Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - December 2000
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 07:33:27 -0000
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Warning to air travellers
>From: Casey Clapp <jenlord _at_ earthlink.net>
>Actually, I did hand-carry my hg in a cloth wrap and lovingly stow it in an
>unused overhead on the flight to the Over The Water festival this year. The
>plane all loaded, the crew buckling folks down... I'm thinking I worried
>for
>naught, when this fat little businessman waddled down the aisle to where I
>was. His only "baggage"? A little briefcase. Which he swung up into the
>overhead and positively jammed in. Meeting resistance (my HG), he hauled it
>back and put some english on it. I launched for his throat when I realized
>he was swinging it up, not placing it under his seat, but too late. He
>stove
>in the side. maybe next time I'll use a very fragile, thin box, labeled
>"cobras".
Here is my suggestion:
just play baroque music with a baroque hurdy-gurdy or other kind of music
with a little gurdy :o)
A little hurdy-gurdy fit perfectly overhead in ALL kind of damned Boeing or
Fokker even with a HARD CASE.
Make your own hard case as little as possible (if you take your instrument
with you, you reaaly don't need lot of padding, so the hardcase could be
just 2 inches larger than the instrument).
You need a hardcase because of those fat little businessmen (sometimes they
are not so little but I don't care, since I'm fat and tall and rude too :o).
In order to be "invisible" at the airport, paint the hardcase in black, and
put 2 backpack style straps on it, then dress a yellow cape with the HG
inside...noone dare to bother you...:o)
ciao
Marcello
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:32:20 -0000
From: Dave Praties <dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Warning to air travellers
Hi Alden, No, it's not a write off, but there is quite a lot of minor
damage, glue lines broken etc. I managed to get it playing well
enough to use with the help of an Indian classical composer friend,
who I phoned when I found the damage. "Hold on" he said, "I know
a luthier, I'll borrow some tools and be right there" He arrived a few
hours later ( after a 150 mile drive ) with a multi-tool and a pot of
white wood glue. Welcome to the third world! I spent all night
working and got it going after a fashion. I've nearly finished building
a neat little electro-accoustic hg, so when that is ready, I will
dismantle the broken lute back, and re-build it. It was never right to
start with, so maybe they did me a favour!!
I managed to miss your article on flying with a hg, but here is a
new slant on getting an over sized instrument into the cabin - On
the return flight I carried it onto the plane and was told it would have
to be taken to the hold. Our choreographer, a fiery tempered Cuban
lady, sat down in the doorway, blocking it, and screamed " We
trusted you bastards, and you smashed our instruments. I'm sitting
here untill you find somewhere safe for it" I've never seen cabin
crew work faster to find a space!
Thanks to all for condolences and shared experiences.
Cheers Dave
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:15:41 -0800
From: jjandr _at_ netzero.net
Subject: Re: [HG] Warning to air travellers
I was travelling with a harp when I must have met your businessman, Casey.
The harp was wrapped in a quilt and stowed in the overhead when the man
appeared with the briefcase. I saw the evil gleam in his eye however, so
when he took his first swing with the briefcase I leaped up and got between
him and the overhead. I told him off severely enough that he ended up
finding a completely different overhead bin for his case, and the harp was
undamaged. My years of giving orders really paid off. That guy didn't want
to mess with me!!
If you label your case "snakes" it Will keep people away. I had a friend
bring my lute to me when I lived in Alaska, and he got so tired of answering
the question of what was in the odd shaped case that he finally just would
say "snakes." After that nobody wanted to talk to him. :-)(don't
forget to punch a few air holes for realism.....)
Joanne
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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 11:47:35 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Damages ,
Bonjour tout le monde ,
As it sometime happens , the absolute opposite solution sometime works:
May I report that my 1999 pilgrimage to St Chartier went without damages
to my HG , thanks to a HUGE case borrowed from Nicolas Boulerice ( from
the group " Montcorbier" ) . Nicolas toured with an electric piano , a HG
and the percussion instrument . Also in the band , Oliviers Demers uses a
guitar ,a violin and a bouzouki. so it is absolutely impossible to bring
everything as hand luggage . On their last tour , the worst dammage was to
Daniel Thonon's accordeon , result of a fall of less than 1m. from a
luggage cart in the hotel lobby .
From my deductions , the to main sources of dammages are the landing on
the floor ( when baggages handlers throws the luggages ) and the
percussion ( even perforation ) when the other luggages land on the
instrument case ( no jokes,Thonon showed me a 1/4" plywood instrument case
with a hole in it ) . Heavy padding ( I mean HEAVY ) also makes it
difficult to the luggage gorilla to throw the case very far . <g> While is
St Chartier the case doubled as a table , a bench and a stepladder, his
real owner also uses it as a personnal stage but I do not have this level
of talent.
The only real problem is the cost of overweight luggage , wich is not that
bad for professionnal musician who just add the cost to the already
horrible cost of a tour, and the weight. For amateurs , well... if you
rent a car it is still not so bad . If one's project is to go busking
thorough Europe with a back-pack and a HG, then do take your instrument as
hand luggage .
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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 11:05:41 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Warning to air travellers
>in the side. maybe next time I'll use a very fragile, thin box,
>labeled
>"cobras".
////////////
yes. :) I was saying that once you are through the
security check point, then I hide it (what ever the
instrument is.) I line up in a small crowd to board. I have
it in a dark case. I wear it on my back and may be drape my
coat somehow. I leave my both hands free so things look
normal. I try to get in quick and plan to use the coat to
hide my object, to sort of block the view. I never load the
thing early in any bin.
I try first to put it covered with a coat, between my feet.
If later they object, I can ask them to put it in the staff
area (they have a regular sort of coat rack near the food
service area,) or even some empty seat somewhere with a seat
belt...I ask with respect, in a nice but assured manner.
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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 12:51:06 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: [HG] . success is
At age 12 . . . success is . . . having friends.
At age 16 . . . success i . . . a drivers license.
At age 20 . . . success is . . having romance.
At age 35 . . . success is . . . having money.
At 42 (me) ... success is ... buying your first hurdy-gurdy.
At age 50 . . . success is . . having money.
At age 60 . . . success is . . having romance.
At age 70 . . . success is. . a drivers license.
At age 75 . . . success is . . . having friends.
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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 21:43:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Neidlinger <noid341 _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Hello....
Hello all,
My name is Robert Neidlinger and am a new member of
this list.
I became interested in Hurdy Gurdies about four or
five years ago and promptly bought up all of the music
that I could get my hands on that include gurdies.
Then I went out and purchase one. A rather poorly
constructed kit. I have yet to get it working in any
manner that you could consider worthwhile, making it
very discouraging to to try and learn. Presently I'm
working on getting a good instrument.
I've also just moved up to the D.C./Maryland area.
So I'm interested in finding anyone in the D.C. area
that would be interested in helping me learn, or
learning together.
Thanks for listening,
Robert
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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:52:25 +1100
From: Earthly Delights <garden _at_ earthlydelights.com.au>
Subject: [HG] New Release with Hurdy Gurdy & Bagpipes & others
"The Lost Dances of Earthly Delights" are being released in Australia
this month - to read more and to enjoy an exhilarating blend of new music
with a Central European, Klezmer, Anglo/Celtic blend visit
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au . Sound clips are being added to the
site (6 there so far) - more new ones will be added over the next few
weeks, so do keep this site bookmarked.
Warmest Regards,
Aylwen Garden
(we may be the only family in Australia with 2 adult hurdy gurdys and 1
child's hurdy gurdy!)
garden _at_ earthlydelights.com.au
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au
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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:33:03 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi Everyone;
I have downloaded several pictures of the Millennium Hurdy to PhotoPoint,
If you would to view them go to this link. Your opinions are always
appreciated.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1378825&a=10290662
and Yes the color is wine and yellow as the woods used are purple heart
and yellow heart.
Bruce
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Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:34:03 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi ,
Just after a quick look I see the modified key box , the structure on
top of the bridge and the modified geometry of the pegbox , but I do not
understand the function of it .
BTW , where is this university where the students know what a HG is and
how it works ?
Regards,
Henry
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:56:20 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] new subscription
hi list
my ghironda _at_ hotmail in infected by junk, more than 20
messages a day, so I decided to give up that damned
address....
If you want to contact me please use this new
lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it
Lyra_mendicorum is the same of ghironda, but is Latin
instead of Italian
ciao
Marcello
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:00:49 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
To Henry Boucher
The students at the university had never seen a HG, their only
knowledge of the word Hurdy Gurdy was from the song "The Hurdy Gurdy
man". They are sound engineering students and design engineering
students, The project was originally constructed to study the acoustics.
The changes that are seen and the changes you can't see, were the result
of this study. I then incorporated the results into a Computer and came
up with plans and constructed the first prototype , and after making
minor changes the final model was made, the results are not unlike the
original Hurdy Gurdies which also varied widely in models and
configurations, the only difference is this one is sound engineered and
computer designed. The bridge you can see in the picture is self
regulating and infinitely adjustable. maintaining string pressure, (no
scratchy sound) also no more problems with the high notes.
Bruce
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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:23:45 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Bruce Nally wrote:
> The bridge you can see in the picture is self regulating and infinitely
> adjustable. maintaining string pressure, (no scratchy sound) also no more
> problems with the high notes.
Wow! How does it work?
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 23:11:57 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi Bruce-
I'm curious, what is it that you and your researchers found and what did
you do differently in building your instrument based on these findings?
My engineering background continues to rear its ugly head from time to
time! ;^)
Is that a roller bearing?
One thing stood out to me in your photos, #10 especially; it's something
which eventually caused me trouble on my first hurdy-gurdy. Your melody
strings come up through the tailpiece; where they "leave" the tailpiece
and continue on toward the bridge, it seems that they bend down from the
edge of the tailpiece, so that under tension they apply some downward
force on the tailpiece, a bit of lever action which will try to lift the
tailpiece off the sound board at the end of the instrument, just above
the crank. The pivot point is at the "inside" corner of the tailpiece
where it meets the sound board, closest to where the trompette peg ends.
This is exactly what happened to mine, anyway. It took a few years, but
the tailpiece did eventually begin to tilt down toward the bridge, and
pull away from the sound board as mentioned above. I have since replaced
the tailpiece (I did manage to get to it before it pulled out
completely!) with a more appropriate shape, but more importantly, it's
angled less steeply so that the string tension no longer pulls the
tailpiece DOWN.
I also attached the new one in a more appropriate manner; my first one
was merely "screwed (not too well) and glued" to the sound board, whereas
the new one is doweled much deeper into the tail block of the instrument.
I hope such commentary isn't insulting to you or your efforts; it
certainly isn't intended that way! It's clear you've put a lot into this
instrument! I'm only bringing it to your attention in the hope that you
don't have the same trouble I did. It's a good opportunity to point out
to everyone here what turned out to be a problem for me.
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 03:27:46 -0000
From: "Madame Colson" <colsonvielle _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] New Member Intro
Hi Hurdy Gurdy Group!
My name is Nina Bohlen and have been playing Hurdy Gurdy for 5 years.
A number of years ago an antique picker came to the door and handed me a
paper bag. Inside was a Hurdy Gurdy that was in many pieces. He said "it's
yours for 35 dollars. So I bought it.
Through the help of many people, but mostly from Daniel Thonon it is finally
in playing condition (sort of ). It has it's good days and its bad days. It
was originally a Colson from Mirecourt France. It is now a mongrel from
Boston but I love it.
I am anxiously awaiting a new Hurdy Gurdy from Matt Szostak.
I live in the Boston area and professionally, I am an artist.
Nina
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:25:50 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] New Member Intro
Hi Nina
nice to see you here!
=====
Marcello Bono
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:41:44 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Bruce Nally wrote:
> The bridge you can see in the picture is self regulating and
infinitely
> adjustable. maintaining string pressure, (no scratchy sound)
also no more
> problems with the high notes.
Hi Bruce
you did a great job, and your point about bridge is
true.
But I did a bridge like that 15 years ago and I've
found that it was too "fat", acting as a "mute" for
melody strings (chanterelles).
This is a real problem with hurdy-gurdies: a big
bridge is a "mute" for chanterelles and the little
drone bridges are not.
Since I like to have more melody soud than drone (and
trompette) sound I prefer a "thin" chanterells bridge
(and "traditional" paper regulation, when it needs
:o).
What about the "balance" of your instrument?
ciao
Marcello
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:26:19 -0800
From: Dominic A White <ick _at_ awenet.com>
Subject: [HG] Welcome Nina!
Hi Nina,
My name is Dominic White and we seem to have a bit in common.
I have only been playing for almost 3 years. I have a wonderful Gurdy Alden
and Cali built for me, and I was informed about them by none other than
Matt Szostak.
I'm also an artist, and even though I currently live in Seattle, I am a
Boston area expatriate. I grew up in Scituate, Mass. I'm actually getting
ready to move back to New England before Fall 2001.
Welcome to the list! Good to have another Yankee aboard!
Dominic
*****SLUGS! online comic strip! http://slugs.awenet.com
"I live in a neighborhood which is well stocked with young ladies, and
consequently I am excruciatingly sensitive upon the subject of serenading."
--- Mark Twain.
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:34:13 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Welcome Nina!
Hi Dominic-
Not to get ahead of things, but please let us know when you move back here,
as there are occasional events and workshops, usually in the Boston area,
and we'd love to have another warm body to add to the fun!
~ Matt
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:34:18 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Thanks Matt
As you know your opinion is always welcome and appreciated. Regarding the
tailpiece and the string angle you are correct as usual. the problem was
also an engineering problem the bridge is self adjusting and to relieve
excessive force downward on the mechanism the bridge had to take the
brunt of the tension it is keyed into the end block as a tenon joint and
then pegged with bone dowels, the end block had to be made more massive
but is weight reduced with lightening holes.
The bearing is not roller or any metal bearing as that was discovered to
make to much mechanical noise, they are a ultra high density polymer with
self lubricating properties. Through research we discovered that the
Symphony design was the best because of it's simplicity. having no key
box fixed to the sound board or excessively heavy supports under the
sound board the mortise pattern test and the frequency varied strobe test
showed an even (sound) wave distribution on the sound board. it is our
idea that the addition of the key box and the supports were added to the
other designs lute, guitar etc, more as the simplification of
construction while not addressing what the effects of damping they
created on the sound board. This entry is getting long Matt so I will
stop here, but the M HG is more like the symphony design internally.
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:03:20 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
?Hi Marcello
The design of this bridge was an idea from an engineering
student. and it was a real headache, I have lost count of how many were
constructed before this one was arrived at, and you are right,
"experience" is always right, it does have a dampening effect with the
chanterelles "very slight " but this was achieved through trial and error.
The Mouche is still to dominant, but I balance like all the rest, testing
different string diameters and trying different pressures on the wheel.
Thanks
Bruce
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 22:34:56 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Reels and jigs,
Hi Nina ,
Nice to have you in the East Coast Chapter of the " drone conspiracy".
And here is a typical east coast problem : Most of the Québec/New England
folk music is from the Scott/Irish heritage , tunes in 4/4 with typical
beat pattern called reels . When a fiddler taps his feet on the floor ,
there are 3 strong beats and a quiet one ( it sounds a bit like a
galloping horse <g>)
So far I simply do two crank rotation per bar, with a " coup de deux " (
two buzzes) on the first rotation and none on the second but I think that
it is not adequate . A "coup de trois "+ one , in one rotation seems
impossible to do at that tempo . Does anybody has a better solution ?
Henry
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:08:23 -0500
From: Jim Riosa/Markham/IBM <jriosa _at_ ca.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Reels and jigs,
Hi Henri - long time since the Toronto HG fest!
Don;t know if this helps much, but I have had two fiddle instructors that
specialized to some level or another in Quebecois music (Anne Lederman and
JP Cormier). The basic reel for this from a bowing standpoint is as
follows.
Beat one: strong downbow
Beat two: nothing much here
Beat three: medium up bow - weaker in strength (except for some really
weird people like me and some Cajun fiddlers who have stronger up bowing
than down)
Beat four: strong but short down bow
I leave it to you to interpret this to coup de n for HG. Also, listen to
as much of Carignan as you can - he was beautiful on accenting the beats,
especially for dance.
Jim Riosa
IT Specialist, Logic Programming
phone (905)-316-4820, pager (416)-608-3707
jriosa _at_ ca.ibm.com
or page via the web
http://www.rogers.com/wireless/english/paging/sendpage.html PIN 4166083707
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:59:40 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Re: [HG] Reels and jigs,
I would think playing 1, 2, 3, in a normal Coup de 4 pattern will work . An
alternative would be 3,4,1 depending on where the strongest beat is required
as I think most players tend to favour beat 1 as the strongest.
Neil
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:19:10 -0700
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hello,
I have read the information on the Millenium HG with interest and was
wondering if there is any attention to publicly release/sell the
plans for it so that those of us with a bent for seeing working
drawings can better understand it that way. (I do apologize if this
already came up and I missed it.)
Thanks,
Arle
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:36:23 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
I'd love to know where you got the information on the internals of
Symphony design.
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:54:36 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi Neil
Yes the database on what the internal workings of a symphony is exactly
is based on scholarly speculation. We used the modern version of the
symphony from modern builders as our model. This would also apply to how
a organistrum worked or the early HG constructed on the bodies of lutes
and early guitars as sadly none of these also exist today. early prints
and paintings show the general shape and how they were played e.g.. the
miniature from cantigas de Santa Maria.
We could only assume that the sound board filled the shape and that a
keybox was not necessary as the box shape was the keybox so it would not
infringe on the soundboard .
Bruce
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:19:06 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
?Hi Arle
The plans for the Millennium HG are in my Computer but this was not
intended, or will it be made available for sale. Information that would be
informative to builders would be shared. In a previous email from
Marcello he tells us how he constructed an adjustable bridge but it proved
to mute the chanterelles. like Marcello's bridge the M HG is just an
experiment "information gained".
Bruce
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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:32:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Bruce Nally said:
> We could only assume that the sound board filled the shape and that a
> keybox was not necessary as the box shape was the keybox so it would
> not infringe on the soundboard .
This is an interesting theory. For what it's worth, we build our
symphonie with an internal keybox. The body is fairly wide (for which
there's certainly some historical precedent - the cantigas illustration
leaps to mind). The keys are quite long, even with an internal keybox.
If we brought them all the way through the body, I think they would be too
long to give good intonation, because they would be "floppy" in the
middle where the tangents are.
I've heard it proposed that the keybox has an inhibiting effect on
the sound of a HG, and there are all sorts of schemes like cantilevered
keyboxes which try to address this. At the same time, the famous Jenzat
and Parisian builders managed to get an exquisite sound from some of their
instruments, all with the keyboxes firmly attached.
This makes me wonder how important the upper half of the soundboard is.
It's not really linked directly to the lower half, because of the wheel.
Any vibrations reaching it need to come through the edges, around the
wheel hole, or by way of the soundposts, or from body resonance.
This is not to say that there's nothing new under the sun, or that we
should devote our energy to reproducing instruments that are 150 years
old. That's not my interest, and I hope that the HG world doesn't get
stuck in the "It's Got To Be Just Like Cremona" game that the violin world
seems to be in. I'm interested in scientific analysis, but the ultimate
judges are our ears and our hands, and that's where science leaves off
and art begins.
Is this a soapbox I'm standing on? I don't remember getting up here... ;-)
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:24:11 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
--- Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> ha
scritto: >
> I've heard it proposed that the keybox has an
> inhibiting effect on
> the sound of a HG, and there are all sorts of
> schemes like cantilevered
> keyboxes which try to address this. At the same
> time, the famous Jenzat
> and Parisian builders managed to get an exquisite
> sound from some of their
> instruments, all with the keyboxes firmly attached.
the same as baroque gurdies.
Someone says that a firmly attached keybox makes more
"rattle" noise from keys.
I think it's no true (if you make "good" keys and if
you use "consistent" back, sides and soundboard).
Usually the amount of noises are in correlation with
"loudness" of the instrument. As usual nothing is "for
free": if you want a "loud" instrument you usually get
more noise (and sometimes a "bad" sound too)
> This is not to say that there's nothing new under
> the sun, or that we
> should devote our energy to reproducing instruments
> that are 150 years
> old. That's not my interest, and I hope that the HG
> world doesn't get
> stuck in the "It's Got To Be Just Like Cremona" game
> that the violin world
> seems to be in.
there are several reason for "Cremona violins"; they
are a standard and the real "art" is the making of a
"better" standard instrument (that could be more
difficult than making a completely new "better"
violin)
Nevetheless "standard" is not "the only one"....a
"Cremona violin" is NOT good for Corelli or Vivaldi,
and a REAL Stradivari is NOT good for Malher.
I thing that it's exactly the same for gurdies.
ciao ciao
Marcello
=====
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:31:41 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] Jacky RAGEADE Vielle maker
Does anyone know anything about Jacky RAGEADE or the Vielles that he
makes.?
He had a stand at St. Chartier this year.
I don't know anyone that has one of his instruments.
There is a flat back Vielle for sale in the U.S. and a friend of mine has
asked me to find out more about his instruments.
Merci a lot
r.t.
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:13:23 +0100
From: Xavier AIME <xaime _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] Jacky RAGEADE Vielle maker
R.T.,
I have in my site (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle.html ) an article
about and by Jacky Rageade. I'm sorry but it's in French.
You can read it, by :
Region (on left) > Alpes méridionales (plan, on right) > Page-5 ,
Un luthier un état d'esprit (at the bottom of this page).
There are others articles about hg in this part of France.
Xavier AIME
_____________________________________________________________________________
Xavier AIME - Webmaster du site "Vielle à Roue"
(\ Site :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/xaime/vielle.html
{((O8<
(/ E-mail (site) : hg.vielle _at_ wanadoo.fr
#### Dernière mise à jour / Last update : novembre 2000 - november 2000
#############
_____________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:46:06 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] HG for sale on Ebay
Hello,
I noticed that there is a current auction on Ebay of
an excellent looking French Luteback Hurdy Gurdy.
It'worth going to the site just to view the photos.
You can take a look at it by going to ebay.com and
searching under hurdy gurdy or by clicking on the
following URL :
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=520593311&r=0&t=0&
showTutorial=0&ed=977023183&indexURL=0&rd=1
David Smith
Dearborn, Michigan
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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:12:17 +0100
From: Dominique Renaudin <d140557 _at_ club-internet.fr>
Reply-To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
Subject: [HG] Berry First Class
Hi happy bourrées grinders,
Here is a link to the official bilingual Berry site :
http://www.berry.tm.fr/
Enjoy
Dominique R
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:50:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Reels and jigs,
--- Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> wrote:
Hi Henry, From your description it sounds like a very
Scottish approach to 'lowland' reels.
> When a fiddler taps his feet on the floor ,
> there are 3 strong
> beats and a quiet
> one ( it sounds a bit like a galloping horse <g>)
The essential pattern for reels is quarter note
followed by two eighth notes (or 8th &
16th,depending). This happens twice per measure: ONE
anna, TWO anna, but leaving that last 'anna' out is
supposed to be more compelling for the dancers. The
"coup de deux" followed by a "coup de un" would be
good for one measure. A "coup de quartre inegales" (?)
followed by a "coup de un" (|1 . 3 4, 1...| ) would
fit. Or if you're lazy like me you could play ( |1...
1...|1.3. 1...| ) which is what the bass and tenor
drums are doing in the pipe bands.
> Does anybody has a better solution ?
Not sure, but I can hope...<g>
Roy T.
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:16:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG for sale on Ebay
The instrument for sale on eBay is a Camac, which were sold either
completed or as kits. It appears from the label as if this one was
sold as a finished instrument. Camacs have a fiberglass back, brass keys
and keyholes, and plastic tangents.
Hmm, how do I put this delicately? Ok:
It's possible to get some good sounds out of a Camac, but this instrument
should be considered a starting point, not a completed hurdy-gurdy,
and there are some inherent drawbacks to the instrument's design.
I see you've got the high bid at the moment, David. Good luck!
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 19:58:08 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
On the topic of "Moving with the times" I have had great success using MDF
with a thick maple band for wheels. The advantage apart from total stability
is that MDF is denser than solid maple and the heavier wheel seems to
insulate the front bearing from vibration. The net result is more power to
the bridge and less tendency for key rattle.
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:05:40 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG for sale on Ebay
Alden,
With this kind of delicacy you should be a diplomat.
On the other hand maybe a politician or a lawyer.
r.t.
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:22:37 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
?Hi Marcello
I think that the rattles, clicks the other sounds produced from the keybox
are part of the sound that is expected from a Hurdy Gurdy, also the sound
produced from the axle turning in the bearings, without these sounds the
instrument would not be what we expect and enjoy from one of the worlds
oldest MECHANICAL instruments, and this should never be tampered with.
When the study began for the Millennium Hurdy Gurdy the sound pickup
equipment used for testing had difficulty with these sounds and the
computer interpreted this as excessive background noise. one of the
engineers stated that it would be difficult with amateur sound equipment
to make a recording faithful to the instrument and that at live
performances the human ear eliminates this naturally. why he thought that
in the majority of CD recording we used for reference, the HG is in the
background and muted and also when people make recordings of a HG they
state it sounds so much better Live. The M HG originally had vibration
dampeners taken from aircraft instrument panels at the front and back of
the key box isolating the keybox effectively from the sound board, it does
not touch the sound box at the sides at all. This proved to much of a
change, "the HG sound was lost" so the final M HG has the back of the
sound box attached to the heal block and the front rests over the rear
wheel bearing support affixed to the sound board, but does not contact the
sound board at the sides. the rear bearing support only supports the
KeyBox NOT the sound board at either side. the effect is a great deal less
noise from the keybox and larger sound board surface area that is not
acoustically zoned. This results in an instrument that should record
better. Sorry about the long confusing Letter Marcello.
Bruce
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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 21:20:18 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Camac
As Woody Allen once said : " There is nothing worse than living a bad love
relationship except living whitout love at all " , so maybe it is better
to play a CAMAC than ........
Just give me the time to find my french/english dictionnary and I will
jump in the HG sound discussion <g>. In the meantime have a look at this
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dominique.engles/
Henry
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:04:11 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] history of playing with disassociation?
I asked Maxou this question and I thought that maybe some of you would
also be interested in this.
r.t.
.......................
From r.t.
What is the history of playing with a disassociation between left and right
hands?
When did it start?
Is it considered part of "Traditional" playing now?
..................................................
From Maxou
It started around 1980, for traditionnal tunes. Ask Pierre Imbert...
The traditionnal ways of playing HG have died with the last old HG players.
Except in a few places (Morvan, Brittany, for exemple...) people are mainly
playing more in the "spirit of" than with a real "traditionnal style".
Disassociation is a technique used now to produce real music on HG more
than
a boring repetition of simples melodies always played in the same way.
....................
From r.t.
I thought that it is either a "New" technique that virtuoso players created.
Or possibly it comes from some of the techniques used in playing Baroque
music. My reasoning for this was that maybe some of the payers of Baroque
music in the early 1800s' might have had to learn to play folk music to
earn money. And that some of these techniques were added to the style of
playing traditional folk music. It is too bad that there are methods for
playing Vielle for Baroque music from 200 years ago but not very much
information on the playing style for traditional music.
...................
From Maxou
The study of baroque HG started at the same time (80's), and people
re-discovered tehniques in old printed methods. Folk music was mainly
played
by ear, without the help of writing... that's why we don't have a 200 years
old method for traditionnal HG ! The baroque way of playing stopped a
longer
time than traditionnal way, but the methods helped its rebirth : we just
had
some old HG players (perhaps not the better ones, only the olders) in rural
places to show us the traditionnal techniques...
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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:10:46 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] Coup Gras?
More small questions from r.t.and answers from Maxou.
> Did the use of Coup Gras start with the Berry and Bourbonnais players?
Yes, I think. The best example is Gaston Guillemain
................
> If you want to play Auvergne music in a "traditional way" should you not
> play with coup Gras?
I've never heard with attention a "real traditionnal" HG player from
Auvergne. Listen to the CD made by Pierre about old masters : the answer is
there.
......................
> Is it now more accepted to play Auvergne music using Coup Gras?
Yes : have you ever heard "Chiens et soufflets" ?
......................................
> OK that was 3 small questions. Maybe that equals one big question.
Keep all these answers. In few years, we'll publish a book...
Maxou
>
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:13:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ gmx.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hello,
MDF is a great material for the wheel, but over the time it does not keep
its form a 100% so the wheel will get uneven-uncentered as time goes by,
I think this is caused by water from air humidity that soakes the MDF,
maybe one should try waterproof MDF.
I played a MDF wheel for years that had no extra band for the playing
surface and I never felt the need for such a band, the MDF+rosin surface
was probably the best playing surface I ever had.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:27:09 +0200
From: Juulia Salonen <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [HG] May I present...
Hello, grinders.
My folk-music band called Ihtiriekko, has new webpages, so go check
www.ihtiriekko.net . Everything is in Finnish, but we keep on working with
english summary. Soon you will be able to listen our music too.
Button "Oudot soittimemme" takes You to a small gallery of our
drone-instruments, among them a Swedish Groddalira with special
string-drum modification.
On "Linkit" -page You will of course find several known and valid links to
hg-world.
Yours
Mr. Esa Mäkinen
PS. If the link does not work on this message, just copy-paste or write it
to the browsers field.
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:39:42 -0000
From: Dave Praties <dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] MDF Wheels
Hello all,
Simon Wascher suggests that the instability of MDF wheels is
caused by moisture, and I'm sure he's right. I have just made my
first MDF wheel, and as a moisture barrier, have soaked it in
Danish oil. Many of my jigs are in MDF and have been treated this
way. Despite being left in fairly damp conditions, none of them have
distorted, unlike the left over bits which in the same storage area,
quickly began to do bannana impersonations.
I guess you could use any varnish as a moisture barrier, but I like
Danish oil, because it is very thin and highly penetrating and feels
like the right stuff for the job.
Cheers, Dave
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:25:27 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] May I present...
Hello Esa,
I had fun browsing through your website and trying to decypher Finnish.
I would like to learn more about the string drum attachment on the
Groddalira. It seems from the picture that it's a similar set up as the
sympathetic strings on a French vielle (if I am looking at the right part)
but how does it work? Do you strike the strings with a stick as on a string
drum? Is this something of your own invention?
I look forward to being able to listen to Ihtiriekko in the future, you
look like an interesting band!
Juan
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Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:43:23 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
All of this talk is, technically, great. On the thought of
good-old noise...and vibrato: Which type of hurdy-gurdy
gives forth more key noises and may be vibrato.
French style or Hungarian style?
And, is it OK to like the hitting noises of the keys?
(Electric hurdy-gurdys seem much more smooth in sound.)
Thanks for your thoughts.
Jim Winters
177 Stillwater ave. dome
ORONO, ME 04473
USA
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:59:02 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
It is not necessarily the style but the quality of the instrument and how it
is made.
Lose fitting keys will always rattle.
For vibrato, you will usually have more depth of the change of pitch on a
single melody string like the Hungarian Tekero because you can really push
the string back and forth a lot.
r.t.
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:09:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
RT said:
> It is not necessarily the style but the quality of the instrument and how it
> is made.
> Lose fitting keys will always rattle.
And it's really frustrating...
> For vibrato, you will usually have more depth of the change of pitch on a
> single melody string like the Hungarian Tekero because you can really push
> the string back and forth a lot.
Our French style instruments have quite a range of pitch available now
from key pressure. On the original key design we got from Michael there
wasn't much "bend" available, but we've added a few millimeters to the
keyshafts to increase the range. On the instrument I'll be making for
myself this spring I'm considering extending them even a little further.
For "folklorique" playing, such a feature is unnecessary. If you're
playing something farther off the beaten path, it can be essential.
;-)
Alden
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:11:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] More Y2K HG
I'd be interested in knowing what the parameters of the Millennium HG
experiment were, and how the results were quantified.
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:16:34 -0800
From: george swallow <swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] history of playing with disassociation?
So it didn't start with Erroll Garner?
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:40:53 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] De coloribus...
De coloribus et gustibus , non discutandem !
This story happened in the late '60 s , a sound recording technician
dies and ( for reasons unknowm in the story ) goes to hell. Instead of the
fire and torture instruments he sees a ( late '60s ) state of the art
recording studio . The devil explains to him that hell was to expensive to
run so he turned it into a large capitalist corporation exploiting all the
talents of the people that fills it every day . " For your first day in
hell , I even give you the choice , what do you want to record first, the
Scottish bagpipe , the German hunting horn or the French hurdy-gurdy ?"
Listening from some archived sources makes one wonder who's fault is it
? the player ? the luthier or the recording equipment ? Did someone
really paid this guy to play at his wedding ?
After comparing with modern CD , it is probable that the recording
equipment does explain part of it, but it is also possible that people's
tastes also have changed . Would you spend hours in a bar listening to the
same tunes played on the player piano?
So we do have the problem of the choice , folky or sophisticated , that
the earlier generation did not have .
Ex. " Il pastor Fido " ( Vivaldi ? ) has been recorded by many plahers ,
from Claude Flagel to Nigel Eaton , it is very interesting to observe all
the difference in each recording .
Personnally I do like the Folky style ( lucky for me since I can not
play anything else<g>) but I would get tired of it if I had no other
choice , in comparaison I can listen the " Sophisticated " style for hours
.
Henry
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Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 22:36:57 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi Simon,
I tried a "naked" MDF wheel but was never happy with the edge smoothness,
microscopic fibres continually sprang up and gave a rough tone.On humidity,
I think the varnish coat should protect it well enough .Dave's tip about
Danish oil is worth considering though I think it may compromise the rim
glue joint - time will tell -
and as it is my current playing instrument, I'll be the first to know .
The young French players seem to favour a piece of chamois leather under
their gurdies presumably to protect the varnish. Having managed to mark the
finish on my latest gurdy by carelessly wearing a shirt! I decided to give
it a try. I found it kept moving out of position so I cut holes in it to
attach it to the strap buttons - EUREKA- not only does this secure the
protective chamois but more importantly, I found it increases the friction
the belly/body interface to the extent that you become part of the machine.
Try it, you'll like it.
Neil Brook.
P.S. How come the Early Music Shop in Bradford is selling one of my gurdies
second hand for 128% more than I charge for a new one? Surely it is in the
interests of the instrument to price them realistically.
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:45:17 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
I love hitting keys/tapping keybox lids / strumming sympathetic strings etc.
To me it's all part of the unique HG experience. When I want pure sound, I
play the Synthesiser !
Neil
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:46:34 +0200
From: Juulia Salonen <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Vs: [HG] May I present...
Hello, Juan, here are some answers to Your questions:
> I would like to learn more about the string drum attachment on the
> Groddalira. It seems from the picture that it's a similar set up as the
> sympathetic strings on a French vielle (if I am looking at the right part)
> but how does it work? Do you strike the strings with a stick as on a string
> drum? Is this something of your own invention?
String drum drone is not my own invention. Anders Norudde (formerly Stake)
from the Swedish group Hedningarna has made at least two of them The
bigger one has four strings + trompette+ low drone! It does not have the
keys to play the melody. Slovakian or hungarian utõ-gardons have the same
idea: you hit strings with a stick, one string is played with thumb; it
rattles against the neck. Jazz- musicians seem to have a custom to play
with drumstick their doublebass etc...
My string drum has a bridge that is 12 cm high, so it runs far from my
fingers when I play the keys. String-drum-drone is a handy rhytm
instrument: I have low drone, trompette and string drum all tuned in D or
E, low drone and string drum have same pitch, trompette is one octave
higher. The string-drum gives a really dark, warm sound.
How do I play? With right hand I operate the wheel; of course, and the
left hand is hitting the string drum with a stick (a recycled
flute-cleaner). If I only had 3rd hand I could play the melody too.
What do I play? I began with simple backbeat for scottishes etc. (beat 1
on string drum and backbeat with trompette: boom-crack...). Then I moved
further to polskas and even to cool hip-hop beats...
Have you ever noticed that there are double-sided drums played almost
everywhere in the world? In Turkey and in Eastern Europe, for instance,
drummer can have a plain stick in his other hand and a big wool-padded
stick in other hand. The system with hg + string drum is the same.
Trompette is the stick and string drum the heavy wool-hammer.
Yes, the string really is sympathetic, it vibrates with the low drone.
The string is from a 3/4-size bassviol, ca. 3 mm thick and
wolframsteel-wounded, so its quite heavy. It is thus causing quite a
pressure to the soundboard, so the bridge stands partly on the side and on
the supporting strut that is supporting the wheel. It would be a disaster
to place it on soundboard only...
Esa
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:08:00 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
To Jim Winters:
OF COURSE it's "ok to like the hitting noises of the keys..." In fact,
there are some players who use this noise as part of their music. Anyone
from the OTW festival remember Cliff's tune, "Bottleneck?" R.T., didn't he
add percussive sounds to the melody by releasing keys quickly, with a
"snap-like" motion, so that the string tension against the tangents forced
the key to pop back to its rest position with a nice woody knocking
noise? If you like it, then it's good, buddy! Don't forget that! Also,
you're right that "electric hurdy-gurdys seem much more smooth in
sound." The keys of these instruments still make the same kinds of noises
(though perhaps not as much "rattle" from instrument vibration), but most
of the "sound" from these instruments is taken from the piezo-electric
transducers under the bridges; the key noise doesn't really make it
through. I have done the smallest bit of experimenting with Griffith
Jones' "Accusound Strip," which is a stick-on piezo attachment. I've seen
quite a few acoustic hurdy-gurdies sporting these things in England. The
signal from this device has a sound very much like the "electric
instruments." Most of the "acoustic" noises I'm used to (and fond of) from
my hurdy-gurdy don't come through.
It is my humble opinion that a loose fit does not necessarily rattling keys
make. I've played (and made!) instruments with very tight fitting keys
which rattled, especially when certain notes were played - structural
resonating frequencies? Bathroom stalls have them, why not
hurdy-gurdies? There are also instruments which very loose keys which
don't rattle at all...
{Alden said}
>Our French style instruments have quite a range of pitch available now
>from key pressure. On the original key design we got from Michael there
>wasn't much "bend" available, but we've added a few millimeters to the
>keyshafts to increase the range. On the instrument I'll be making for
>myself this spring I'm considering extending them even a little further.
>
>For "folklorique" playing, such a feature is unnecessary. If you're
>playing something farther off the beaten path, it can be essential.
>;-)
>
>Alden
Alden, what do you mean when you say "...adding a few millimeters to the
keyshafts..."? Are you extending the gap between the "inside" edges of the
keypads and the keybox, so that you can press the key further before the
keypad will touch the keybox, limiting your movement?
Does anyone have trouble with their left-hand fingers touching the drones
beneath the keyboard?
~ Matt
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:36:18 +0100 (MET)
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ gmx.at>
Subject: [HG] Re: MDF (was: millennium Hurdy Gurdy)
Hi Neil,
> I tried a "naked" MDF wheel but was never happy with the edge
smoothness,
> microscopic fibres continually sprang up and gave a rough tone.(...)
The MDF wheel I used has a thin layer of massiv wood - a thick inlay -
glued on at the sides , so it looks from the side like a normal wooden wheel. I
think this maybe protects the edges from loosing fibres. Also the edges are
quite round.
My actual wheel is made of a hard plastic foam.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:01:38 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
From: "Matthew Szostak" <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
>
> OF COURSE it's "ok to like the hitting noises of the keys..." In fact,
> there are some players who use this noise as part of their music. Anyone
> from the OTW festival remember Cliff's tune, "Bottleneck?" R.T., didn't
he
> add percussive sounds to the melody by releasing keys quickly, with a
> "snap-like" motion, so that the string tension against the tangents forced
> the key to pop back to its rest position with a nice woody knocking
> noise?
Yes, Cliff Stapelton does a lot of banging around on the instrument.
OK, he taps on the top of the key box. Somtimes he taps on the keys in a way
that does not make a change in the note, you only hear a percusave tap or
click sound. And the technique that he taught me for the tune "Bottelneck"
is to press in the key firmly and qucikly and then slide your finger
verticaly up the front surface of the key so that it release like an arrow
from a bow string. It makes it's own unusual sound.
If and when I ever finish my Midi Hurdy Gurdy I will have to sample that
sound so that I can do a proper Cliff imitation.
>
> Does anyone have trouble with their left-hand fingers touching the drones
> beneath the keyboard?
>
> ~ Matt
Matt,
I think you would need to show them a picture of the unique way that you
hold your left had for them to fully appriciate your question. I can say
that because we are good friends. I hope.......
Matt is always an inovator !
r.t.
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:07:47 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: [HG] De coloribus...
I like rustic sounds, too. And my CD of Nigel, the one on
Saydisc, does say Vivaldi for the sonata:
Il Pastor Fido.
I wish I had a good joke to follow yours; I guess I don't.
There's one about someone's mother who ate a pet parrot by
accedent... Oh well.
I can never remember jokes. The instrument ones do seem just
silly.
jim. vegitarian.
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:26:15 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: Vs: [HG] May I present...
idle thoughts:
>
>String drum drone is not my own invention. Anders Norudde
(formerly
>Stake) from the Swedish group Hedningarna has made at least
two of ...
Anders has a lovely CD that I have. It is brown, from NSD
here, or NorthSide music in Minneapolis. There is hurdy
gurdy on it and he holds it in the small photo on the back.
It is instrumental. Mostly on moraharpa (3 strings) or the
Swedish bag pipe. It is quite rustic and very, very nice in
that way. No rhythm section. No singing. Bare sounding and
may be cold in mood. On a cold night, in the dark, played
softly, it is beautiful I think at least. Also some
bouzouki, quarter-toned bag pipe and low-tuned fiddle. Four
pages liner notes in English.
26 tracs and his hurdy-gurdy on track 16.
>Jazz- musicians seem to have a custom to play with drumstick their
>doublebass etc...
//////////////
I don't know.
They slap the string with the thumb on electric, or pull it
so it bounces back, and get rough making it rattle here and
there.
Not so many are so good to do it.
thoughts.
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:00:31 -0200
From: Kaiser <kmkaiser _at_ usp.br>
Subject: [HG] plans
Hi ,everybody.
I'm almost finishing the CAD "translation" of my set of drawings of a
guitar-shaped Louvet HG. I would like to share it with you, and maybe share
the problems too, with those who dare to make the instrument from such a
source.
The first problem is that the original copy may have some kind of
distortion. The original drawings where made by hand, by some P. Jacquier,
from "musée instrumental du C.N.S.M.-Paris, and where sold as helliographic
(?) prints years ago.
Thanks to people from the list, I found in sites the missing chanterelle
bridge, and maybe some photographs.
I am also trying to finish my vielle too, and maybe take it with me to
Hungary, where I hope to see some of you in festivals next year.
R.T. : Thanks for all your help. I decided not disturb your friends before
showing them my work. That is why I'm working hard in this vielle. I hope to
see you in Budapest and show it to you.
Namaste
Marcos Kaiser
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:53:23 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
I would love to get a copy of the CAD data. What file format can you supply?
Bruce, I would love to have a copy of the Millennium HG if you ever decide
to let others see it.
Although I have been in the Computer Graphics and Special Effects business
for over 20 years, I guess I have been to busy or mostly too lazy to create
a model of a Hurdy Gurdy. It takes so much work and effort to get it right.
We have lots of inside jokes that we do in the Effects business. We sneak
things into movies that most people don't see. It would be nice to hide a
Hurdy Gurdy in the next Star Wars movie. That could get a lot of people
fired I guess.
How about Lethal Weapon 10?
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:25:23 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
At 04:01 PM 12/10/00 -0800, you wrote:
> > Does anyone have trouble with their left-hand fingers touching the drones
> > beneath the keyboard?
> >
> > ~ Matt
>
>Matt,
>I think you would need to show them a picture of the unique way that you
>hold your left had for them to fully appriciate your question. I can say
>that because we are good friends. I hope.......
>Matt is always an inovator !
>
>r.t.
Wait a minute... "innovator"?!? That certainly sounds like a dubious
compliment to me!!! You're gonna OWE me for that one, buddy - I want
Krispy Kreem doughnuts! Don't ask me how I know...
Anyone who has looked through Dean Cully's images from this year's festival
can see some shots of me with my strange left wrist posture. Before
september, no-one ever told me that it was strange, and I never noticed
that I was doing it differently than anyone else. In looking at the photos
myself, it's very obvious, and it doesn't look very comfortable, though it
feels natural to me, since it's the way I've always done it. It was Pierre
who got on my case about it, and also about how I have the tendency to bend
my fingers and play the keys more with the tips, like I'm fretting a guitar
string, rather than with the pads where my fingerprints lie. I'm trying to
retrain my arm and hand, but it's difficult, and when I'm playing a
challenging passage, or when I'm playing two notes in succession that have
a large spread between them, I find my arm and hand right back where they
started. A bit at a time, I guess. For an example of my way or the hiway,
check out Dean's photo, "ms&rt 01.jpg". I actually think that the truth of
my playing position lies somewhere in the middle - I seem to shift around
quite a bit depending on what I'm playing.
Anyway, I still find playing closer to my fingertips more comfortable, and
it's only now that I'm trying to play "correctly" that I occasionally stop
the drone with a keyboard finger. I'm just wondering if it's an issue for
anyone else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:48:18 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Re:string drums and sympathetics
Hello Esa,
Thanks for the explanations and descriptions, I am really keen to hear what
this instrument sounds like now. I have probably heard it in some of the
Hedeningarna albums, not knowing what I was listening to.
I did not know there was such a thing as a hurdy gurdy with no key-box
that is purely a rythym and drone instrument, but I love the idea.
On a slightly related topic, I have seen an old French hurdy gurdy which
had only one melody string. The place of the second string was taken up by
maybe four sympathetic strings that ran from the tailpiece, over the main
bridge and (without touching the wheel) to metal tuning pins fixed right
behind the nut on that little platform inside the key-box the nuts sit on.
There was of course only one row of tangents, to play the single melody
string.
I imagine that because these strings were using the main bridge, they must
have been quite audible. Like early reverb.
Juan
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:06:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ gmx.at>
Subject: Re: Vs: [HG] May I present...
Hello,
PLEASE what is the TITLE of this CD (have you ever tried to buy a CD by
color? :o) )
> Anders has a lovely CD that I have. It is brown, from NSD
> here, or NorthSide music in Minneapolis. There is hurdy
> gurdy on it and he holds it in the small photo on the back.
> It is instrumental. Mostly on moraharpa (3 strings) or the
> Swedish bag pipe. It is quite rustic and very, very nice in
> that way. No rhythm section. No singing. Bare sounding and
> may be cold in mood. On a cold night, in the dark, played
> softly, it is beautiful I think at least. Also some
> bouzouki, quarter-toned bag pipe and low-tuned fiddle. Four
> pages liner notes in English.
> 26 tracs and his hurdy-gurdy on track 16.
> (...)
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:44:42 +0100 (MET)
From: Simon Wascher <simon.wascher _at_ gmx.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re:.... and sympathetics
Hello,
Juan, you wrote:
> (...)
> On a slightly related topic, I have seen an old French hurdy gurdy which
> had only one melody string. The place of the second string was taken up
> by maybe four sympathetic strings that ran from the tailpiece, over the
> main bridge and (without touching the wheel) to metal tuning pins fixed
> right behind the nut on that little platform inside the key-box the nuts
> sit on. There was of course only one row of tangents, to play the single
> melody string.
This gets my attention because I know qite similar instruments - no
drones, resonance strings inside the keybox - as typical traditional hurdy-gurdy
in Bohemia, today nobody plays them but you find them in museums and on
photos ... also for example - including a (cannot be correct) description of its
function - in the book of Marianne Broecker. What led my interest to these
bohemian hurdy-gurdies is that they have sitting on the keys a different
number of tangents(frets) for each of the two melodie strings which allowes to
play two different notes at once.
So can you tell where you saw this instrument, from which century it is,
which form the body had, did the bridge look like usual, drones?, trompette?
... so all you remember :-).
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:48:25 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] history of playing with disassociation?
--- "R. T. Taylor" <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
> I thought that it is either a "New" technique that
> virtuoso players created.
> Or possibly it comes from some of the techniques
> used in playing Baroque
> music. My reasoning for this was that maybe some of
> the payers of Baroque
> music in the early 1800s' might have had to learn
> to play folk music to
> earn money. And that some of these techniques were
> added to the style of
> playing traditional folk music. It is too bad that
> there are methods for
> playing Vielle for Baroque music from 200 years ago
> but not very much
> information on the playing style for traditional
> music.
> ...................
>
> From Maxou
>
> The study of baroque HG started at the same time
> (80's), and people
> re-discovered tehniques in old printed methods.
> Folk music was mainly
> played
> by ear, without the help of writing... that's why
> we don't have a 200 years
> old method for traditionnal HG ! The baroque way of
> playing stopped a
> longer
> time than traditionnal way, but the methods helped
> its rebirth : we just
> had
> some old HG players (perhaps not the better ones,
> only the olders) in rural
> places to show us the traditionnal techniques...
Have you ever read Dupuit's baroque method?
There is the best description of what Clastrier calls
"coup de 4 (and 3...) relache" .....
I 'm sure that Clastrier reinvented them (and went
beyond) for himself...newertheless.....
ciao
Marcello
=====
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:36:17 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Hi Bruce
your email is not confusing, I've found it extremely
interesting, as usual
--- Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com> ha scritto: >
> I think that the rattles, clicks the other sounds
> produced from the keybox
> are part of the sound
> that is expected from a Hurdy Gurdy
.......
> without these sounds the instrument would
> not be what we expect
> and enjoy from one
> of the worlds oldest MECHANICAL instruments
Without hard work, even cycling would not be the same
way of transportation I like...nevertheless I prefer a
light, well rolling bicycle :o)
> one of the engineers stated that it would be
> difficult with amateur
> sound equipment to
> make a recording faithful to the instrument and that
> at live performances
> the human ear
> eliminates this naturally. why he thought that in
> the majority of CD
> recording we used for
> reference, the HG is in the background and muted and
> also when people make
> recordings of a
> HG they state it sounds so much better Live.
I've made several recordings of my concerts, from 1985
onward, using "amateur
sound equipment" (Sony 30 bucks stereo mike, Sony
portatile cassette and dat recorders) and they sound
great and faithful (I'm doing a master for a
"possible" CD with them).
Live music is always better (is there any "dead"
music? :o)
The problem is not the "noise" itself, but what kind
of, and the way you use it: I use the "click" of the
keys as means of expression (this means: I NEED to
decide WHEN I like the "click", and when I don't like
it I have to be able to play without it).
I never like rattles and axle's bearings
noises......never...
You did an interesting job!
ciao
Marcello
=====
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:04:38 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] De coloribus...
--- Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
> Listening from some archived sources makes one
> wonder who's fault is
> it ?
> the player ? the luthier or the recording equipment
> ?
Sometimes all of them...(not to mention recording
engineers...)
> After comparing with modern CD , it is probable
> that the recording
> equipment
> does explain part of it, but it is also possible
> that people's tastes
> also have changed .
This is true (unfortunately)....I went to a baroque
concert with a friend of mine (HiFi fan) and his
comment was - my Denon plays "better" -
(when a HiFi fan says "play" he means the" soud", not
the "playing"...).
Anyway...I got several '50 Columbia discs (the big
black ones...do you remember?) and they "play" better,
I think I know why....
> Ex. " Il pastor Fido " ( Vivaldi ? )
Someone say "by Chedeville"...
Vivaldi never wrote "il pastor fido" but neither
Chedeville "did"....
> has been
> recorded by many plahers ,
> from
> Claude Flagel to Nigel Eaton , it is very
> interesting to observe all the
> difference
> in each recording .
in term of?
ciao
Marcello
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:13:03 -0000
From: arthur nichols <arthur _at_ anichols.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hi Marcos
When your drawings are available I would be interested in obtaining a copy.
As a retired engineer, I have taken to building instruments eg Hammer
Dulcimer, Mountain D,
Celtic Harp and other string instruments.
My present project is a box shaped HD with 8 keys, which I am upgrading to
two melody strings from the original
plan which shows one .I am also including drone strings which are not on the
plans.
I need to find a player who will tune and play it, so that I can get some
idea as to how effective my labours have been.
I am a non player with a great interest in making things.
Arthur Nichols
Wolverhampton UK
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:34:45 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
r.t. wrote:
>
>We have lots of inside jokes that we do in the Effects business. We sneak
>things into movies that most people don't see. It would be nice to hide a
>Hurdy Gurdy in the next Star Wars movie. That could get a lot of people
>fired I guess.
>
>How about Lethal Weapon 10?
Last week I spotted a hurdy gurdy in the film 'Mansfield park'.( Matthew,
the way you hold your left hand has nothing on the guy in this film who
seems to think the hurdy gurdy is a guitar).
Apart from Captains Courageous and The Duelists are there other good bits
of gurdy spotting in the film world?
Juan
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:24:23 -0500
From: Ken and Judy Sarkozy <sarkozykal _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hello Marcos,
I would love to get a copy of your completed plans of the Louvet HG. Please
let me know when they are finished and how I may obtain them. Thank you very
much,
Ken Sarkozy
Kalamazoo, MI
USA
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:32:44 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Louvet,
Hi,
I am also very interested in that Louvet plan ! There is serious
business developping here <g>. What is the string lenght of the
chanterelle on that plan ?
Henry
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:51:35 +0200
From: Juulia Salonen <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Vs: Vs: [HG] May I present...
The cd is called Kan Själv!, record company is Drone, catalog number of
this cd is DROCD 020. Check www.drone.se for details.
Hg is played only for rhytm, with trompette on 2 tracks. Mainly this is a
solo for swedish bagpipe, but includes also ancient type of nyckelharpa,
"moraharpa" and fiddle for solos, some flutes too.
Esa Mäkinen
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:10:30 +0100
From: Xavier AIME <xaime _at_ wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] Louvet,
Hi,
I'm very interested too. How we obtain them ? And are they on paper or in
file ?
Thank you very much,
Xavier
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:24:06 -0800
From: "Meador, John" <john.meador _at_ unistudios.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] plans
Hello Marcos:
Please add my name to the list of people who want these plans.
Please let me know when they may be available and how to obtain them.
What format ( DXF or other ) will these plans be available in.
I would like to make some 3D renderings of these plans in
either MAYA or 3D Studio MAX.
Thanks you in advance.
John Meador
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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:45:17 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
I love hitting keys/tapping keybox lids / strumming sympathetic strings etc.
To me it's all part of the unique HG experience. When I want pure sound, I
play the Synthesiser !
Neil
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:36:16 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: [HG] hg spotting
At 01:34 AM 12/11/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Last week I spotted a hurdy gurdy in the film 'Mansfield park'.
yes -- the soundtrack has Nigel for the first second or so, but the picture
sure wasn't! I held my breath in case the thing fell off that poor young
man. (I loved the glass harmonica bits though.)
>Apart from Captains Courageous and The Duelists are there other good bits
>of gurdy spotting in the film world?
Daniel Thonon is on screen for a good 30 seconds, maybe more, in the
Canadian film The Black Robe directed by Denis Arcand. It's about Jesuits
arriving in North America in the 1600s, and Daniel appears as a French
musician playing on the street thing, shot in old Montreal or Quebec City.
(Henry? Am I right about this?)
and of course there's the list on the hg site.
cath
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:43:03 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy in Masfield Park
I have not sceen the movie yet but Penny Cloud says that it is Nigel Eaton
playing. Maybe he just did the sound track or maybe he is scene in the
movie.
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:50:21 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: [HG] finger position, vibrato, string tension
At 10:25 PM 12/10/00 -0500, matt wrote:
>> > Does anyone have trouble with their left-hand fingers touching the drones
>> > beneath the keyboard? ... my strange left wrist posture.
I lay my hand on the keybox so that the pads barely touch the bottom row,
and then a curl of the fingers hit the top keys so they're almost always
played with tips, but then I have three drone strings under my keys so I'm
very aware of the danger of hitting the bass notes. also I have small hands.
there's lots of good reasons to change the part of the finger that touches
the key -- you have to, if you're going to do the 2-1-2-1-3-2-1 method of
playing a chromatic scale, and you'll have to turn your hand to do it
comfortably too. fingertips change the sound, change your control of
vibrato (it's also fun to try vibrato with strings at a lower tension.)
So Matt, I say go for it -- whatever works that isn't painful, anything and
everything.
btw, valentin studied the baroque manuals
cath
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:41:02 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy in Masfield Park
R.T. wrote:
>I have not sceen the movie yet but Penny Cloud says that it is Nigel Eaton
>playing. Maybe he just did the sound track or maybe he is scene in the
>movie.
>
This is no Nigel Eaton, the actor (extra) involved is playing the keys
with his left hand coming from underneath the instrument, as if it were a
guitar neck. The soundtrack backing the scene with the hurdy gurdy can
only be descirbed as 'orchestral' if Nigel was in ther somewhere, I missed
it. As Cath mentioned,the film redeems itself, musically, with a scene of
two women playing a glass harmonica. The soundtrack here seems to be a
glass harmonica and as this instrument works by friction applied to the rim
of a rotating circular object, which is itself mounted on an axle, I
thought it well worthy of a mention in the hurdy gurdy pages.
Juan
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:20:28 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ home.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fingers hitting drones
Matthew Szostak wrote:
> Does anyone have trouble with their left-hand fingers touching the drones
> beneath the keyboard?
I get that occasionally with my Hubbert Volksgurdy and really have to watch
out for it with my Minstrel by Olympic Musical Instruments. I keep meaning
to see if I can develop it into something cool some day...and am keeping an
eye on the thread about striking HG strings.
Anna
=====
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
www.telynor.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:13:55 -0200
From: Kaiser <kmkaiser _at_ usp.br>
Subject: Re: [HG] Louvet,
>Please add my name to the list of people who want >these plans.
>Please let me know when they may be available and >how to obtain them.
>What format ( DXF or other ) will these plans be >available in.
>John Meador
Hi,
I think they will be finished in two weeks. The format can be CAD 12, 14,
or DXF, as your wish. But please do not expect so much from these plans.
I've preserved the differences that I found between the views.
>
> I'm very interested too. How we obtain them ? And are they on paper or in
> file ?
>
> Xavier
In file. Maybe I can make a copy on Cronaflex too.
What is the string lenght of the
> > chanterelle on that plan ?
> >
> > Henry
> >
There are some doubts, but I think about 30.4 cm.
Marcos
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:32:57 -0600
From: Rob McConnell <robrmcc _at_ mts.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Ditto me for the plans or CAD data. SDRC, Pro/E, AutoCAD all work fine for me.
Rob McC
From bln _at_ idirect.com Fri Jan 5 23:00:09 2001
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:49:58 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Reply-To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
To: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hi
I decided that I will provide free of charge as a download , the CAD
drawings of the M HG sometime in the new year when I can find some time. I
am working on a flat back teardrop shaped HG at the present time
incorporating one or two of the ideas learned from the M HG project.
Bruce
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:10:58 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] millennium Hurdy Gurdy
Thanks Marcello.
Sometimes I do get carried away, emotional topic for me and difficult
technically to put into words. HG lovers may be intimidated when you
experiment with THE design. but hey I love it to. The Hurdy Gurdy continues
to evolve. Most of the designs we build and sell today are purely from study
and with some creativity added.
Bruce
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:15:32 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re:.... and sympathetics
Simon schrieb:
>So can you tell where you saw this instrument, from which century it is,
>which form the body had, did the bridge look like usual, drones?, trompette?
>... so all you remember :-).
Simon,
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I have been trying to get all this
information for you but it may take a bit longer.
The instrument in question is part of Curtis Berak's collection in Los
Angeles. I tried several times to phone Curtis, but he does not seem to be
around just now.
However, I seem to remember it to be a guitar bodied instrument and
otherwise more or less typical as far as string configuration. One of these
hurdy gurdies, and I cannot for sure say if it was this one, also had a
system of jamming the first few black keys in the 'on' position, thereby
effectively turning them into capos.
I will fill you in with the rest of the details, and confirm if I got the
above data right once Curtis and I manage to establish communication.
Juan
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:42:23 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Key noise and Vibrato
My early gurdies suffered from key rattle on occasion and I found that a
wider wheel edge improved the problem. Later I realised it is not the
increased width but the increased mass of the wheel which is important. I
restored a 19thC. guitar bodied HG which had anything up to 2mm gaps around
the keyslots and had no trace of rattle but had a heavy wheel.QED.
Neil
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:41:03 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] plans
Hi Arthur,
If you ever get up around J 32 on the M6, I live2 miles off it and would be
happy to see you and your instrument
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:27:08 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fingers hitting drones
There is no reason why, as long as the drones don't contact anything on
their excursion, they can't be moved away from fingers by relocating the
notch on the "ear". The angle of contact with the wheel does not seem to be
as critical as the chanterelles.
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:19:48 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] hg spotting
I "played" on a BBC production of "Martin Chuzzlewit" a few years ago. It
was interesting as they wanted vision only for the shot so the dialogue
could be heard, and after standing around for six hours in the artistic
smoky atmosphere - it was raining a bit too as I recall - I was required to
play the tune. The result was so far down in the mix that they need not have
bothered but that's showbiz!!
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:20:43 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re:.... and sympathetics
Hello Simon
Curtis phoned back today and here is some more information on the
sympathetic strings:
The instrument in question is a guitar-shaped Lambert. It has a
pre-printed label inside with the date 175.... (the last digit was never
written in or has totally faded). This instrument has two rows of six
pinholes in the tailpiece and a piece of ivory set in the main bridge to
raise the strings off the wheel. The nut is missing.
There are holes in the keys for a second set of tangents so this may have
been a later modification. There are no sympathetic strings in the usual
place.
Curtis also mentioned an instrument by Coron of Versailles, also of the
Baroque period and also guitar-shaped but fatter than the Lambert. This one
has six simpathetics running through the keybox as well as sympathetics
over the soundbox.
The instrument with the capo arrangement turned out to be an 18th century
Breton alto hurdy gurdy.
Juan
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:02:20 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] hg spotting
At 02:19 PM 12/12/00 -0000, Neil wrote:
>I "played" on a BBC production of "Martin Chuzzlewit" a few years ago. It
>was interesting as they wanted vision only for the shot so the dialogue...
funny. that's exactly what someone in the medieval baebes told me that's
how she uses her hurdy gurdy (it's got a hole in the back). can anybody
remind me why I am spending so much time practising?
cath
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:50:36 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] about hg spotting
Several years ago I played on a RAI production , a tv
movie called "la ghironda dagli occhi azzurri" (the
hurdy-gurdy with pale blu eyes...).
They used one of my gurdies and I had to teach how to
"touch" it to a young german girl (pale blu eyed...).
The story was: a youg german girl had her hurdy-gurdy
stolen during her trip by train, from Frankfurt to
Bologna (guess why...she asked to a young tattoed boy
"may you take a look to my gurdy while I go to the
restroom?"...).
The young tattoed boy was a spy, and he wanted to put
a microchip inside the gurdy, in order to pass the
customs without problem (I usually had lot of problems
with HGs, but I never had problems with microchips,
films, dat, cd, floppy etc...anyway...).
The girl went to police at Bologna station and a
policeman ask her "was it a precious instrument?" and
she replied "of course not (?!?) but I love it because
it was made by my grandpa' that is dead" (me....:o).
At the end the policeman was able to find the gurdy
and the girl wanted to make him a present: a special
concert inside the police station...
During the performance all the policemen
snored....(and I made one of my best solo
performances...).
Now the suggestions
1) If you need to go to the rest room, take the gurdy
with you.
2) Use an organistrum if you need to put a lot of
microchips inside your instrument
3) Never (I said NEVER) perform in a police station
4) Are you sure to be alive?....maybe you're dead but
you don't know about it yet
5) Ask for LOT of money If you can't follow the points
1,2,3 and 4 (I had something like 1000 USD for
that...)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:36:15 -1000
From: Don V. Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] about hg spotting
Marcello:
I like that story.
I was once arressted in Los Angeles for playing my violin on the street.
They took me down to the police station, made me play for everyone there,
then let me go, laughing. I don't think I'd EVER try it with a hurdy
gurdy...
Don
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:14:54 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] about hg spotting
Don wrote:
>I was once arressted in Los Angeles for playing my violin on the street.
>They took me down to the police station, made me play for everyone there,
>then let me go, laughing. I don't think I'd EVER try it with a hurdy
>gurdy...
I heard there is actually a law in Los Angeles specifically prohibiting
the playing of hurdy gurdies (it does not specify which kind) . Bryan
Tolley was arrested in LA and this law was cited as part of the city
ordinance. I do not know if Bryan was made to serenade the LAPD and wonder
whether such action would have eased or worsened his predicament.
Juan
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:55:16 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] about hg spotting
--- "Don V. Lax" <donvlax _at_ maui.net> ha scritto: >
Marcello:
> I like that story.
> I was once arressted in Los Angeles for playing my
> violin on the street.
> They took me down to the police station, made me
> play for everyone there,
> then let me go, laughing.
How can I say....
Speaking about performances, I think that playing for
a laughing audience is far better than playing for a
snoring one....:o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
______________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:12:34 -1000
From: Don V. Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] about hg spotting
I was actually arrested, beaten and thrown in jail for playing my violin on
the street in Rome, Italy in 1974, (it took nine policemen to keep the
violins of the streets) but I haven't ever tried to play my hurdy gurdy on
the street. It's hard to keep gypsies down, however... maybe we should start
a movement- hurdy gurdies on every street corner!
Don
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:37:58 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: [HG] Re: il pastor fido
previously:
>> Ex. " Il pastor Fido " ( Vivaldi ? )
>
>Someone say "by Chedeville"...
>Vivaldi never wrote "il pastor fido" but neither
>Chedeville "did"....
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
to ask now I suppose: did Vivaldi write: il pastor fido?
see above letter.
The CDs say so. I only wondered.
It's not too big to me at least to know.
Or someone else wrote this sonata?
from,
Jim Winters
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:22:37 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: [HG] hg spotting
>Daniel Thonon is on screen for a good 30 seconds, maybe more, in
>the
>Canadian film The Black Robe directed by Denis Arcand. It's about
>Jesuits
>arriving in North America in the 1600s, and Daniel appears as a
>French...
........................
I wish to warn that I hated the portrail in "The Black Robe"
of the natives; it was very, very violent. I felt offended.
I don't like the steriotype --the reasonable white man and
the savage indian... The Hg list does say that it contains
violence.
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:35:31 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: Vs: [HG] May I present...
>PLEASE what is the TITLE of this CD (have you ever tried to buy a
>CD by
>color? :o) )
..........
>> Anders has a lovely CD that I have. It is brown, from NSD
>> here, or NorthSide music in Minneapolis. There is hurdy
....................
"Hello, Hi. Yes I'll have the brown one."
I am sorry. Part of my omission is that there is no title on
the cover. Now this is the CD with a tiny bit of Swedish
hurdy-gurdy, not a major amount. I had described this here.
Here in America, we have NorthSide music, a very common
lable at Borders, Barnes&Noble, and so on here.
CD is NorthSides's: Andres Norudde "Himself"
NSD #6046, it says that this is his first solo recording.
NorthSides's web page must be: www.noside.com
"Kan Sjalv" means "Himself", they say here.
Recorded in fall, 1999, it says.
It's Brown, sort of a reddish brown. Like an autumn brown. A
little bit rust brown.
sorry.
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:34:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] More HG spotting
There's a list of films and other visual-media appearances of the HG on
the HG site, http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/films.html. I can see from the
discussion that there are some that I need to add.
I haven't seen all of "The Black Robe", just the HG parts which Cali
pointed out to me. She did mention that it was not a very nice movie, so
I'll add a note about the violence in the next revision.
I'm still looking for a copy of "The Visitors", but haven't been able to
find it yet.
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:49:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] More films
A few years ago we worked on a Cailhe-Decant luteback HG for Richard
Donner of Donner/Schuller-Donner. He wanted it restrung and tuned up,
but apparently didn't care if it really played well or not - but he also
seemed to think that it would stay in tune after we had worked on it
(this little myth took quite a bit of explaining to dispel...) He was
kind of evasive about what he was planning to do with it, even when I
asked him point-blank.
So now of course I'm wondering what he used it for. His recent films were
Assassins (1995), Conspiracy Theory (1997), and Lethal Weapon 4 (1998).
I've only seen one of these, and don't recall seeing an old luteback HG
anywhere in it - but then, I wasn't really looking that closely. I
somehow doubt that it got used in Lethal Weapon 4 or Assassins. Maybe a
side project about a Second Empire mercenary who goes around central
France blowing up village churches and chateaux? Of course the hardware
would be a little less advanced, but the turn-of-the-century Industrial
Revolution designers loved the ornate and complex, so what it lacked in
lasers and LED's it could make up for in other ways...
Just a little wild speculation...
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 19:18:54 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] More HG spotting
Alden sez:
There's a list of films and other visual-media appearances of the HG on
the HG site, http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/films.html. I can see from the
discussion that there are some that I need to add.
Alden:
How about "The Hurdy Gurdy Player with the Pale Blue Eyes"? That sounds
like a real winner! <grin>
judith
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:00:34 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] More films
I may be wrong on this but who cares.
5 years ago I believe it was Richard Donner that was going to make a movie
about a Hurdy Gurdy player. If it was not him it was someone else.
Anyway he was at St. Chartier and was looking for people to be "extras" in
the movie. They gave me the story plot.
A weak, introverted, quiet guy, London bank Clerk ( Clark for you old
timers ) and can never seem to get the hang of having a girlfriend, has a
secret life.
He is a Hurdy Gurdy player. Not only that, he is one of the top players in
the world and when he goes to France on his holidays each summer he is
always surrounded by a flock of beautiful women.
The movie never got made.
r.t.
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:03:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] More HG spotting
>
> Alden:
> How about "The Hurdy Gurdy Player with the Pale Blue Eyes"? That sounds
> like a real winner! <grin>
I'll definitely put this one in! I'd love to see it - is it available on
video, Marcello?
Alden
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:12:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] More films
RT said,
> 5 years ago I believe it was Richard Donner that was going to make a movie
> about a Hurdy Gurdy player. If it was not him it was someone else.
That's about the right time for when we worked on the vielle...
>
> Anyway he was at St. Chartier and was looking for people to be "extras" in
> the movie. They gave me the story plot.
>
> A week, introverted, quiet guy, London bank Clerk ( Clark for you old
> timers ) and can never seem to get the hang of having a girlfriend, has a
> secret life.
> He is a Hurdy Gurdy player. Not only that, he is one of the top players in
> the world and when he goes to France on his holidays each summer he is
> always surrounded by a flock of beautiful women.
I see, one of those true-to-life plots...
With the possible exception of a certain player who wears a lot of black
leather and also has a girlfriend who plays HG, I've never noticed that
being a HG player has improved one's popularity with people of the
preferred gender.
> The movie never got made.
Why on earth not? ;-)
Alden
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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:50:12 -0000
From: Dave Praties <dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] popularity and hurdy-gurdies
Alden wrote:-
>
> With the possible exception of a certain player who wears a lot of black
> leather and also has a girlfriend who plays HG, I've never noticed that
> being a HG player has improved one's popularity with people of the
> preferred gender.
>
>
Sadly neither have I. My last girlfriend lived with me for three years
despite, she said, my being a hurdy-gurdy player. A bit of a nerve I
think, she plays bagpipes ! How the hell did she cope with St.
Chartier two years running
Dave
>
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:16:00 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
I posted this at "The Musical Instrument Maker's Forum," www.mimf.com:
I am working on a mahogany instrument, which will need to be colored a
couple of different shades of "dark." I^Òll be applying purfling
(combination of ebony and holly) around the edges of the cedar soundboard
(which will also be colored a similar shade of "dark"), plus some fairly
busy "celtic knotwork" style inlays (which will be similar to the ebony
and holly, though I might not end up using those woods, or woods at
all!). These inlays will be in the aforementioned "dark" mahogany. I was
planning on staining the wood with an oil-based stain (under water-based
finish... I've had good luck doing this as long as I let the stain dry
completely). So...
How should I proceed? If I inlay first, how can I possibly stain the
mahogany without staining the inlay work? I can't see masking a complex
inlay. If I stain first, I run the risk of sanding or scraping through
the stained mahogany when I'm leveling out the inlay, then I'm back to
square one, trying to "patch" the tinting. The situation is the same for
the soundboard purfling, though that would be easier to mask.
Does anyone inlay into woods whose color has to be adjusted? Or am I the
only one stupid enough to bother? I'd really appreciate some advice...
Anyone here have any suggestions or ideas? I've never had to think in
these specific "chicken or egg first" terms before. Alden, I should
think that your laser cutter lives for celtic knotwork inlay, but have
you ever dealt with wood coloring issues?
~ Matt
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:37:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Beatrice Richrath <beatrice.richrath _at_ gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] popularity and hurdy-gurdies
But of course it is like that!! I came in contact my new boy-friend in
Vienna through the german-austrian folkmail list, because I was looking for a
hurdy-gurdy teacher in Coburg/Germany and fortunately he knew someone some 80
km far away. Because we are both very passionated to the hurdy-gurdy we
started talking on that issue. I was very glad because there are not so many
people in germany who are playing hg, so I hadn´t somebody to discuss about
before.
At the end we found another love- us.
Béatrice
--
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:21:32 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: RE: [HG] More HG spotting
--- Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> wrote:
> I'll definitely put this one in! I'd love to see it
> - is it available on
> video, Marcello?
I hope no....
The story is idiot, the policeman is a very low level
actor and the german girl is a real "ciospo"
(.....meaning a kind of "not very nice"...).
Unfortunately I got a VHS cassette of the movie...when
Alden and Cali went to visit me I didn't show them the
movie on purpose...:o)
By the way....the title "la ghironda dagli occhi
azzurri" means "the hurdy gurdy with pale blu eyes".
About TV movies, some year ago there was a
VideoLaserDisc of a BBC production of "Beggar's Opera"
by Gay and Pepush. Two songs where performed by a real
HG player on a nice guitar shaped HG.
ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:36:27 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: il pastor fido
this is the story:
Nicolas Chedeville "arranged" several works by Italian
composers, mostly Vivaldi and Evaristo Felice
Dall'Abaco.
Among others he made his own arrengement of concerts
"il cimento dell'armonia e dell'invenzione" (12
concerts by Vivaldi, the "four seasons are 1 to 4 of
those) and some violin concerts by Dall'Abaco.
Chedeville called these opus as "music by Vivaldi (or
Dall'Abaco) arranged for musette, vielle etc by
Chedeville" (nevertheless some movements where written
by Chedeville).
Probably (if I were French I'd write "for sure" :o) he
made the same with Vivaldi opus 13 "il pastor fido"
but for commercial reason he preferred to publish
those sonatas as sonatas by Vivaldi "tout court" :o)
Some movements of pastor fido are esactly the same as
some earlier Vivaldi works (from opus 4 onward) and
probably Chedeville wrote the rest "in style of"...I
think he did a great job as he never wrote (as
Chedeville) such a great bass parts....
ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:59:04 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] popularity and hurdy-gurdies
Alden wrote:-
> > With the possible exception of a certain player
> who wears a lot of black
> > leather and also has a girlfriend who plays HG,
> I've never noticed that
> > being a HG player has improved one's popularity
> with people of the
> > preferred gender.
I used black leather when I was a biker
(motorcycle...) and mandolin player...now I'm smart ,
I use bright yellow and orange capilene, I'm cyclist
and HG player, and since 1997 my "people of the
preferred gender" are almost all HG players :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 02:46:46 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
Matt wrote:
> I am working on a mahogany instrument...
Have you tried art masking fluid applied with a very fine brush? Maybe an
optivisor or other magnifier would be useful to stay within the lines.
> If I stain first, I run the risk of sanding or scraping through the
>stained mahogany when I^Òm leveling out the >inlay, then I'm back to square
>one, trying to "patch" the tinting.
How about using penetrating stains or dyes?
> The situation is the same for the soundboard purfling, though that would
>be easier to mask.
>
> Does anyone inlay into woods whose color has to be adjusted? Or am I the
>only one stupid enough to bother? I^Òd really appreciate some advice...
I have never tried this but just a suggestion: Apply the inlay dry or with
a low tack glue and sand or scrape flush. Then remove the inlays, do your
staining (hopefully the wood won't swell too much) and when dry glue in the
inlays.
I am pondering on a similar issue: I am about to start work on a soundboard
with mother of pearl and ebony edging and a painted border just inside the
edging. The whole will be French polished with dark shellac except for the
m.o.p. and ebony edging which I wish to keep in their natural colour as is
the practice with French hurdy gurdies.
Now then, If I paint and polish first and then cut a recess for the inlay,
I cannot sand flush without damaging the finish and possibly the painting,
so it seems I need to do the inlaying of the edging first. My question is:
Do I French polish over the inlays and later carefully scrape it off, or do
I mask the inlays and if I do will this not leave a 'tidemark'. There are
so many hurdy gurdies with this combination that it must be a common task,
I just don't know" how it's done". Any suggestions?
Juan
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:19:41 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
> > The situation is the same for the soundboard
> purfling, though that would
> >be easier to mask.
> >
> > Does anyone inlay into woods whose color has to be
> adjusted?
I did, but I used bone and ebony inlay...no need of
any mask (if you like "ancient looking" bone) or....
> Do I French polish over the inlays and later
> carefully scrape it off
it depends on what kind of French polish are you going
to use, sometimes you can let a clear polish over the
inlays (in order to avoid a strong contrast betveen
matt and bright surfaces)
ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
______________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:41:11 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Black Robe,
Hi ,
For those not who have not seen the film , it is the story of a young
French priest sent to convert the Indians in a remote area of the New
France in 1634. The film was directed by Bruce Beresford ( not Denis
Arcand ) and was based on a novel ,itself based on the " Relation des
Jésuites" a serie of yearly reports written by the religious congrégation
about the progress of the work done in New France. The Québec city of 1634
has been re-created in the Saguenay area and is now a tourist attraction .
This is were it becomes interesting , in the year 1636 ( two years after
the action in the film ) there is a paragraph that mention that the
Indians requested that " un jeune François"( a young frenchman ) played
his hurdy gurdy for them , " as a sign of friendship and brotherly love"
so they could dance to it . As far as I know it is the first mention of a
HG player in North America .
It the film ,Daniel Thonon ( young frenchman <g>) plays the big lute back
( 1636 ?) visible on the cover of Ad Vielle 's " Musaïque" CD .In the
group of dancer you can see Gilles Plante , who played the bagpipe with Ad
Vielle .
The description of the Indians is conform with the description of the
Jésuites so no surprise they are dirty and sexually immoral , but in the
film they are much smarter than the young priest , they know how to
survive in difficult environement, they see the political aspect of
religious conversion ( something the young idealist does not ) and not the
least , they know good music when they hear it!
Henry
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:45:09 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Robe Noire,
Pictures of the 1634 Québec city and Huron village site
:http://royaume.com/robenoire/
The film also descript the Frenchmen smart enough to adopt the Indian
way of life .<g>
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:03:51 -0800
From: jjandr _at_ netzero.net
Subject: Re: [HG] More HG spotting
There is a very short HG bit on the television series "Connections." The
first episode of the series previews what is to come and has a few seconds
of HG. The part they are previewing comes (I think) at the beginning of the
third episode where you only see the HG a few seconds but hear it for a bit
longer. This is the original Connections series with the one hour episodes.
Joanne
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:34:41 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
Sorry Matt, can't help with your problem except to suggest a heavy dose of
UV light which should darken you mahogany and not affect holly too much.
> I am pondering on a similar issue: I am about to start work on a
soundboard
> with mother of pearl and ebony edging and a painted border just inside the
> edging. The whole will be French polished with dark shellac except for the
> m.o.p. and ebony edging which I wish to keep in their natural colour as is
> the practice with French hurdy gurdies.
> Now then, If I paint and polish first and then cut a recess for the inlay,
> I cannot sand flush without damaging the finish and possibly the painting,
> so it seems I need to do the inlaying of the edging first. My question is:
> Do I French polish over the inlays and later carefully scrape it off, or
do
> I mask the inlays and if I do will this not leave a 'tidemark'. There are
> so many hurdy gurdies with this combination that it must be a common task,
> I just don't know" how it's done". Any suggestions?
>
> Juan
>
The way I do this is to complete all inlay work, then seal with clear
varnish. Apply colour coats and then as you say, carefully scrape it off the
inlay - it remains on the painted border. I tend to scrape off the worst and
then use 400 grit wet & dry paper to feather the edge. the clear top coats
will then build over the edge. This is with oil varnish, it may be different
with French polish.
>
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:51:10 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] inlay and finish
Hi Matt and Juan,
I have a few suggestions for both of you. First the easy part - Juan, I
have done this with mop and french polish alot. All you have to do is put
some alcohol on a swab and remove the shellac when you are finished. This
does not leave an "edge" or witness line and as long as you are not over
generous with the alcohol so that it bleeds on the rest of your finish you
should be fine. BTW colored shellac on mop can create a lovely effect
giving the mop a gold tone which is quite pretty. As a side note, most if
not all of the big makers in France are spraying nitrocellulose lacquer
these days so they don't have to worry about this. They just spray right
over everything.
Matt, what you are trying to do is possible, I have done it, but you are
not going to enjoy the process at all. Also, with regard to mixing an oil
based stain and top coating with a water base I think you are playing with
fire here. Even if it appears to work while you have the instrument in
hand the likelihood of this combination standing the test of time is low to
nonexistant. Oil based products in particular have a drying/curing time of
years not days, weeks or months. I don't want to go into a chemistry
lesson, please trust me that it really isn't a good idea. I have done
repairs on some french instruments including some made by Bernard Kerbouef
where after a couple of years his topcoat lacquer just stripped right off.
If you want to use a water based topcoat, your best bet is to use either a
water or alcohol solvent aniline dye. Neither should interfere with your
topcoat. The advantage to the alcohol base is that it will not raise the
grain nearly as much as the water base, the disavantage may be the cost of
the solvent. I am pretty picky about my solvents and since I use it for
french polish I don't use denatured alcohol. They don't have to tell you
what they denature with and it is usually something pretty nasty like
methyl alcohol or toluene. Neither of which do I want to have on my hands
or breathe for any length of time. I use pure grain alcohol which is 190
proof. Here in Washington we have to have a permit to buy it, it may be
easily obtainable in your part of the world, I don't know. Here we call it
Everclear and I have to sign a statement saying that I won't drink it :-)
What they don't tell you is that running it through a spraygun can have
felicitous effects :-)
Anyway you do this you are going to have to isolate your inlay with some
sort of mask. So sorry, it just isn't possible to get good results any
other way. This includes below surface isolation. The easiest way to do
this is to put your inlay in with cyanoacrylate (superglue) and make sure
that all the edges around the inlay are completely sealed or your dye will
penetrate. Also to make life easier for yourself make sure that the edge
of the inlay which touches the substrate is a dark wood so that any goofs
are less likely to show. If you are going to use a black white purfling
strip I would reconsider and use a black white black instead. Shell isn't
as much of a problem because as long as you wipe it off asap it shouldn't
stain.
So, you cut your cavities, put your inlay in with c.a., mask the inlay
which you can either do with a solid mask like tape or contact paper and
you can make this step easier by covering your inlay material with this
before you cut it, then you are cutting your mask at the same time you are
cutting the inlay. You have to strip the mask off to sand or scrape the
inlay flush and then reapply it in situ. Or you can mask with a liquid
which is impervious to your dye and removes with a solvent that doesn't
affect the rest of your finish. I prefer to use a solid mask because it is
easier to get just right and less tricky to remove without damaging your
final finish.
Finally you dye your substrate and put your topcoats on and as you sand
your topcoats you pay very careful attention so that you do not get halos
around your mask. Then you strip the mask. Or, if you are using a clear
topcoat you can strip the mask first. Just make sure that you don't sand
through any layers of topcoat because even the sanding dust can contaminate
light colored inlay.
Somewhere in the process (preferably before you commit yourself) you call
your customer and tell them that it is going to cost them alot more than
you originally estimated and do they really want it done this way?
Good luck,
Cali
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Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:56:14 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
--------I am not "smart" enough for a great, technical
responce, however I wanted to say that I read once about how
the makers of Hardanger fiddles deal with this sort of thing
very much.
There, the inlay is On the finger board and those boards wear
unevenly. So, a beautiful antique Hardanger fiddle has almost
the kind of challenge you have suggested--to affect wood and
yet not hurt the other materials.
jim
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 02:44:47 -0500
From: Bruce Nally <bln _at_ idirect.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hey builders and woodworkers...
I had some Boufard banding inlay that I had to protect from a dark stain,
After final sanding I covered the banding surface with artist water color
frisket, it's like a rubber membrane that you rub off later, and I used a
Gel rub on stain, I used this because it doesn't have a tendency to bleed
under the frisket, You put the frisket on with an artist brush and you
put the stain on with care not to rub the frisket. Make sure if you want
to try this to test on samples first.
Bruce
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 07:13:41 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Tight Tangents
Hello,
I am preparing to build a hurdy gurdy soon and I have
a question concerning attachment of the tangents. I
know of 3 ways of attaching the tangents to the key
shafts.
1. Traditional one piece wood tangents with a tapered
wood pin which seats in a hole in the key shaft.
2. Wooden tangents with a metal tapered pin which is
glued into the tangent and seats in a hole in the key
shaft.
3. Wooden tangent with a hole drilled through it and
screwed to the key shaft with a small bolt which
threads into the key shaft.
I only have experience with number 1 above and
although it works well, the change from summer to
winter where I live does require the tangents to be
pulled in or out slightly depending on the seasonal
change in humidity in order to maintain the correct
amount of tightness. Does anyone have a favorite
method of attaching the tangents that is reliable and
not dependent on changes in humidity? I have tried a
test of Number 3 above but when I turn the tangent
counter-clockwise when adjusting it, the bolt starts
to unscrew. Is it necessary if using the bolt method
to use a screwdriver to tighten the tangents every
time they are adjusted?
Any thoughts on this topic would be appreciated.
Thanks,
David Smith
Dearborn, Michigan USA
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:22:50 -0800
From: george swallow <swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Tight Tangents
There will be dozens of favourite ways, but mine is No 1 but without a
taper. If you drill the holes and then use the same size drill in a thin
steel plate (about 2mm will do), you can hammer the NEAR FINISHED tangent
into the hole and the slight compression from this will keep it tight when
in position.
Over to the experts.
George Swallow
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:59:42 -0700
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Tight Tangents
Here's a variation on #3 I experimented with but eventually gave up
on since I did not find a glue that worked well. Perhaps someone has
a suggestion of how to improve upon this, since I found that it did
not run into the problem David describes.
Rather than drilling through the tangent I prepared the tangents from
a long strip of wood and routed a cove into one edge. The radius on
the bit was about 3/64", as I recall, and it left a nice slight
dimple along the length of the strip.
I then cut the tangents to length and used Elmer's ProBond, a
polyurethane glue that I normally swear by (I have even repaired my
bagpipe using it!), to glue the tangents to a shaft cut from hobby
store brass tubing (which is nice because you can get it in 1/64"
size increments).
To attach the tangents to the key shafts I ran a flat head sheet
metal screw through the tubing and into a pre-drilled hole in the
key. It is important to use a flat head screw because it is the
downward and outward pressure provided by the flaring of the head
that holds the tangent in place. Because the sheet metal screws have
such shallow threads and because I put them in holes that were just
barely undersized I found that they really didn't move at all, even
when moving the tangents, and I could set the tension on the tangent
very easily by simply turning the screw in or out.
The problem I ran into is that the glue simply did not hold. Part of
the problem may have been a mismatch between the radius of the router
bit and the exterior radius of the brass tubes, which reduced the
glue surface that was actually in contact. It is also possible that
the glue itself was inadequate for brass tubing, which is really
quite smooth.
One interesting side note is that when I bought the sheet metal
screws I asked the fellow at the hardware store what the shaft
diameter of the screws was so I could match them to a wood drill bit.
He asked why I wanted to know since sheet metal screws are not used
in wood (he clearly thought I was an idiot) and then lectured me for
fifteen minutes on why I was doing something unorthodox and he
wouldn't be responsible if it didn't work. Well of course it worked
and I knew what I was doing, but the unorthodox bit was certainly
true, as it always is with HGs.
-Arle
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:13:58 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Tangent
On my first HG I used size 2/56X1 bolts , that I found at an electronic
supplies store ( I guess they are used to repair walkmans and other
miniature gizmos) the nuts for these bolts are 3.5mm wide and 1.5 thick ,
small enough to be inserted in the counter sink hole of a 5X7 mm key
shaft. I place a bolt in the drill press to press the nut squarely in
place no glue needed . The tangent is drilled and counter sinked (because
the bolts that I found are to short for the long tangents ) . Of course it
needs to be loosened before adjustements and tightened after . With a good
drill press, a few templates and very sharp drill to makes the holes in
the end grain, it is almost a " no brainer" job.
It is very solid , looks neat but take sooo loooonnnggg to make that I
will used your solution # 2 next time .
Henry
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:28:43 -0800
From: Cynthia A. Wright <cwright _at_ smartt.com>
Subject: [HG] Inquiry into HG maker
Greetings all,
As some of you on the list may know, I'm looking to get a new HG.
Therefore, I'd like to call upon the collective expertise of the list to
see if anyone has any knowledge of the German HG maker Helmut Gotchy, and
the quality of his instruments.
If any of you have one of his HGs, I'd be interested in hearing your
thoughts and comments on it.
For those curious, his Web site is at...
http://www.gotschy.com/english/
Thanks all,
Cynthia Wright
Vancouver, BC
Canada
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:38:26 -0500
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Inquiry into HG maker
Hi Cynthia,
I saw those in St Chartier , they look good and as far as it was
possible to judge under the rain, they sound good , but I did not have the
occasion to try them . The very modern style ones , like the Novello are
very nice , I do not remember the lute back ones .
Henry
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:44:51 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: [HG] Re: Nycklelharpa
If this is of some interest: I found a CD today I had
searched for a lot. I rally like drone music. It is termed a
nyckelharpa orchestra. That would be six of them. I love
this sort of thing. Folk instruments. I have 3 of the series
of the Viellistic Orchestra.
Where this Nyckelharpa orchestra was found is in the
cataloge from Elderly music in Michigan. The last page. The
CD issue may be from Northside music. I ordered it today...
I had mentioned that label here in the states, out of
Minnisota.www.noside.com it says.
I wish to mention also that Northside issues an awesome solo
Nyckleharpa album. It is Green. sorry. It is called
Storsvarten, NSD 6017, artist Olov Johansson. I have that
one. It is solo, or with guitar and a little organ.
Reflective. No band or vocals. Bare. Really awesome.
We sit at computers at night, eating cheese cake and
listening to vielle music. Little yippers dance around. Dogs
snoozing. That's it.
Jim Winters
177 Stillwater ave. dome
ORONO, ME 04473
usa
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:54:31 -0500
From: kidz _at_ prexar.com
Subject: [HG] happy holidays
Ya'll, now, where must all these here lines all be comin'
from?
Bait 'em for home and mother!
...ya cross-eyed mackrel...
He's a plank deeper in the water then the last time we saw
'em.
I know this bottom as well as my wife knows her own kitchen.
................. ..................
................. .................. .............
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:46:02 -1000
From: Don V. Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Inquiry into HG maker
Hi Cynthia-
I own a Helmut Gotschy "Phoenix" and totally love it. He's in the process
of making me a French Lute-back, with pickups and extra strings. I find
him very easy to work with, an excellent craftsman, and very reasonably
priced.
Best wishes and Aloha-
Don
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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:14:10 -0000
From: Neil Brook <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Tight Tangents
Hi David. I have been using option 3 for years without any problems such as
you describe. The trick is to fit a spring washer under the head of the
screw. This bites into the tangent and slides under the screw head. The
screw is only tightened lightly to allow adjustment.The other trick is to
use a taper tap but not go right through the key. this gives a stiff last
few turns of the screw.
Neil
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Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:32:34 -0500
From: Allan Janus <ajanus _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Something for the Season
I've posted a song for the season - "Tomorrow Will be My
Dancing Day", sung by Lucie Skeaping, with Ray Attfield on
the hurdy. It's from a Saydisc CD, (#371) "Christmas Now is
Drawing Near", performed by Sneak's Noyse. My copy is a
Musical Heritage Society reissue.
http://janusmuseum.org/audio/tomorrow.ram
Allan Janus
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