitch then this could be done using a fifth - fourth spacing on the
> drone tunings (e.g., C3, G3, C4) with the sensitivity for each drone
> increasing as the pitch goes up, so that you could have light high and
> delicate buzzing on the C4, but heavier noisier dog sounds (using the G3 or
> C3) when the instrument is cranked at a greater velocity. The drones
> themselves would of course sound all the time, but the idea is to gain even
> more control over the buzzing bridge sound.
>
> In conjunction with an instrument of very limited dynamic range this sort of
> arrangement could lead to some exciting effects.
>
> Note that the important thing here is not the multiple dogs, but the pitch
> spread. My initial thought was to have them all drones of the same pitch,
> but a "rich" drone setup would also work.
as far as I know the first recording where someone used a hurdy gurdy
which such a setting is this LP Valenin Clastrier recorded in 1987 which
was for sure an important landmark in hurdy gurdy history.
Since then the use of different-sounding and responding chiens each by
each or simultaniously became more and more common knowledge and
practice. Depending on players needs, the instruments possibilities and
the acctuall musical situation I think this is quite common today.
For me the much more important feature of a good trompette system is the
possibility to produce buzzes of different dynamics/loudness with one
chien by just changing the impulse of the hand and without changing the
sensitivity of the chien or the general turning speed.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:38:18 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: [HG] Stacking the dogs
http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/english/details/tenor.htm
Here's photos of how Weichselbaumer approaches stacked dogs.
judith
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:45:30 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Hello again,
my sense of justice affords to mention that there are several makers who
build such instruments for quite a while now.
I know it from Boireaud, Siorat, Weichselbaumer, Jenner, Gotschy,
Mousnier, Seidler, I guess Bleton and Eaton also and I am sure others
did the same too. Even if you rule out those who only build instruments
with two trompettes there still is a number of them where you regulary
can order up to 4.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:54:28 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Stacking the dogs
A slightly better view from one of Weichselbaumer's other instruments is at:
<http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/english/photo/canto01.htm>
It's substantially the same approach as Jesús' instruments although clearly
designed for a different wheel size and position. It seems that the
Weichselbaumer instrument is making more use of the "side" of the wheel,
whereas Jesús is using the "top" of the wheel (notice the different stacking
angles).
On additional difference is that the strike plates in the Weichselbaumer
instrument are canted at different angles with respect to the soundboard to
keep them all with the same angle with respect to the wheel. Jesús' one, on
the other hand keeps them all more or less parallel with respect to the
soundboard, which would mean that the bottom dog would experience more
lifting force from the strike plate than the one at the top, where a greater
portion of the wheel's energy would be in the direction parallel to the
soundboard.
Does anyone have any experience with how these differences would affect the
sound/response of the dogs? It would seem that the two instruments would
probably be very different in the dog response, but as I've tried neither of
them I don't know. (Plus I play tekerő which has a rather different setup
for the dog anyway...)
- Arle
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 15:01:04 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Certainly Simon is correct. I had no intention of short-changing anyone
else's work. Jesús happens to be the maker I like best from an aesthetic
standpoint, but that's a matter of personal preference entirely.
The question of specific tunings of the dogs is another issue, and one that
I think there if more for me to learn about still in order to figure out how
to arrive at what I want in particular.
Although I didn't make it clear, I was aware that multiple dogs were common,
but I was not aware that there were instruments designed to do just what I
wanted (spread-spectrum dog with the spread phased in based on wheel
energy). I will need to look up the recording Simon refers to now and listen
to it.
Best,
Arle
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:10:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Bryan TOLLEY <Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] new subscriber
Sorry Juan, but the famous English school is spelled 'Eton'. Nice play
on words though.
Bryan
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 18:32:06 +0700
From: Keiji OTAKE <kei_otake _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Re: Dog pitch
Hello all
---Alden wrote:
>The frequency with which this tapping occurs is the aforementioned tapping
>rate. What this rate is, I don't know. I've done some Fourier analysis
>on a sampled signal, but it wasn't as informative as I had hoped.
I think the higher pitch element should play an important role in dog sound.
Harmonics? or noise element? if Fourier analysis does not work.
In my experience, sampling rate of HG recording needs 20khz more.
(sampling rate of CD is 44.1khz, if my memory is correct)
In recording with 10khz sampling rate, sound of melody strings was
rather clear, but dog sound became so vague.
Kei
regards
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:38:32 +0000
From: Martijn Dekker <martijn_dekker _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] cd's "Stéphane DURAND "
Hello,
Can anyone tell me where i can find a discography of Stéphane DURAND, cd
recommendations are welcome(already have tapage, i like the "modern-style").
Thanks in advance,
MD
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
--- Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> wrote:
> The question of specific tunings of the dogs is another issue, and
> one that
> I think there if more for me to learn about still in order to figure
> out how
> to arrive at what I want in particular.
I have a Siorat from the early 80's with two stacked dogs. The lower
one taps directly on the soundboard, making it quite a bit louder than
the other. All the photos we've seen so far have an elevated plate on
the low one. I reckon this is done to get a more consistant volume and
overall sound.
Whether by design or coincidence, the higher elevation is also the
higher pitch. I sometimes tension the high trompette (call it "g") up
real tight (or per Cliff Stapleton: "fat") and set the low one (tuned
to c or d) a bit slacker than normal. I can run a coup de 4 on g
against a basic rhythm on the lower, say |:1...|1.3.:| or |1..4|..3.|
(1,4,7), but I haven't figured out how to make the high one drop out
and play the low one alone, which would be essential for a proper
hemiola (2 vs 3).
X:0001
T:Possible, simple
C:Trad
M:C
L1/8
K:G
V:1
|:gz gz gz gz|gz gz gz gz:|
V:2
|:dz zz zz zz|dz zz dz zz:|
X:0002
T:Possible, 1,4,7
C:Trad
M:C
L1/8
K:G
V:1
|:gz gz gz gz|gz gz gz gz:|
V:2
|:dz zz zz dz|zz zz dz zz:|
X:0003
T:Hemiola
C:Trad
M:6/8
L1/8
K:G
V:1
|:gz gz gz|gz gz gz:|
V:2
|:dzz dzz |dzz dzz :|
I reckon hemiola is better served by playing 1 dog vs the melody, but I
hope there's a way to do it without having to dampen the strings with
the left hand.
Disclaimers for the uninitiated; "z" indicates a Rest, all of the
values are 1/8th. "V" is Voice, i.e. alto, tenor, &c. The spaces don't
matter in these examples, I only did it this way to make it easier to
look at. i.e.|[dg]zgdgz|[dg]zgdgz| sounds exactly the same, and opens a
whole new can of worms...
Anyway Arle, is that anything at all what you're talking about here?
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:57:19 +0200
From: cor westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: [HG] Re: [HG] cd's "Stéphane DURAND "
Hi Martijn,
As far as I know Stéphane Durand also made a cd with the group "le Terminus"
, title: ' il est bien temps' and together with Thierry Nouat , another
excellent hg player, "Machiavel".
Machiavel is released by AMTA and I think Le Terminus is also available via
AMTA.
Groet,
Cor Westbroek
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:56:18 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Actually Roy I think what you're doing is probably a good deal more
sophisticated that what I envisioned, although essentially the same sort of
thing. Your X0001 shows it perfectly in the second measure where when you
have the g and d stacked I assume you get a "fatter" sound on those buzzes,
making for something like a sfz on the 1st and 3rd beats. That pretty much
what I was thinking of, except that I hadn't envisioned that much control. I
was thinking of entire passages being
So what I am getting at is certainly possible. The question of tuning the
pitch of the bridge itself was what interested me, partially because of this
issue where I would want the different bridges to be consonant (e.g., I
wouldn't want one sounding a D, one an Eb and one an F). I wouldn't want
them to sound the same pitch either, but I would want them to sound
consonant, e.g., octaves apart with a fifth in the middle, which would make
anything from a single light buzz to an open fifth to a "fat" heavy buzz.
When you do what you describe, how do the pitches of the dogs seem to
relate? Do they sound OK together when the trompette strings themselves
sound OK together? If you detune your drones so they sound horribly together
do the dogs then also clash?
Regarding playing just one or the other, I suspect there is no good way to
handle that using today's HGs. By changing the sensitivities to allow one to
be triggered (but not the other) it would seem to me that you would
necessarily make one require less energy to buzz and therefore make it so
that it would, of necessity, sound with the other one. The only alternative
would be to find some way to make it so that over a certain energy one
wouldn't sound, but that would probably require a radical redesign of the
dog.
Maybe, if someone were wanting to be really non-traditional, a partially
electronically controlled dog that measures the vibrational energy of the
string could be created and set to only sound at certain energy levels.
Something like that could surely be done with today's technology (perhaps
using an electromagnet in the strike plate plus a slug of metal in the dog
so that the dog can be electrically dampened). The cost and difficulty of
making something like that work might be more than the result is worth
although it could lead to some amazing and utterly non-traditional effects.
All this is more than I really want to do. And all of it depends on my
getting something other than my three-string tekerő at some point in the
future.
Oh well.
-Arle
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:40:06 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch - a few corrections
After sending my last message I realized that I wasn't entirely clear on a
few points. So here are a few minor corrections.
> That pretty much what I was thinking of, except that I hadn't envisioned
> that much control. I was thinking of entire passages being...
...with one buzz style or another. But eventually this would lead to exactly
what Roy describes - using the possibilities to make complex rhythmical
figures within a passage. [Somehow I didn't finish a sentence in my original
post.]
> All this is more than I really want to do.
"All" here meaning electro-magnetic dogs and so forth. The rest (about
mutliple dogs and sensitivities) describes what I am interested in pretty
well.
Thanks Roy for expanding my horizon with your informative response.
Sorry for phrasing myself so poorly.
-Arle
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Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 00:46:29 +0200
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] cd's "Stphane DURAND "
Hi Martijn (& others)
Take a look at: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tapage/
René Meeuws
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 21:19:11 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Funny, I've never given the specifics of this issue much thought, until
last night when I was trying to fall asleep. That's the way things often
happen around here...
I'll use Alden's description...
At 02:36 AM 8/30/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Arle said:
>
> > What determines the pitch of the buzzing bridge? My tekerő has a very low
> > pitched dog, and I would like to raise it a bit. I figure I can make my own
> > dog with some experimentation, but any suggestions about how to do this
> > would help so that I could start experimenting in the right direction at
> > least.
>
>First I think we need to be clear about the terminology, so that we are
>sure that we're talking about the same thing. ;-)
>
>The string is tuned to a particular pitch, which I'm going to call the
>string pitch. The dog also taps on the soundboard at a certain speed or
>frequency, which I'll call the tapping rate.
>
>The string pitch can be changed by adjusting the tension of the
>string, or by changing string diameter.
>
>Changing the tapping rate is something else - for me, something of a
>matter of speculation.
>
>Here's a model of how I envision the dog working. When the wheel is
>moving at a sufficiently high velocity, the rosin friction of the wheel
>catches the string, pulling it upwards and stretching it. The dog is
>lifted by the string when this occurs. The string reaches a point where it
>won't stretch any more. The frictional "bond" between the wheel and the
>string is broken. With nothing to hold it up, the string tension pulls
>the string back down, and the dog comes with it until it hits the
>soundboard. This whole process is one "tap". If the wheel is still
>moving at the same speed, the whole process starts over again.
>
>The frequency with which this tapping occurs is the aforementioned tapping
>rate. What this rate is, I don't know. I've done some Fourier analysis
>on a sampled signal, but it wasn't as informative as I had hoped. A
>digital video camera with a really fast sampling rate would probably do
>the trick, but we don't have access to one.
>
>My empirical observation is that the lower the pitch of the trompette
>string, the lower the tapping rate is. This can be heard in the high
>little treble "yap" of a g' trompette, the midrange bark of a c'
>trompette, and the "woof" of the tekero trompette.
>
>Generally the string tension is lower on the trompettes with lower pitch.
>Perhaps this results in a longer stretch and thus a slower tapping rate.
I agree with Alden about the mechanics. But the dog tapping at a DIFFERENT
frequency than the string which is lifting it? Is this what is being
suggested?
It just doesn't seem likely that the dog would be moving up and down less
often than the fundamental frequency of the string. Could the dog only be
lifting up with every OTHER "up-swing" of the cycle? Every third?
And to have it moving MORE often than the fundamental frequency would, it
seems to me, require it to be responding to some harmonic, and I think that
the amplitude of string vibration due to the strings harmonics are too
small to lift the dog.
Does this make sense? Am I missing something?
Isn't the Hungarian method opposite - the "dog" being at rest OFF the
soundboard? The same thoughts apply as far as I'm concerned. And to add
even more fuel to the fire, remember (especially Theo) the discussion about
buzzers which change pitch WHILE they're buzzing? The trompette string is
tuned to a certain pitch, and as you turn faster and the buzz begins, the
pitch drops noticeably. It seems to me that this happens (among other
possibilities) when there is too much string pressure, and the string lifts
the dog so much that the effective vibrating length is extended to include
some portion of the string between the dog and it's anchored end. If I am
correct about this, then this effect shouldn't be evident on Hungarian
style buzzers.
Blah, blah, blah...
Any thoughts?
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:29:48 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] Fwd: Hurdy gurdy for sale
Howdy gang-
I'm forwarding this message to the list for a friend who is selling his
hurdy-gurdy...
~ Matt
>Hurdy gurdy for sale. Made circa 1972 by Jean Noel Grandchamps in Brittany.
>Excellent condition. Savage and Hoy hard case. Pictures available on-line.
>$4000. James Lea, Rockport Maine
>
>James Lea Clockmaker
>2 West St. PO Box 25
>Rockport Maine 04856
>1-207-236-3632
>Mail to: clocks _at_ jamesleaclocks.com
>Web Page http://www.jamesleaclocks.com
>NAWCC #12482 AWI #30820 BHI # 19609
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Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
Hey Arle.
I may be confused myself, but I think this may be the heart of the
answer you are looking for: You tune a trompette string to a particular
note, and make a dog that works. I'm not aware of any overt attempts to
tune a dog to a particular note. You can get a lighter, crisper sound
by removing excess material, but the actual note is a symptom <g> of
the string diameter and tension. Hope that clears up a couple of
points. ...And speaking of clarity, I pretty much got your drift anyway
with out the corrections.. Thanks.
--- Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> wrote:
> ....where when you
> have the g and d stacked I assume you get a "fatter" sound on those
> buzzes,
> making for something like a sfz on the 1st and 3rd beats....
Essentially what you get is Noise (um,er, Percussion).
> So what I am getting at is certainly possible. The question of tuning
> the
> pitch of the bridge itself was what interested me,
There again, don't bother trying to tune the bridge, just tune the
string, you'll be alright.
> I would want them to sound
> consonant, e.g., octaves apart with a fifth in the middle, which
> would make
> anything from a single light buzz to an open fifth to a "fat" heavy
> buzz.
>
> When you do what you describe, how do the pitches of the dogs seem to
> relate? Do they sound OK together when the trompette strings
> themselves
> sound OK together?
I tune the trompette to the key or mode I'm playing. There are a lot
of tunes that sound pretty good with a G drone & a D trompette, a few
that sound OK with a mix of C and G, (either one on drone or
trompette). So if I'm using the G drone I tune the loud tromp to D,
with the C drone I leave it on C.
> If you detune your drones so they sound horribly
> together
> do the dogs then also clash?
I never use both drones together, I really don't like that sound. I
tend to tune every thing as near as I can and then let the chips fall
...
I think the only reason it works at all is the same reason that you
tune a drumhead up to a point, but make no overt effort to shift the
pitch everytime the band changes keys. Still, it's not a drum so you
have to pay attention to intonation, just don't let it ruin your day.
>
> Regarding playing just one or the other, I suspect there is no good
> way to
> handle that using today's HGs.
Very likely, I mentioned in the last post that the g one is not very
loud, so I might be getting that effect anyway and not know it.Playing
the coup de 4 on the louder D string, makes the G rhythm too subtile to
bother... I have noticed that as you depart from the nominal tuning
the volume changes, so a lower note ( say F ) might get eaten by the C
trompette. I have a couple of Mexican tunes that I play in F against a
C drone, so the experiment is pretty well set up anyway. Hmmmnmnnn...
> Maybe, if someone were wanting to be really non-traditional, a
> partially
> electronically controlled dog that measures the vibrational energy of
> the
> string could be created and set to only sound at certain energy
> levels.
Oh, you probably could set up some kind of threshold filter to blank
the sound over a certain level. If it ever happens I'd like to give it
a test drive, but I'm not much interested in technology. Technique
intriges me. What-all can be done with what I already have?
> Oh well
Yeah, me too <g>. Roy T.
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:33:58 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: [HG] movie sighting - Naughty Marietta
Hi all,
here's one more movie appearance of a HG: the 1935 film Naughty Marietta,
starring Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddie (with generous doses of Frank
Morgan). There is a scene (supposedly in New Orleans) when the run-away and
disguised princess of France is leaning outside a window watching a group of
local musicians. One of the women is holding a HG, which you see for all of
about two seconds. She is cranking it, but not holding it right, and I
couldn't tell if it was a real instrument or a prop since it is not shown
clearly. The music, needless to say, does not include a HG...
-Arle
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Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:49:19 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Dog pitch
On 9/6/02 20:19, "Matthew Szostak" <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I'll use Alden's description...
>
> I agree with Alden about the mechanics. But the dog tapping at a DIFFERENT
> frequency than the string which is lifting it? Is this what is being
> suggested?
That's the question. It seems that no one really knows what relation the
pitch of the buzz has to the pitch of the string.
> It just doesn't seem likely that the dog would be moving up and down less
> often than the fundamental frequency of the string. Could the dog only be
> lifting up with every OTHER "up-swing" of the cycle? Every third?
There are actually a number of sound-producing mechanisms that result in
pitches lower than the fundamental. Tuvan xömei throat-singing for example,
wolf tones... There are a number of conceivable ways in which a regular
correspondence could arise in which multiple oscillations of the string
would result in a single oscillation of the bridge. I don't know that this
is the case, but it doesn't seem (to my ear at least) that the dog buxx
pitch and the trompette string pitch are the same.
> And to have it moving MORE often than the fundamental frequency would, it
> seems to me, require it to be responding to some harmonic, and I think that
> the amplitude of string vibration due to the strings harmonics are too
> small to lift the dog.
I think you're right there. Of course it's possible that the pitch of the
dog buzz has no relationship to the string pitch, in which case tuning dogs
to specific pitches might be possible. It just seems that no one knows.
Short of trying the strobe experiment I describe it might be difficult to
determine this.
>
> Does this make sense? Am I missing something?
No, you've understood right. I think that my explanations haven't always
been the clearest.
> Isn't the Hungarian method opposite - the "dog" being at rest OFF the
> soundboard?
The Hungarian dog could be set up this way, and I have gotten it to work
that way, but it is very difficult to control and keep stable. (It's
probably my fault that you think that about the Hungarian dog since I wrote
to you once early on when I first had my tekerő and was experimenting with
ways to control the dog to ask you how it all works...)
Generally the tekerő's dog bridge is held down against the soundboard (like
in the French instruments) by the pressure of the lever that goes under the
bridge's "superstructure" and over the top of the string. It is a rather
more direct way to control the downward pressure on the bridge than the
French mechanism since none of the pressure is directed toward the center of
the soundboard. It's not necessarily better or worse, but it is different.
In addition the Hungarian dog has more mass since it is a solid block rather
than a carved and shaped thing. Maybe this is part of the reason for the
difference in sound as well (which would go back to my original question
about bridge mass and its relation to the dog's pitch).
> The same thoughts apply as far as I'm concerned. And to add
> even more fuel to the fire, remember (especially Theo) the discussion about
> buzzers which change pitch WHILE they're buzzing? The trompette string is
> tuned to a certain pitch, and as you turn faster and the buzz begins, the
> pitch drops noticeably. It seems to me that this happens (among other
> possibilities) when there is too much string pressure, and the string lifts
> the dog so much that the effective vibrating length is extended to include
> some portion of the string between the dog and it's anchored end. If I am
> correct about this, then this effect shouldn't be evident on Hungarian
> style buzzers.
For that to be happening I would suspect that the bridge would have to be
close to a harmonic node on the full string length. But I don't know that.
>
> Blah, blah, blah...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ~ Matt
Hmm. I guess we need that physics grad student to study the HG, but that
might deprive it of some of the mystery...
-Arle
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 19:02:04 +0200
From: Wenceslao Martínez Calonge <wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt>
Subject: [HG] And more Iberian stuff
Dear list members,
here you can find 6 excerpts in MP3 by Jota Martínez (not a relative, just a
coincidence) from Madrid:
http://www.zanfona.com/jota/
Though the excerpts are not supposed to give you the whole recording you can
have an idea of Jota's personal sound.
Mr Jota is about to publish 3 new records. Yes, three.
Greetings from Coimbra (Portugal),
Wenceslao Martínez Calonge
wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt
http://www.interacesso.pt/web/wencesmc
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:29:03 +0200
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: [HG] vielle baroque
Hi list,
There's a new cd on which Matthias Loibner and Ricardo Delfino play baroque
music on two HG's, sometimes with continuo:
"Loibner & Delfino: Les Maîtres de la Vielle Baroque. French Music for
Hurdy-Gurdy". Classic Produktion Osnabrück, CPO 999 864-2.
Seldom heard pieces from Dugué, Buterne, Dupuits, Naudot, Ravet, Marchand
and Bâton.
Great performance: in my opinion the new standard!
Greetings from Holland,
René Meeuws
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Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 23:01:33 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Hello,
René Meeuws wrote:
> There's a new cd on which Matthias Loibner and Ricardo Delfino play baroque
> music on two HG's, sometimes with continuo:
> "Loibner & Delfino: Les Maîtres de la Vielle Baroque. French Music for
> Hurdy-Gurdy". Classic Produktion Osnabrück, CPO 999 864-2.
> Seldom heard pieces from Dugué, Buterne, Dupuits, Naudot, Ravet, Marchand
> and Bâton.
> Great performance: in my opinion the new standard!
yes its a great CD.
The recordings were made in Kremsmuenster, at the monastery where the
'BordunMusik-Fest' takes place, and they did a great concert after
having ended the recording sessions last summer. I had the opportunity
to get a copy of the CD master some time ago, and this is definitely a
new standard.
I belive that this recording is going to be a landmark in the hurdy
gurdy world like the first Clastrier recording from the 80's.
Great sound, great virtouosity, great compositions, superb music.
Nothing comparable yet.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 18:34:08 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] movie sighting - Naughty Marietta
Hi all-
I don't recall an appearance of the instrument on flm in this one, but
Sergei Paradzhanov's 1964 "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" ("Tini zabutykh
predkiv") includes a scratchy, shim-needing ukrainian yra as part of the
crazy surreal soundtrack. check it out!
happy new year's to all celebrating rosh hashanah this weekend-
Vlad
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:37:07 +0100
From: John Allwright <john _at_ allwright.org>
Subject: RE: [HG] vielle baroque
I tracked down the CD at the label's German language site (good luck):-
http://www.cpo.de/de/klassik/klassik_set.html
Go for a search (suche) and type "loibner" in the Artist (Interpret)
field and hit the "los gehts" (GO!) button
The CD should be at the top of the results list & in the preview pane on
the right with track previews too. "Bestellen" (order) should let you
specify delivery to the US but I haven't tried it...
Good luck
John
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:06:17 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Hello,
John Allwright wrote:
> I tracked down the CD at the label's German language site (good luck):-
> http://www.cpo.de/de/klassik/klassik_set.html
> Go for a search (suche) and type "loibner" in the Artist (Interpret)
> field and hit the "los gehts" (GO!) button
>
> The CD should be at the top of the results list & in the preview pane on
> the right with track previews too. "Bestellen" (order) should let you
> specify delivery to the US but I haven't tried it...
I found an english version of the page:
http://www.jpc.de/en/cpo/cpo_set.html
click 'new' and 'Les Maitres de la Vielle Baroque'
appears in the right frame of the browser window
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:13:12 +0200 (CEST)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Alte Musik:Barock bis zur Vorklassik:
Les Maitres de la Vielle Baroque
CD EUR 14.99
Conditions of dispatch other Countries
Deliveries to other EC countries are generally subject
to a charge of ...
United States 28 EUR
Italy 14.99 EUR
I'll try to call Riccardo and Mathias, maybe a private
concert is less expensive :o)
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 02:52:33 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Thanks for the links.
>
> I'll try to call Riccardo and Mathias, maybe a private
> concert is less expensive :o)
I like Marcello's last idea best.
Speaking of which- if I were to again invite Matthias, Riccardo and
some others to come teach a week-long workshop on Maui- maybe early
spring of 2003- how many people would be interested in attending??
Aloha-
Don
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:13:33 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Hello,
CPO wrote me on request that their distributor in the US is:
NAXOS of USA
which distributes to shops only and that new CD's will be ordered maybe
not earlier than two months from now. So, if you can afford to wait
another three months, you can order/get it at your local classical CD
supplier.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:59:30 -0400
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
This may be worth the wait. Amazon sells Naxos CDs for $8, and my
local Borders always has a good selection at about the same price.
For a teaser, buy the Boismortier Ballets de Village - Hervé Niquet
& Le Concert Spirituel. Loibner & Delfino appear on hurdy-gurdies,
and as a bonus you also get the fabulous Jean-Christophe Maillard on
musette de cour. This is extremely high-quality material and I find
it amazing that it's on a budget label. Not complaining though.
John Roberts.
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:11:00 +0200 (CEST)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] Delfino on Naxos [was: vielle baroque]
--- John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net> wrote: >
> For a teaser, buy the Boismortier Ballets de
> Village - Hervé Niquet
> & Le Concert Spirituel. Loibner & Delfino appear on
> hurdy-gurdies,
> and as a bonus you also get the fabulous
> Jean-Christophe Maillard on
> musette de cour. This is extremely high-quality
> material and I find
> it amazing that it's on a budget label. Not
> complaining though.
There are also several CD by UNICORN ENSEMBLE, with
Riccardo Delfino playing hurdy-gurdy for the same
label at the same price....
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:26:03 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Delfino on Naxos [was: vielle baroque]
marcello bono wrote:
>
> There are also several CD by UNICORN ENSEMBLE, with
> Riccardo Delfino playing hurdy-gurdy for the same
> label at the same price....
..and with the ensemble ACCENTUS...
S.
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:47:00 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Hello,
there is another NAXOS 2CD box with music by Boismortier with Hervé
Niquet & Le Concert Spirituel featring Matthias Loibner &
Jean-Christophe Maillard in a few tracks (By the way the bassoon player
is again Laurent Le Chenadec) called:
'Serenades chez Marie Leczinska'
Naxos 8.554456-57
this is if one
A)likes Boismortier anyway or is collecting
B)all hurdy gurdy recordings
C)recordings by certain musicans
it is a nice recording but just bits of hurdy gurdy playing.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:36:45 -0500
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
I would be interested,
Theo
>
> Speaking of which- if I were to again invite Matthias, Riccardo and
> some others to come teach a week-long workshop on Maui- maybe early
> spring of 2003- how many people would be interested in attending??
>
> Aloha-
>
> Don
>
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:29:22 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] vielle baroque
Me, too.
judith
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:51:14 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] vielle baroque
Hi Don,
I think I'll come this time!!!
Helmut
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
Hi everyone,
There is a really fine looking luteback HG for sale on
Ebay made by Jean Noel Grandchamp in Brittany,
northern France about 35 years ago.
Here is a link to the website:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=905886401
Take a look,
David Smith
Dearborn, Michigan USA
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:51:28 -0500
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: [HG] Maui workshop
Thats good Helmut. So far we have two teachers one HG builder and three
students, Judith, Don and me. Anybody else?
I know folks won't want to be distracted from their HG playing but there are
other things to do in Maui, like tanning and body surfing and visiting the
clothing optional beaches and swimming with the sea turtles and playing in
open mike bars and visiting the 4 seasons to hear Don play and snorkeling
and putting your head under water to hear the 3000 whales wailing and
watching them slap their tails on the water.
But that's only if you need a break from HG playing.
Theo
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:00:41 EDT
From: RoseDaly2000 _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Maui workshop
Make that four students!
Rose
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:23:48 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maui workshop
Theo, You Rock!
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:57:37 -0700
From: Debra Dawson <goodthym _at_ mcn.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maui workshop
Hi
For those of us who just skim the news on this list, is there
actually a workshop being planned for Maui? If so, when? Could you
respond to my email personally if you are the organizer, as I am
really a potential participant.
Thanks, Deb Dawson
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:15:18 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy for sale
Hi David!
This is the same instrument which I wrote about a few days ago. He was
going to wait to see if anyone here on the list was interested before
trying ebay...
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:18:48 +0200
From: Wolfgang Weichselbaumer <atelier _at_ weichselbaumer.cc>
Subject: [HG] Maui
Hi Don,
I´m also interested to come to Maui to enjoy the landscape and the
nice people.
Wolfgang
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:13:58 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maui
That's great! I'm going to start getting it organized.
Aloha-
Don
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:47:37 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Maui
How cool! I have some questions to
ask you, Wolfgang, about this
terrific instrument I have!
Judith
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:33:15 -0700
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maui
I might also be interested
No doubt I will see some of you guys at OTW and we can talk about it
Graham Whyte
graham _at_ altongate.co.uk
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maui
>
> No doubt I will see some of you guys at OTW and we can talk about it
Just so everyone knows (since I don't think there has been a post
specifically about the festival) what Graham is talking about is the 2002
Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Festival, which is coming up very soon here.
This is a fabulous opportunity to get instruction from some of the world's
top players: this year the classes are taught by Gilles Chabenat,
Christophe Tellart, Marcello Bono, and RT Taylor. Great concerts, great
food, great location (complete with a hot tub with a view over the water
to Mount Rainier), and really great people.
For more information, visit www.overthewater.org
Hope to see you there!
Alden
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] More on the chien
Cali and I have been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few
days (read - talking about it while driving down the road, in restaurants,
in Home Depot... no wonder we got some strange looks).
It seems to me that we need a model of how the dog works. There is one
issue, which is how the wheel activates the trompette string to sound,
and another, which is how it activates the tapping of the dog. These
are clearly related, but their relationship is still unclear.
In the interest of explaining the activation of the string, we looked at
the models of how a violin bow activates a string. I found a cool site
that discusses this:
www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/Bows.html
An ideal string bowed by an ideal bow vibrates according to a model called
Helmholtz motion. For a full description, read the webpage. ;-)
My first question is whether the strings of a HG vibrate according to this
model, which is a basic "stick-slip-stick-slip" model.
I did some calculations using the formulae on the webpage, to find what
the displacement at the bowing point would be:
L = 40 cm = 0.4 m
f = 262 Hz (trompette tuned to c') = 262 sec^-1
cycle time = 1/262 sec^-1 = 0.0038 sec
V = kink speed = 2Lf
= 2 * 0.4 m * 262 sec^-1
= 210 m sec^-1 (210 m/sec)
Assume a wheel position 4 cm from the chien:
L/n = 0.04 m
n = 0.4 m / 0.04 m
= 10
D = travel distance of kink
D = 2L(n-1)/n
= 2 * 0.4 m * 9 / 10
= 0.72 m
D/V = travel time of kink
D/V = 0.72 m / 210 m sec^-1
= 0.0034 sec
also
D/V = (n-1) / nf
= 9 / (10 * 262 sec^-1)
= 0.0034 sec
these match - good!
find wheel speed (substitute for bow speed):
assume 1.5 turns per second, which is a moderate turning speed
wheel diameter (d) of (~7 in)(2.54 cm ^in) = 17.8 cm = 0.178 m
wheel circumference = pi * d
= 3.14 * 0.178 m
= 0.56 m
v = circumference * turns per second
= 0.56 m * 1.5 sec^-1
= 0.84 m sec^1
A = amplitude of string vibration at bowing point
= v * (n-1) / n * f
= 0.84 m sec^-1 * 9 / 10 * 262
= 0.0029 m
This is essentially 3 mm.
Initially this seemed unrealistically high to me, and then I thought about
it a little more - this would mean that the wheel would stretch the string
out 1.5 mm in one direction, and then it would slip and overshoot the
resting position by 1.5 mm in the opposite direction - and this seems
possible. The same calculations for the chanter string in g' with the
wheel at the 1/13th position yield an amplitude of 2 mm, which also seems
possible - 1 mm in each direction. On a really heavily strung HG you can
see the strings being displaced almost that much.
So this makes me think more and more that the tapping rate of the dog and
the vibration rate of the string are the same, which I'd been pretty well
opposed to.
Next time: maybe some more thoughts about what the chien is doing, and how
it works.
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:57:31 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
At 12:57 PM 9/11/02 -0700, Alden wrote:
>So this makes me think more and more that the tapping rate of the dog and
>the vibration rate of the string are the same, which I'd been pretty well
>opposed to.
Alden-
I'm too tired to follow the details of the math tonight, but you've come to
results which it seems you expected. So what is it about the result which
makes you doubt your original idea?
~ Matt
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:21:43 -0700
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Stick-slipping dog ?
Alden,
I agree in general with what you say, in particular that we have a
stick-slip behaviour in bowing the string to produce the note
The whole point of rosin is that is coefficient of limiting friction is very
much higher that its coefficient of sliding friction.
Lets look at the evidence of our ears.
If you buzz the trompette WHILE tuning the string, the buzz frequency
clearly tracks the changing note, try it.
The buzz frequency must therefore be a function of the string frequency.
As the dog is being exited by the vibrating string, so its frequency is very
likely to be closely related to the string frequency.
The dog is unlikely to have any inherent resonances as it has little or no
elastic characteristics and very little inertia.
I suggest that the buzz frequency of a well adjusted dog is equal to the
string frequency or a binary sub multiple thereof.
Remember that the buzz is generated by repetitive impacts and will be more
like a series of very sharp spikes which will have few harmonics in the
region of the string frequency which is why it is difficult to recognise as
a "note".
How about some cool research with a pickup or small directional mike very
close to the dog and look at the waveform with and without the dog sounding,
we should be able to see the contribution from the dog. I would expect to
see spikes at a frequency related to the string frequency.
If you have a badly sounding dog for whatever reason, you get a lower
frequency rattle (half the string frquency ?) rather than a crisp buzz.
Graham
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:45:42 +0100
From: Demon <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [HG] More on the chien
I contacted a friend (and fellow gurdy player) and copied your email to him.
He's a Dr Daniel wolverson (physics at Bath University UK). He and some of
his students did some research (using lasers I think). He said:
----------
Interesting discussion below- yes, I had a student project on this. It all
looks correct. The string displacements are large- we measured them quite a
long way from the chien but a couple of mm is perfectly possible. The
tapping rate of the chien is indeed the same as the fundamental frequency of
vibration of the string; we demonstrated this experimentally. However, if
you turn the wheel faster, you can also observe the chien making a double
hit as it lands, bounces, and hits again. It is however not correct to
ignore the fact that the belly plate is vibrating and so is sometimes coming
upwards to meet the chien! This can change the chien sound depending on
whether you have a G or a D drone, for example. One big surprise was just
how much the wheel speed had to increase in order to set off the chien on
our (quite normally playable) model gurdy. Depending on the adjuster, the
wheel speed sometimes needs almost to double- in other words, not a subtle
increase in speed, and very remarkable that the player can make it average
out to a fixed number of rpm to fit the music. So there you go... Peter
Dobbins (Aust organiser) has now joined us at Bath Physics and is proposing
to offer a student project this year on the acoustics of the gurdy bridge.
So the work may continue!
----------
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:51:45 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Stick-slipping dog ?
Thanks to everyone who has spent so much time pondering my initial
questions. The number and quality of the responses is very impressive.
> If you buzz the trompette WHILE tuning the string, the buzz frequency
> clearly tracks the changing note, try it.
That is true and I suspect more and more that the conclusion that the buzz
and the string frequency are one and the same is correct, although it is
conceivable that raising the string pitch could raise the dog pitch in a
non-linear manner.
> The buzz frequency must therefore be a function of the string frequency.
Is it a function solely of the string frequency, or are there other
variables? If the dog pitch does correlate to the string pitch exactly then
this would be the case.
> As the dog is being exited by the vibrating string, so its frequency is very
> likely to be closely related to the string frequency.
> The dog is unlikely to have any inherent resonances as it has little or no
> elastic characteristics and very little inertia.
> I suggest that the buzz frequency of a well adjusted dog is equal to the
> string frequency or a binary sub multiple thereof.
This is what I was getting at last week when suggesting that if a trompette
string were tuned to 440 that it might be that the dog pitch could be 220,
146.667, 110, etc. It is conceivable that the dog could be a sub-harmonic.
We just don't know enough about the mechanism to say for sure if there isn't
some way for sub-harmonic activation. (Goodness, this is starting to sound
like a bad instance of Star Trek's "techno talk".)
> Remember that the buzz is generated by repetitive impacts and will be more
> like a series of very sharp spikes which will have few harmonics in the
> region of the string frequency which is why it is difficult to recognise as
> a "note".
I hadn't thought about that as affecting the perception. This may well be
why no one really knows what the pitch correlation is.
> How about some cool research with a pickup or small directional mike very
> close to the dog and look at the waveform with and without the dog sounding,
> we should be able to see the contribution from the dog. I would expect to
> see spikes at a frequency related to the string frequency.
Sounds easier than my strobe idea as we would have to be looking at a very
small movement indeed. So now we need someone with an oscilloscope to look
at the dog question.
> If you have a badly sounding dog for whatever reason, you get a lower
> frequency rattle (half the string frquency ?) rather than a crisp buzz.
On the tekero if the drone string tension is low enough you do get something
lower than the string frequency - something like 4 or 5 clicks per second,
slow enough that you perceive them as distinct taps, even though the string
is sounding at a distinct perceivable pitch. (If it were vibrating at 4 or 5
cycles per second we couldn't hear the string.) So, at least under some
circumstances you are certainly correct.
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:07:26 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Jeesus,
what am I dooing without knowing it!!
Ages ago I was studiing engeneerings, I'll try to find this hidden section
of my brain to understand this.
But anyway, a really great job you did there.
Thanks!!
Helmut
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:10:51 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
So there is a physics project on it! Good.
One question, if you could forward it to your friend, is about the double
bounce:
Does the bounce yield a pitch double the string pitch or does it result in a
"noisy" sound with uneven beat rhythm? I have tried to recreate this on my
tekerő and have not noticed a difference in the dog sound no matter how fast
I crank. Maybe it works only on the French style bridge?
-Arle
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:54:24 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] More on the chien
I sure hope we can keep up with this study! Peter Dobbins was contributing
to the Hurdy-Gurdy Society (Great Britain) newsletters just before they
stopped coming - he was just getting to the interesting part,
too! Perhaps we can get "the rest of the story."
~ Matt
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:31:18 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: [HG] NEWS for the gurdy-folks
Hello List,
I am glad to tell you that my cottoning assistent is finished ans put into
the net.. You can find it under www.gotschy.com service and repairs.
You also can listen to some tunes played by Riccardo Delfino.
Enjoy it!
Greetings
Helmut
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:12:42 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] new questions, and notes on an old thread
Hello list--
I am happy to say that my new HG, a galician-strung zanfona (g' g' g c
G) arrived from Spain on wednseday, safe and sound. another HG on the
northa american continent...i'll get new pictures up as soon as i can.
the instrument came over in a heavily padded hard case, very
coffin-like. it was actually a foot-locker type chest with foam, with
the shape cut out. i am looking for a custom hard case, rather
form-fitting; i would get a soft case. do folks have preferences, with
decent prices and possibly contact info?
regarding the old thread: some time ago, after one of my initial
postings about Iberian HGs, I mentioned something about lutebody HGs
having more sound than most guitar body HGs, and that the latter were
especially suited for chamber music. I was countered on both grounds,
but I was pretty sure I hwasn't just making it up--so I managed to find
the place that I had gotten my info from originally:
From Bouin's "La Vielleuse Habile", Article VII, par 2: (my translation
of the French; I'll be happy to send the original if this is poor...)
"There are two kinds of vielles. The ones are made with a lute body, and
the others with a guitar body. Those which are made with a lute body
have a greater harmony (sic), and produce more sound. Those which on the
other hand are made with a guitar body have less harmony, and produce
less sound; nevertheless they have their own particular merit, in that
they are sweeter and less boisterous than the vielles with a lute body,
and for the chamber they are more graceful."
By "chamber" (chambre) I understood "room," "chamber" as in "chamber
music"; this would at least have supported my thought that lute body
instruments were a bit better for outdoor events (notice "Les Gâs du
Berry"; playing outdoors: no guitar body HGs in sight.
Well, nonetheless, i hold both kinds near to me in affection!
cheers for now,
Vlad
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:49:26 +0100
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] NEWS for the gurdy-folks
On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 09:31:18PM +0200, Helmut Gotschy wrote:
> I am glad to tell you that my cottoning assistent is finished ans put into
> the net.. You can find it under www.gotschy.com service and repairs.
Thanks Helmut, that's a great set of pages.
I have one question. You say that it's important for the strings to be
"switched on" (I would say "engaged") and in contact with the wheel when
applying rosin. Why is that?
I was taught to take all the strings off before applying rosin, hold the
edge of the block lightly against the wheel -- imagine doubling its
weight -- and turn the wheel quite quickly 2 or 3 times. If that results
in a shiny new facet on the block, then the right amount of rosin was
applied. (Probably.)
Thanks again,
Dave
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:52:54 +0100
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 12:54:24PM -0400, Matthew Szostak wrote:
> I sure hope we can keep up with this study! Peter Dobbins was contributing
> to the Hurdy-Gurdy Society (Great Britain) newsletters just before they
> stopped coming - he was just getting to the interesting part,
> too! Perhaps we can get "the rest of the story."
Does anyone have copies of the HG Society newsletters that they'd be
prepared to photocopy for me? I would of course pay for the copying and
the postage.
Thanks in advance.
Dave
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:49:21 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] NEWS for the gurdy-folks
Hello Dave,
thank you for this question!!
There aresome different meanings about that subjects.
I am convinced to keep some strings engaged to the wheel when you apply
solid rosin!
1. you can hear the result when there is enough rosin. The amount of rosin
depends on so many things like string pressure, number of strings you play
with, hardness of rosin, temerature and humidity and applying pressure. This
is not valid when you use liquid rosin. Then all strings have to be off the
wheel!!!
2. The solid rosin makes some fine dust when it touches the surface of the
whel which will not be sticking to the wheel, it is free. As the drone
strings are quite sluggish to vibrate, short and thick, they can have some
more friction power. You cannot give this from the wheel as the melody will
sound distorted and rough when there is more rosin. So it is perfect when
the free dust of rosin is soaked into the cotton of the drone(s). Also the
free dust cannot go to the cotton of the melody, therefore you always put
you block of rosin after the melody.
I think I will add this extended explanations to my website.
Rotating for you
Helmut
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:01:28 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] More on the chien
Dave and others--
there is a particular article that I am looking for in one of those newsletters;
if this copying does happen, I'd be happy to pay for copying and postage of that
particular issue.
the article i am looking for is by Julio Garcia Bilbao, about the spanish HG --
I believe it may have been published sometime between 1995 and 2000, in case
someone catches this while copying.
thanks,
Vlad
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:12:40 -0700
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
>So there is a physics project on it! Good.
What you said ;-)
>One question, if you could forward it to your friend, is about the double
>bounce:
>
>Does the bounce yield a pitch double the string pitch or does it result in a
>"noisy" sound with uneven beat rhythm? I have tried to recreate this on my
>tekerő and have not noticed a difference in the dog sound no matter how fast
>I crank. Maybe it works only on the French style bridge?
I think it's inherent in the dog, regardless of "nationality" - but wait,
maybe not - read on and hypothesize for yourself:
Bear in mind that this is a hypothesis, not a theory, because I don't have
any data to back it:
Consider the relationship of the motion of the transverse wave in the
string, the wheel surface, and the lifting dog.
The sequence of events:
- the string is at rest, in the "resting position"
- the wheel is moved
- the string sticks to the moving wheel - this is the "stick"
- the string is lifted (stretched) in the direction of the wheel motion
("up"), i.e. above the resting position
- the transverse wave starts to move through the string in both directions,
toward the nut and the chien
- when it gets to the chien, it starts to lift it up (which it can do
because the chien is not fixed) - consequently the energy from this
transverse wave is NOT reflected, because it goes into lifting the chien
- when the transverse wave reaches the nut, it is reflected back, because
the nut is fixed. Some small amount of energy is probably lost in this
reflection, but not enough to be of interest here
- this reflected transverse wave is below the resting position, and moves
back toward the wheel
- when it reaches the wheel, the force overcomes the friction of the wheel
- this is the "slip"
- the transverse wave continues, somewhat weakened by the energy it
expended overcoming the frictional force, until it encounters the chien,
which is raised above the soundboard
- it expends most of its energy to push the chien down
- the little energy that remains is reflected back toward the wheel, and
the cycle starts again
Here there are several possibilities as to why the chien taps twice:
1) It's simply a bounce on the soundboard
2) It could bounce more, but it only has time to bounce twice before the
next transverse wave lifts the chien again
3) I had thought that it might be the product of some energy from the
transverse wave being transmitted beyond the chien to the region of the
string between the chien and the tirant, but I now realize that the
reflection from such a wave would be reveresed, and so would be going in
the wrong direction to produce a second downward motion
-Alden
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:57:45 +0100
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
I have editions 4, 5 and 6 (Jan 85, Autumn 85 and Sep 86) of Sinfonye, the
journal of the Hurdy Gurdy Society, if that's any help.
Ruthie
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:02:50 +0200
From: cor westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: [HG] appelation controlee
Hi list
there's a fantastic cd by the dutch band " Appellation Controlee" for
sale on ebay at the moment.
Right now the high bid is only one dollar because nobody bid on this
item.
Really great hurdy gurdy music !
I wonder , did nobody see it ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=906382482
Groetjes,
Cor Westbroek
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:26:45 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] appelation controlee
I fixed it.
judith
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:32:48 EDT
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] History
In a message dated 9/13/2002 11:54:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
bmwlen _at_ alltel.net writes:
<< I would like to learn more about this Old Sarah
the HG Player History. Please advise. >>
Dear Len~~
Here is a webpage which, if you scroll it down, is of Henry Mayhew's
article on Old Sarah. Henry Mayhew contributed articles to the newspaper in
which he spoke to members of the all street professions in Victorian London,
and then transcribed their personal statements. The entirety has been
collected in several volumes, and is one of the most amazing anthrological
resources ever. Volume III has to be the best, because it is all about street
entertainers. Old Sarah is one of the blind street musicians, and has to be
one of the most remarkable stories in the collection.
http://nils.lib.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2000.01.0028&layout=&loc=159
Someone also gave me a website that has an article on blind hurdy-gurdy
players in Russia, who were a national institution:
http://www.brama.com/art/kobzar997.html
Enjoy,
Alice
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:45:15 +0100
From: David <david.bawden _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
There is a picture of Old Sarah in the book holding a hurdy-gurdy. The
web-site reproduces pictures from London Labour and the London Poor although I
have had no success getting them to show on my computer!
Does anyone know where Old Sarah could have got her hurdy-gurdy from? Between
the early middle ages and the depictions of symphonies in varius English
churches and cathedrals and the modern makers of HGs, there seems to be a gap
of 600 or 700 hundred years of English makers. But surely some must have been
made? Why else does the hurdy-gurdy have such a strange name unlike the more
literal names used in other countries, if it was not once more popular and
well-known? Or were the HGs that were played imported from France? Old Sarah's
HG, from memory, is a rather wide Bosch style HG, not a traditional Frech
lute-back.
David
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:02:32 +0100
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Photos of the Haddenham workshop
If anyone would like to see pictures (and even hear a couple of sound
files!) of the recent workshop held at Haddenham, Cambs, I'm delighted to
announce that they are now on a website at
http://bramley.family.users.btopenworld.com
Apologies for the size of some of the files! Please let me know if you find
any problems with the site.
Cheers
Ruthie
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Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:09:54 -0700
From: Fiddlers <mdfiddler _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
re: Old Sarah - thanks for the reference.
I thought it interesting that the account notes that she went through four
instruments, refers to it's proper name as the cymbal, and has a long list
of tunes she played.
I haven't managed to get the images to work yet either, rats.
Marjy
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 00:16:48 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] una preguntita rapida
Hola Wenceslao--
una preguntita sobre Jota--żdonde esta vendiendo sus CDs? żlo esta
haciendo por internet o correo, asi a lo independiente, o los tiene
editados (pero como aqui estamos en un regimen aislacionista, ya sabes,
nada de nada de musica de fuera...)? me gustaria comprarle algunos.
que tal el tiempo en portugal? coimbra no debe estar mal, algo asi como
leon, żno? bueno, no tengo ni idea.
hasta pronto--
Bloyu
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:16:22 -0700
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Matt said:
>I'm too tired to follow the details of the math tonight, but you've come
>to results which it seems you expected. So what is it about the result
>which makes you doubt your original idea?
I am not quite sure why I rejected the idea that the dog was tapping at the
same rate that the string was vibrating. I had done some Fourier analysis
studies to see if I could identify the tapping rate, and while they were
very interesting, they didn't show a different rate, which was what I was
expecting. I think I expected something slower, though on reflection I
don't know why.
When you suggested that the tapping rate was the same, I did some quick
calculations based just on the frequency and the turning speed. Not having
found the University of New South Wales webpage, I made the assumption that
a stick-slip cycle was equal parts stick and slip, which at the turning
speed I was using yielded a much higher displacement, like 5 mm or
something. I was quite sure that the string wasn't stretching that far, so
I rejected the rate = frequency idea. It wasn't until I found the webpage
that it all started to make more sense.
Alden
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:32:27 -0700
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
>Or were the HGs that were played imported from France? Old Sarah's
>HG, from memory, is a rather wide Bosch style HG, not a traditional Frech
>lute-back.
One report that I remember reading (but don't remember where...) said that
she went through several of them in her lifetime - she wore them
out! ;-) Given the time period, I'd put my bet on French instruments
crossing from Brittany.
Alden
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:07:37 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
Alden & Cali Hackmann wrote:
>
> >Or were the HGs that were played imported from France? Old Sarah's
> >HG, from memory, is a rather wide Bosch style HG, not a traditional Frech
> >lute-back.
> Given the time period, I'd put my bet on French instruments
> crossing from Brittany.
Why ?
hurdy gurdies were traditional music instruments in wide parts of europe
at the beginning of the nineteenth century and popular also as
instrument for begging and basking.
For reasons I do not understand I cannot view the picture, but if the
description 'rather wide Bosch style HG' is'nt too far from reality this
does not fit specially to usual french and breton instruments of this
period.
Why do I object ?
I find important to be carefull with hypothetic statements which feature
the hurdy gurdy as something 'french'. It is something widely european.
For example there are at least about 70-90 historical hurdy gurdies in
austrian museum-collections alone. So if there is no positive evidence,
I see no reason to assume french fabrication for a mid-nineteenth
century hurdy gurdy outside france.
So, what is the evidence for your bet ?
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna Austria
--
... , aus zeitmangel und infolge widriger verhaeltnisse verlaesst die
mehrzahl der menschen diese welt, ohne ueber sie nachgedacht zu haben.
Einigen wiederum, die das zu tun versuchen, wird schwindelig, und sie
beschaeftigen sich mit etwas anderem.
Stanislaw Lem, Hundertsiebenunddreissig Sekunden
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:06:50 -0700
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
Hi. I read the piece regarding blind Sarah, then went on to read the
rest of the collection and and then trtried to find the book about the
tradition of blind musicians in Russia. All very interesting. In the
short bio of Old Sarah it says she sat for a portrait. Do you know the
name of the book in which those portraits are collected? It sounds s if
someone was collecting pictures of all the street musicins for some sort
of record. Thanks. Joan
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:40:56 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] OOPs language slip
Hi folks--sorry! i replied to the whole list instead of just Wenceslao.
my apologies!
Cheers,
Vlad
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:03:09 EDT
From: HobgoblinH _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] History
In a message dated 9/15/2002 10:08:04 AM Central Daylight Time,
jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com writes:
<< Do you know the name of the book in which those portraits are collected?
It sounds s if someone was collecting pictures of all the street musicins for
some sort of record. >>
Dear Joan~~
This is a multi-volume work, London Labour and the London Poor, by Henry
Mayhew. It is a collection of articles he submitted to the newspaper over a
series of years. For the purpose of these articles, he sought out a
representative of every single street or lower class profession in London:
rat catcher, fly paper maker, rat-pit proprietor, mudlark, black minstrel,
tumbler, street magician, sewer scourer, street reciter, silhouette cutter,
juggler, street harpist, and so on. He interviewed one of each of these, and
faithfully wrote down their statements. He tries to intrudes very little of
his personal views, although he gives a visual description of each. In some
cases, he has their portrait done for the paper. The one of Sarah is very
remarkable. The reason I have this is that as a puppeteer, I knew that one of
the very few authentic Victorian Punch and Judy scripts was in it. The
collection is available through Dover books in facsimile. Every university
will have a copy. In some cases, it is one of the most startling indictments
of human indifference; in others, it is a view into the amazing resilience
and courage of mankind in adversity. Volume III is the one dealing with
street entertainers.
Alice
Hobgoblin Hill Puppets
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:03:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
--- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> wrote:
> I am not quite sure why I rejected the idea that the dog was tapping
> at the
> same rate that the string was vibrating. ... I think I expected
> something slower, though on reflection, I don't know why.
I think I know why. Intuition sez that the greater mass of the string +
dog in motion would drop the pitch or vibration rate vs that of the
string without the dog (in motion).
My guess is that since anything that happens with the string is
transmitted thru the dog, the dog is in motion whether it's buzzing or
not. That, of course, raises a bunch of other questions I'm not ready
to verbalize yet.
Later,
Roy T.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:54:42 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Roy Trotter wrote:
>
Hello,
>
> I think I know why. Intuition sez that the greater mass of the string +
> dog in motion would drop the pitch or vibration rate vs that of the
> string without the dog (in motion).
> My guess is that since anything that happens with the string is
> transmitted thru the dog, the dog is in motion whether it's buzzing or
> not. That, of course, raises a bunch of other questions I'm not ready
> to verbalize yet.
it seems to be a common observation that the pitch of the string *does*
drop while the chien is buzzing: my personal opinion is that this
happens because of the extra vibrating lenght of string 'right' of the
chien and eventually the weight of the chien (not sure about this:
depending on the question whether it is more pendulum or string). This
doesn't really bother the idea that the basic frequence of the buzz and
the string are related, maybe the same.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:06:09 -0700
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Roy,
The question that bothers me is where is the node ?
The chien is the trompette bridge which defines the trompette sounding
length and pitch
When the chien is in motion, the node of the string must be slightly nearer
the tirant
The trompette sounding length must be longer when buzzing and the trompette
should go flat
I think I can just hear this and my tuning meter tells me the same, about
5cents flat on a D trompette when buzzing
The harder you buzz the flatter the pitch but its not linear, it jumps very
flat (20 cents) with extreme (nasty) buzz
Graham Whyte
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:31:42 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
I wonder if the property of the chien itself, that of a small pivoting
node point (as in your pendulum, Roy) with a bias for where the tirant
or wheel pull it, respectively, help create a situation where it is not
a hindrance )dampening) to the fundamental of the trompette string. just
a guess...
cheers,
Vlad
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:53:55 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] History Cases
Does anyone know if this 3rd vol is still in print thru Dover?
Vlad
PS: has anyone had a chance to recommend any hard and soft case makers?
i have gotten in touch with Cavallaro and Blue Heron; anyone have any
thoughts one the two?
thanks,
Vlad
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:41:58 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] History Cases
Vlad:
Try www.moderncase.com
judith
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:41:36 -0400
From: Timothy S. Hall <hallt _at_ louisville.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] History Cases
For hard cases, try http://www.kingham.co.uk. I have one of their cases for
my bass viol, and it's about the best you can buy. They do custom work.
Tim
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:43:41 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] History Cases
At 12:53 PM 9/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if this 3rd vol is still in print thru Dover?
Try this:
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486219356.html
or this:
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486219364.html
Each entry says it's a two volume set, but one shows the cover of volume 2,
and the other volume 3...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:11:52 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] HG Society Newsletters (was: More on the chien)
It's been awhile, but last I knew Michael Muskett had the complete archive
of newsletters for sale.
Why not check with him: michaelmuskett _at_ beeb.net
~ Matt
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:16:43 -0500
From: Wolodymyr Joseph Smishkewych <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG Society Newsletters (was: More on the chien)
Thanks all for the suggestions on cases, dover and HGS newsletters!
an appreciative
Vlad
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:20:45 -0700
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
There is an engraving of Old Sarah in Susan Palmer's book The Hurdy
Gurdy. It's quite a clear illustration and the instrumentshe's
holding is of the flat backed, rectangular Henri III type, complete
with cylindrical stays connecting the shoulders to the pegbox. One
would presume the instrument was over 100 years old when Old Sarah
had it.
Juan
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:49:08 -0400
From: Allan Janus <allan.janus _at_ verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
I have copies of all four volumes somewhere in the house. If I can
track it down, I'll scan the portrait of Old Sarah. The engravings
that appeared in the books were made from dagerreotypes made by
Richard Beard - I don't think that they've ever been found. The only
other portrait of musicians that I can recall is of a band of
black-face minstrels. The interview with one of the minstrels is
great. The "Galante So" web site has several other Mayhew passages;
but they deal with street photographers. Scroll down the page to find
them, although there's much else of interest on the site:
http://www.jhenry.demon.co.uk/galantee.htm
Also, a bit on Henry Mayhew:
http://www.jhenry.demon.co.uk/mayhew3.htm
Allan Janus
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:16:53 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] Key spacing measurements
I recall that recently, there was a discussion about measurements for
cutting the key slots in a keybox. I had planned on saving the messages,
but I seem to have deleted them. There were some good suggestions about
scale length, etc., and also some measurements given. Henry was involved...
I've gotten a request for advice about key spacing, and I can't think of a
better reply than what was discussed here. I could just provide my own,
but I use a template I made up, and I don't know the exact
measurements. Anyway, the template is at the shop, not here in my office.
Would someone be willing to forward the message(s) in question to me off list?
~ Matt
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:25:33 -0700
From: Joan D'Andrea <jeepstr42 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] History
Thanks Juan. Is there a picture on the net? Joan
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:29:59 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
> it seems to be a common observation that the pitch of the string *does*
> drop while the chien is buzzing: my personal opinion is that this
> happens because of the extra vibrating lenght of string 'right' of the
> chien and eventually the weight of the chien (not sure about this:
> depending on the question whether it is more pendulum or string). This
> doesn't really bother the idea that the basic frequence of the buzz and
> the string are related, maybe the same.
>
> regards,
>
> Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
>
I know this problem very well, I have realized that you can minimize the
"pitchdown" by changing the angle when the string runs from the dog to the
edge of the body. When the string tends to run towards the tailpiece you
allow the string to loose tension when buzzing, when the string runs the
other direction you have to take care that the tension of the
regulation-string will not become too high. You can try this with different
(small) nuts at the edge of the body.
Helmut
AD*MAIOREM*GLORIAM*LIRAE
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:48:24 -0700
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG Society Newsletters (was: More on the chien)
>It's been awhile, but last I knew Michael Muskett had the complete archive
>of newsletters for sale.
If the archive copies are available, we'd like to get a set also. Would
someone be interested in coordinating an order if Michael still has
them? We could save on international postage (and only one person would
need to be bothering Michael instead of a bunch of us.)
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:44:21 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Bryan TOLLEY <Bryan.Tolley _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: [HG] vielle for sale
Hello Everyone,
I will be coming over from France to the OTW festival with a new instrument to
sell if anyone is interested. Details can be found in my site; just look in
the index under "Vielle ŕ Vendre" or "Hurdy-Gurdy for Sale". The address is
http://www.bryan-tolley.com
Looking forward to meeting my friends again in Washington in the near future.
Cheers
Bryan Tolley
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:17:16 +0100
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] History Cases
> For hard cases, try http://www.kingham.co.uk. I have one of
> their cases for
> my bass viol, and it's about the best you can buy. They do
> custom work.
>
They do hurdy cases - I have one. It's fine, but could possibly be a
little stronger. My other case by Savage & Hoy is fibreglass and stronger
(& heavier), and takes my weight when sat on with ease. Sometimes useful
for busking!
Peter.
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:16:14 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] History Cases
Hey everyone-
I'm VERY interested in buying a case that would ensure that my Gotschy
lute-back would survive as airline luggage. Since I'm also a violinist,
the hg would have to be shipped or fly below....
But that website (http://www.kingham.co.uk) doesn't seems to work...
does any one know the right address or if there are other or better
cases??
Thanks and Aloha!!
Don
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:33:16 -0400
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] vielle for sale
Brian, bring me a tape, too...will you?
Thanks,
Judith
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:29:31 +0100
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: [HG] Amta tunes
The issue No.1,2000 from Philippe Besson is now available.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:06:17 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hmm.
I actually don't think it is the case that the entire string length from
tirant to the top of the trompette is vibrating. This is the only way I can
see for the node to shift towards the tirant, or am I missing something?
Graham notes a pitch shift of maximum 20 cents flat. Based on some rough
calculations I did, on a typical gurdy if the entire string length from
tirant on up were vibrating the pitch shift would be approximately 3 quarter
tones, something approaching 150 cents, which would be immediately
detectable without a tuner and would sound horrible, to put it mildly.
So I think that some other mechanism accounts for the pitch differential
Graham observes, and I think Helmut's observation probably accounts for it
as what he explains would probably be in the few cents range since it would
be a slight *slackening* of string tension.
Incidentally, I notice no shift on my tekerő, but the construction of the
dogged drone string is such that everything stays pretty much in a plane
with the soundboard (it has a tail stock for the drone string that raises
the string's end), so there is no way for the dog to loosen the string at
any point. Were it a longer string length that causes a pitch shift, this
pitch shift would be noticeable no matter what the string configuration
were.
So I think Helmut explains this and I don't think the string between the
chien and the tirant plays a factor in the pitch determination.
Of course I could be entirely wrong.
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:47:55 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG Society Newsletters (was: More on the chien)
>If the archive copies are available, we'd like to get a set also. Would
>someone be interested in coordinating an order if Michael still has
>them? We could save on international postage (and only one person would
>need to be bothering Michael instead of a bunch of us.)
>
>Alden
I'll try to contact him and find out what, if anything, is available...
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:57:44 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hi, I can't find the word triant in any dictionary, what the hell does it
mean??
Helmut
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:09:45 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Isn't that the string that goes to the chanterelle to control the
sensitivity of the chien? I play tekerő and so don't have one of those, so
if I am wrong, that's my excuse ;-) (Tekerős use a level that directly
applies downward pressure on the string to keep the dog on the soundboard,
so I have no direct experience with the French-style controls.
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:22:06 -0700
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Its TIRANT not TRIANT, I think it means "something that pulls" from the
french verb tirer - to pull
Its the trompette adjusting cord.
The part of the string between the chien and the tirant DOES vibrate when
you buzz, I just felt it.
I agree that this part of the string is far too long to correlate with the
observed pitch shift but it does vibrate, maximum next to the chien, nothing
next to the tirant.
Graham Whyte
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:03:38 +0200
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hello,
I belive 'tirant' is a french word, used by english-speaking players.
Graham Whyte wrote:
> The part of the string between the chien and the tirant DOES vibrate when
> you buzz, I just felt it.
>
> I agree that this part of the string is far too long to correlate with the
> observed pitch shift but it does vibrate, maximum next to the chien, nothing
> next to the tirant.
I made a device that fixes a node 'right' of the chien and and at the
same time adjusts the pressure on the string which determines the tempo
at which the chien starts to buzz. If the node is to near to the chien
the buzz is disturbed by the fixed node. But the distance needed for a
free sound of the trompette is less than the point where the tirant
usually pulls (the change of the string pitch was still audible).
I belive that in normal live the node is somewhere between the tirant
and the chien, not fixed but dependent on string flexibility, chien
activity, sound activities.
I think someone should make a device that is a trompette-string with a
wheel where both nodes can be adjusted freely (no tirant neccessary)
and an free adjustable chien bed. This is not very complicate to make
and could be used in a number of very informative tests.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:12:27 -0700
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Key spacing,
Hi Matt ,
The ultimate in key spacing method is the program
made by Daniel Frouvelle
here is a description of it ( in french ) on Xavier Aime w site
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle/construc/frouvc.html
Load the program , get to the description window,
place the numbers of your choice , send everything
to D. Frouvelle ( with s few $$ , very few actually )
and he sends beack to you the keyboard plans of even plans
for the whole lute back of desired shape .
The simplest method is the one used by Herman Dewit
for the Flemish gurdy : first fit the sticks in the key holes ,
then place a long strip of wood , with a groove in it ,
over the sticks ( I mean the key shafts ) glue with
something gap filling ( Epoxy , Poly etc.)
and cut the key as you like them .
More traditionnal is to copy from a museum drawing
personnally I set my choice on the Jenzat spacing as it
is the more popular these days ( the spacing of the Lasnier
is more elegant , I admit ) There are no hard rules,
the Hungarian spacing is a good exemple .
As for cutting the key slots in the key box ,
I tried the Delta mortizing kit , I found it a very
interesting experience but there are a few problems
Using the mortizing kit is not as easy as it looks on paper
to make clean holes you must first find a good quality
Austrian made chisel , not the Taiwan one that comes with the kit.
Then find a conical sharpening stone , the chisel is ( like most tools
on the market ) not really well sharpened out of the box.
( Lee Valley sells the proper stone )
The set up of the tool takes a long time ( for unexperienced hands
at least ) and finally , even the Austrian made tool comes only in
imperial size , so there is no logical choice other than 1/4"
wich at least for easthetic reason , looks small for anything other
than a Baroque guitar HG , and is still quite big for the
B-C hole spacing . I came to the conclusion that it may be a good
system fot a factory but I will go back to the 3 pieces glued up
system next time .
Henry
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:36:32 +0200
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hi Graham, I meant tirant, I just spelled wrong, sorry!
Hi Arle, you cannot compare a tekeroe with a French or whatever style hg,
the buzzing system is reverse on the Hungarian ones.
On a french style the string presses the dog down and you control the right
action with the tirant ( we actually have no word for this in German, oh...
maybe Simon has one, gell Simon ;-)), on the Hungarian ones the angle of the
string lifts the dog up and this little piece of wood, I will call it
"spoon" presses the dog down for the action. But for the pitchdown problem
it will be probably the same reason:
The string is loosing tension when it is "on the buzz".
Try to change the angle between dog and edge, there you can control most of
the pitchdown!!
I did it quite a few times on my early gurdies.
Helmut
AD*MAIOREM*GLORIAM*LIRAE
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:11:46 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
This business about tirants and levers to control the buzz is interesting,
but as usual, there's more to the story...
How about the arrangement my Jean-Luc Bleton which has neither of these
things? I've only ever seen it in action on Pierre Imbert's black
hurdy-gurdy; some sort of moving capo mechanism near the NUT (tuning head
end) which can be manipulated to adjust the buzz in the way the the above
mentioned devices do.
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:54:51 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
I think we need to distinguish between two vibrations here, and I think that
will help.
First is the vibration that produces the sound of the trompette as a drone.
This should be pretty straightforward, just like any other drone string.
Second is an arc-shaped oscillation of the whole string along an axis
running from tirant (or somewhere around it) to the head with its maximum
arc swing at the chien. This would not produce sound itself (although the
striking of the chien at one end of the arc would) as it is a *different*
sort of oscillation, albeit related to the first in that it appears that its
period is identical to number one and triggered by it).
> The part of the string between the chien and the tirant DOES vibrate when
> you buzz, I just felt it.
That makes perfect sense as the chien is moving and the string moves with
it. (This is motion vibration number 2) This I suspect that the issue is
that the part above the chien is engaged in a string vibration motion like
on any stringed instrument (#1), while the motion you observe is moving the
string itself through space, but not contributing to the sound of the
string. (Although it could. I don't know enough about this to say for sure.)
The pitch shift observed is a result of the fact that the idealized
description for number 2 above is simplified. Rather than describing a
circular arc, the reality may be different different for many instruments
since the chien's pivot may *not* be on the axis of string movement and in
most cases this will contribute to variable string tension depending on
where the string is in the arc described by the chien. Five to twenty cents
would be a possible result of this if the design were such that on the
upswing of the dog it entered into a state where the string length/tension
were lower than when the chien is resting against the strike plate. The
pitch the string achieves probably would be determined by the average of the
pitch when the dog is at rest and the pitch when it is at its farthest point
from the soundboard.
Graham, if you're willing to confirm this (or prove me full of hot hair),
would you try the following on your instrument? (I can't do it on mine since
I can't get the pitch change you describe.)
Start cranking your instrument at a slow constant speed (no buzzing) and
then with you other hand raise the chien bridge up manually. I'm almost
willing to bet that you will find a pitch shift in your chanterelle string
of somewhere between five and ten cents when you raise the chien. (I would
find none for mine since the design is very different and the pivot of the
dog bridge is almost perfectly in line with the point on the tail stock
where the string leaves the body and where it reenters at the head of the
instrument. This would explain why you observe the pitch change, why I
don't, and why Helmut has observed what he has.
- Arle
P. S. I just saw Simon's posting on this same topic. He holds that the node
is between the tirant and the chien.
I actually would suspect that the vibrational node (not the axis points I
describe above for #2) is fixed where the string makes contact with the
chien. Although the chien does some strange things, I really suspect that in
this regard it functions as any other bridge would, and no other bridge
would push the terminal vibration node past itself (in fact I can see no way
it would do so unless it were put precisely on a harmonic node for the
string). So, although I defer to Simon in most everything, I do suspect that
he is wrong here. (But I could, of course, be wrong.)
As Simon points out, all this could be experimentally determined. Maybe we
need to get that physics grad student to build Simon's test bed and try all
this out.
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:03:30 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hi Helmut,
I can't create the "pitchdown" to start with, so I have no need to control
it ;-) It wasn't on my tekerő that it was happening...
I was responding to Graham's description, and I believe you entirely on the
cause, since your explanation accounts for all the facts nicely (especially
the 5 to 20 cent change in pitch), whereas the pitchdown would be too great
(~150 cent) if Graham's original idea were the cause. But I have just
proposed a test for Graham that should resolve this. Let's see what he
returns (if he's willing to try the little experiment).
And yes, you are of course right that the dogs are not directly comparable,
although in this case I think you are right that the pitching down is not
specific to either style, but rather has to do with the geometry of the
parts. As such a system that makes sure the pivot of the chien and the ends
of the string are in a line should reduce, if not entirely eliminate, the
shifting down in pitch Graham describes, at least if I followed your
description correctly.
Best,
Arle
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:45:37 -0400
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Why would the string vibration NOT extend past the tirant? It secures the
trompette string, to a degree, but the tension of the tirant is "sideways,"
whereas the string vibration caused by the wheel is "up and down." The
tirant, while restricting somewhat the string vibration between chien and
anchored end, is free to move up and down with any vertical movement of the
trompette string. I can simulate this by simply moving the string with my
hand - I can't easily move the string (at the point the tirant attaches)
toward or away from the tailpiece, but I can easily lift the string up,
which is the motion the string vibration is causing.
Speaking of moving strings with hands, I did try your experiment, Arle (as
described below), on a hurdy-gurdy which has the pitch change "problem." I
found no audible change in the pitch. Of course, I didn't lift the chien
much, since when it's buzzing it certainly doesn't lift much either.
Why should the pitch change vary depending on the "angle when the string
runs from the dog to the edge of the body..." as Helmut puts it? Isn't
this what the tirant does?
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:32:17 -0700
From: Graham Whyte <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Arle,
I just tried it on my Colson a Mirecourt French gurdy
No drop in pitch on lifting the chien up to 1mm
I get a buzz as I start to lift but no pitch change even then
Lifting it any higher gives a RISE in pitch as the string tension rises
The vibration in the string between the dog and the tirant when you buzz is
very marked and strong.
Touching this part of the string has little effect on the buzz
There is absolutely no string vibration between the tirant and the string
anchor point
Is there a virtual node a few mm behind the chien ??
When the chien is vibrating at string frequency is it using the tirant
attachment point as a hinge ?
that's what it looks and feels like,
Graham
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:33:00 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Well, the string vibration for any other string is determined by the length
between the bridge and the head. The area beneath the bridge is acoustically
dead. To confirm this put your hand on the area between the bridge and the
tail stock of any string. Unless your have an unusual instrument there will
be no difference in sound. The string will only vibrate in an acoustically
significant manner between the bridge and the nut/top in the section the
wheel is in contact with (or, with keys pressed in between the bridge and
the tangents). The point is that the bridge and the nut or tangents both
serve to limit the vibrating length of the string (and transfer energy in
the case of the bridge).
(Incidentally, the vibrational movement of the string is probably not 2
dimensional. Noise in the system tends to create three-dimensional vibration
envelopes out of 2-dimensional inputs.)
While it is conceivable that the tirant could serve as fixed node on a
string (this is essentially how the scale length of Chinese er hu - 2-string
fiddles - is determined) the presence or a bridge would suggest otherwise.
The er-hu may serve as a valuable comparison. It pulls the strings in
towards the neck but bowing is side to side. Regardless of the direction of
the pull the string harness that serves as the top of the string on an er-hu
absolutely stops the vibrational length of the string and the area above it
has no acoustic significance except that variable finger pressure above the
harness can be used to create vibrato.
(The second image on the page at <http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~ak109/>
shows the harness I refer to somewhat clearly.)
Even in the case of the movable chien bridge I'd be willing to lay money on
it that the area between the tirant and chien does not contribute the string
pitch, but I suppose I could be wrong. I still think that Simon's idea that
the end of the vibrational length of the string is between the tirant and
chien can't work - string vibrational modes require something to fix the end
node. If there is no fixed point the string will move to the lowest energy
state it can, which means moving for longer wavelengths and filling the
available space between physically fixed nodes.
It seems I must be wrong about specific cause of the pitch change problem,
but I still think something else is at stake than the whole string from
tirant on up vibrating since, as I noted, this would result in a pitch
change of about 150 cents (100 to 200), which is way more than anyone has
indicated for the pitch change in question.
Helmut indicates that the problem has something to do with the geometry of
the string and tirant. I am not sure I quite follow him, but I think he has
indicated that something in the motion allows the string to go a little
slack when the bridge starts going. That sounds like something like I
hypothesized, so even if I am wrong about the specifics, I am reasonably
confident that the solution is something similar to what I wanted to try.
Maybe Helmut can clarify the solution a little more and we can figure this
out.
-Arle
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Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:42:41 -0500
From: Arle Lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] More on the chien
Hmmm. It looks more and more like I am wrong (wouldn't be the first or last
time...)
> Arle,
>
> I just tried it on my Colson a Mirecourt French gurdy
>
> No drop in pitch on lifting the chien up to 1mm
> I get a buzz as I start to lift but no pitch change even then
>
> Lifting it any higher gives a RISE in pitch as the string tension rises
>
> The vibration in the string between the dog and the tirant when you buzz is
> very marked and strong.
> Touching this part