Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - March 2002
|
|
|
|
Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:10:22 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start
Today I received my lute-back gurdy from Helmut Gotschy. It's been a
long wait, (three years) but totally worth it. I cried with joy when I
finally held this beautiful piece of art. And the music poured out of
her and me together, as though I'd waited lifetimes for this moment.
Once tuned, she sang with her own soul, and the songs buried within my
own soul for centuries came flowing out, my fingers dancing over the
keys, my right hand turning the crank and effortlessly coaxing forth the
rhythmic pulse of wheel and chien.
Dances in three and six,, two-steps and bourees, musettes and wild 7/8
gypsy melodies, droning fantasias with heavy vibrato in the left hand-
all this music I've never heard in this lifetime, wafting back like
smoke from a minstrel's road-side campfire. I'm just rapt with listening
to this magic sound that's vibrating me deeper than my own bones,
casting the opening spell that reawakens the long-forgotten but deeply
longed-for spirit of my own true nature.
This is why I was born, to make this sound again.
Being on Maui it's good to have this "extended family" of hurdy gurdy
enthusiasts, and such a wealth of wisdom and shared experience.
Hopefully I'll entice some of you over here one day to make music
together. Meanwhile thanks for the community.
Aloha-
Don
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:48:59 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
> Hi Nathan, I'm in the process of getting my hurdy gurdy built and
>should have it in my hands within two months. Your letter sounds like
>something I'll be writing after getting mine. Hope we can both progress
>and become players.
I will second, third or fourth that. I just spoke to my friend who is
waiting for her two new gurdies to be made by Chris Eaton. Can you imagine?
Two at once! I will be buying her trusty old friend when they are complete.
Hopefully this summer.
My question is regarding transport. Seeing as I am in Eastern Canada and
she is in Eastern England, I have a couple options I can think of. Nigel
Eaton was telling her about a safe and inexpensive way to transport it in a
crate via boat. I am a little queesy about that as I had a computer
hard-drive killed on that same route. Maybe some of you have some
re-assurance about that method. The other possibilty is a trip to pick it
up. Definately a lot more fun, and practical in that it would include some
lessons from her (a wonderful experienced player) on all those finer points
that were brought up by Nathan. I guess the problem (besides additional
expense) would be flying home with it. I have read some of the tips for
travel that Pierre Imbert had recommended on the web-site. Maybe those of
you who have travelled recently have some extra advice. I would love to
hear your thoughts. (The hurdy comes with a hard-shell case)
Thanks Also hoping to be playing soon.
Alison
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:07:28 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Mine was just shipped to me via DHL from Germany. It was supposed to
take two days, but customs held it in New York for a week and it took
ten. The morons seemed to think it was some dangerous baroque weapon...
After emailing them pictures of the instrument under construction, they
released it...
As a professional violinist I can tell you that flying with any
instrument has always been difficult, but since 9/11 it has become
nearly disastrous. As long as you can get the instrument onto the plane
with you and into the overhead bin without anyone swinging their 150 lb.
box of pineapples on top of it... you're home safe...
Best of luck-
Don
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:36:02 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Another hint on carrying instruments by air. Most security guards at
the metal detectors are going to tell you "we've been ordered by the
FAA not to let anyone bring packages that don't fit in the size guide
past security". The response that should get you through is, "I'm
going to check this at the gate because it's very fragile". It is
highly likely that no one at the gate will say a word and you'll be
able to walk on with the case, although having an unusual case may
make it more likely that they are going to check you out thoroughly.
Flying from Alaska recently I had my bags thoroughly searched and
sloppily repacked twice by security people (I was carrying an er-hu,
a Chinese two-string fiddle with me), once at the metal detector and
then again at the gate. I was a little ticked off at that point,
especially as I was trying to take care of my 2-year old daughter who
understood nothing about what was going on. The airlines really need
to get their act together and get some way of making sure that they
don't double efforts on some people (once through is really enough)
since that is a waste of everyone's time.
So expect the security people to look at anything strange as a
potential threat (I guess they have to!) and to be very moronic about
anything they haven't seen before. If you get smart ones then you're
lucky. (In case no one heard, Congress was going to make it a
requirement that screeners have a high-school diploma until they
found out that would have disqualified over a fourth of screeners
then working. So much for a highly-trained security force. But let
that warn you about the troubles you may run into.)
-Arle
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:13:47 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] air travel
I recently had a good experience travelling by air with a hurdy gurdy
simply wrapped in bubble wrap held in place with rubber bands.
I don't have a hard case, and even if I did I would not feel secure enough
to see my instrument disappear into the netherworld ofBaggage-handlerland
in one.
I have always put my instrument in the overhead bins in a soft case, this
however breeds its own brand of anxiety, the danger coming from fellow
passangers who will try and squeeze their 'all you can legally carry' cases
against or on top of your instrument. This is where the bubble wrap comes
in, it allows even the most undiscriminating passanger,( customs or
security officer for that matter) to see right away that they are not
dealing with a bag of dirty laundry. For good measure I place a bulky coat
or sweater behind it so that the instrument is right at the front and
nobody will be tempted to squeeze in something in front of it. This will
also give the instrument extra padding and less room to slide about. As a
final touch you can decorate your parcel with a few FRAGILE stickers,
which you can get at the check-in desk. You can also remove the handle and
all pegs, which will make the instrument more streamlined and therefore
less vulnerable.
If you are thinking of picking up your instrument in person, I would
suggest you fill your hard case with dirty laundry and take your baby with
you as carry on.
Juan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:46:34 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Air travel
Where can I find a case like this, is it custom made? Do they have a web
site?
Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:59:07 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel
This can be somewhat mitigated by sitting as far back in the airplane
as possible. When I was flying to Alaska I was in row six on the
airplane, which is the first row in coach on that particular plane,
and they had us board with first class. When I asked why the flight
attendant said it is because if they don't do that people fill up the
front bins before the people sitting in that row can put anything in
them and there is no under-seat storage there. Sure enough person
after person got in and filled up any space available in the front
bins and then headed for the back.
The flight attendant also told us never to do that because theft from
those front bins is very high since thieves know that many of the
bags belong to people sitting in the back of the plane who won't be
able to see them or stop them, plus people tend to pack their
valuables in their carry-ons. She said all the time they see bags
being stolen and can do nothing about it since they can move no more
than anyone else while the plane is emptying and then the bag's owner
comes up and acts as if it's the airline's fault that he stuck his
bag on the wrong end of the plane and got it stolen.
All in all what this means is that if you are going to carry on
anything like an HG head for the back of the plane since you won't
have to compete for space so much and fewer people will go by who
could cause problems by dropping their box of lead soldiers on your
instrument's bridge.
-Arle
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:26:58 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Air travel
I think that the age of keeping a HG in the cokpit is over
, if you
ever face really smart security people ( is it possible ?
) they would
know
that a HG axle coug be made with a pointed end and fit in a
cone shaped
bearing .
Simply get a GOOD case and pay for the over weight .
What is a good case ? , Jump on it with both feet , drop
it from the
second floor on the side walk . This is a good case for
air travel
It will be cube shaped , with metal edges . ( probably
black <g>)
Henry
Bonus :
It will serve as bench or table next time you go at St
Chartier
here , 18th picture from top
http://www.chez.com/vielleux/stchartier99/pix99.htm
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:29:09 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Fw: wanted hurdy-gurdy
Anyone out there want to rent or sell a HG to this person?
r.t.
----- Original Message -----
From: "damian" <damian _at_ voxpop.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.music.early
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:56 AM
Subject: wanted hurdy-gurdy
> Can anyone help me by renting or possibly selling an unwanted Hurdy
> Gurdy or Drehleier? Cheeky I know but I'm desperate to get playing and
> I'm struggling to free up the necessary money to buy a new quality
> instrument. You can check out my credentials at voxpopmusic.co.uk, it
> wouldn't be wasted! Many thanks Damian
>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:02:45 -0500
From: Eugene <eugenebienvenue _at_ softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Hi,
I know I've been a non-participatory "lurker" for these many months on the
list.
So I guess I should introduce myself first.
My name is Eugene, and I was, and will soon be again,. a
street-performer\renaissance musician, playing hurdy-gurdy, lute, and
various renaissance wind instruments.
I travelled extensively throughout Europe for about 10 years, with my now
ex-wife (recorders\renaisssance wind), getting gigs when we could, and
playing small renaissance and medieval tourist towns when we couldn't.
I built my own HurdyGurdy from the EarlyMusicShop kit, (on a beach, in
Greece), and having never heard one performed, proceeded to hack my way
through our repertoire. Needless to say, the HG was a hit with client and
tourist alike, and it (if not I), after countless adjustments, ended up
playing marvelously well .
It was only that summer that I saw my first Gurdy player. The hurdyGurdy
still has a relatively strong tradition in certain parts of France, and it
was in Brittany that I had my sirst experience of how this wonderful
invention was meant to be
played.
And this is my point: it was in seeing an experienced player, first-hand,
that I learned the most about HG technique. At first, my mind, and body
rebelled at the possibility of reproducing what he was capable of. But until
I had seen it first-hand, I had no idea that such things were possible.
It is of course impractical to suggest going to Celtic France to see the
players there. But if you take every opportunity you can to catch any HG
performance, you may well benefit as i did. And with that initial
breakthrough, pieces heard on CD etc started to make more sense and also
became a great learning tool.
Hope this helps, and have fun....leave the mental musings the guitarists and
lutenists :)
Eugene
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:06:26 -0800
From: Patricia Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel
I've been following with interest the messages about traveling with a
hg. Last month I traveled by air with a Minstrel borrowed from a friend
(I guess the capitalization helps to clarify that I my friend did not
lend me a troubadour to keep me company on my trip). Anyway the
instrument seemed to trigger a lot of increased scrutiny. I am a short
harmless-looking grandmother, but not only did the instrument get
checked over very thoroughly, I also got frisked pretty thoroughly and
had to take off my shoes for examination. The security people didn't
seem to quite believe that the hg was a musical instrument. I was afraid
they might ask me to prove it was an instrument by playing it; if I were
not able to play better than I do most of the time, they might have been
more convinced than before that I was dangerous.
Trish
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:33:29 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Air travel
It is made locally , I guess it must be available in most cities, they
make cases for électric pianos and électronic equipment .
Just ask at the shop that sells électric guitars . They also run adds in
musician
union's newspaper . Also offer discounts to professional musicians .
The friend who lended me the case travels with a HG and and électric piano
the other member of the duo caries a guitar a mandocello and two violins.
No way it can all fit in the overhead bin.<g>
Theo Bick a écrit :
> Where can I find a case like this, is it custom made? Do they have a web
> site?
>
> Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:35:12 -0800
From: Sheila Donoghue <sheilaann _at_ msn.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel
Trish:
I think even being able to coax any sort of sound from the "instrument"
would have caused security to pass you through quite easily. I know that,
around my house, my amateur playing ability causes the family to hurry me
out the door to my hg events <g>
Sheila
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:19:56 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
In a message dated 3/1/02 10:39:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
arle _at_ lisa.org writes:
Congress was going to make it a
requirement that screeners have a high-school diploma until
they
found out that would have disqualified over a fourth of
screeners
then working. So much for a highly-trained security force.
Arle, there IS a difference between "highly-trained" and
"highly-educated." An airport screener doesn't have to be a rocket
scientist to check luggage. Not attempting to defend airport security
people as I've had my "disagreements with them also.
Jake Conte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:38:12 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
I know that I would not have progressed anywhere near as fast had it not
been for the constant help and support from my teacher (and friend) Mike
Gilpin. If you can possibly manage to find a teacher, the skill of playing
the HG will come that much easier.
Having played guitar and banjo for many years, and more recently bodhran,
the Hurdy Gurdy presented me with a completely new set of skills to learn.
Apart from a year playing piano as a child, and later a short spell of
classical guitar, I hadn't played a melody instrument. (I've used the other
instruments as accompaniment to singing, and in a ceilidh band, more as
rhythm than tune). Getting my fingers to work at the right speed was the
first hurdle...and still on-going but getting better. The bodhran playing
has certainly helped with the trompette technique. One of the most helpful
things, apart from regular lessons, has been getting together once a month
at the local French dance group and playing with other musicians. At first,
I could only join in the trompetting, (and then only when in the right key
as I have a GC, but I have since learned to retune the trompette to D, which
opens up lots more possibilities), but now can quite confidently 'lead' a
tune or join in with a lot of the tunes that are played. The most important
thing when playing for dance is keeping a steady rhythm, so this is very
good discipline.
Basic maintenance of the instrument can also be frightening at first. My
Gurdy, (a Gotschy Phoenix...hello Helmut), is pretty stable and reliable,
although not fond of high humidity, and requires very little attention other
than the usual rosin/cotton wool thing. Again, playing with other HG
players, and drawing from their experiences is invaluable.
I am currently in the process of organising a Hurdy Gurdy weekend here in
sunny Cambridgeshire, (UK), on the weekend of Sept 7th/8th. Mike will be
running a beginners' workshop on GC instruments, and Chris Allen on DGs. We
will also have bagpipe workshops, and possibly guitar as well.
Details/cost/etc are still to be finalised, but if anyone is interested,
please feel free to contact me off-list. The workshops will run all day on
both days, and will take place in the excellent village centre at Haddenham,
near Ely. (I have previously run 2 similar events in this venue with Cliff
Stapleton and Mike York providing the tuition).
Keeping on playing!
Ruth
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:27:54 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: [HG] looking for a teacher
Well it's official. I'm on Maui, with a beautiful new hurdy gurdy, and
no teacher (or anyone else who plays at all) within two thousand miles.
If someone on the west coast who's a qualified teacher wants a trip to
Maui, I'll pay the air fare in trade for a week of lessons. I have 40
years experience on the violin, and seem to be doing quite well on my
own, but I'd really like to hang out with someone who has mastered the
art...
Let me know if you're interested-
Aloha-
Don
donvlax _at_ maui.net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:44:47 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher
Isn't Maui that island with the dyslexic cats?
The next selection from the AMTA series (No.3 1999) is on my site -
selected by Jac Lavergne, there are some really interesting tunes.
Apologies to G/C players but the files were starting to get unwieldy - it's
not so hard to transpose the ones you want.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:47:13 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: tunes online was: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher
Hello,
Neil Brooks:
The next selection from the AMTA series (No.3 1999) is on my site -
> selected by Jac Lavergne, there are some really interesting tunes.
> Apologies to G/C players but the files were starting to get unwieldy - it's
> not so hard to transpose the ones you want.
talking about tunes, may I recomend a visit to my personal choisse of
music in the net:
Just click on one of the links:
laendler lieder mazurka polka galopp dreher schottisch
6/8 taenze steirer walzer zwiefach iodler schleunige
gruppen-taenze bourree à deux temps bourree à trois temps
bretonische taenze andere taenze
on my music homepage.
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/homepage_abc.htm
most parts are acctualized to the new design, including pictures, abc
text and midi of the tunes some parts are still 'abc only'.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:30:07 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Dear list,
Thank you for all the replies. I've been somewhat late to answer back
because of my tendancy to labor over email tuned by instrument and demonstrated
that it could work
properly. I didn't really get any good playing lessons, but the basics were
presented, and I know it has the capacity to function!
>What caused you to be interested in this instrument?
One basic feature of my personality seems to be an attraction to things no
one else cares about, like ancient languages and scripts. The HG was
interesting because it's an almost unknown instrument, but can still play
traditional Western music (unlike the sitar or didjeridu). I also like the
droning sound, and I'm learning French. In two years perhaps I'll take a
semester abroad where you really can get formal lessons.
>What musical experiences do you have so far?
I played the cello for eight years, and have reamained about at the level of
a first-year. This is probably due to the fact that I never liked to
practise. In a school where the largest graduating class in years was ten,
there weren't many programs to choose from!
>Are you getting family support?
My father worked for weeks building parts and helping me construct it, so
I'd say so! The first time I played it for the whole family, they all said
it sounded better than what I'd been threatening.
>I realize that funny jokes abound about pets and people running for >their
>lives.
My only pet is a gecko that isn't even at college with me yet. Even if it
were here, the thing's much too emotionally latent to provoke my sympathy.
You can even look into its ear holes and see light on the other side!
>Do you offer any photos such as a personal web page about your >instrument?
I think I emailed some really low quality photos to Alden. Basically, it
just looks like a Musicmaker's with some added Volksgurdy parts. Now that I
think about it, I really don't have that much reason to complain. The
biggest problem is forcing myself to remember I'm not supposed to be perfect
yet. Even the trompette is already functioning fairly easily, and I can
produce a blurry coup de 2.
Anyway... thanks again for the responses. I will certainly try to get to the
festival this year, even though it's during school. My main problems are
simply a reluctance to practise because I don't want to display any
incopetance, but of course that'll cause me to remain that way! Okay...
Here's one last direct question before I get back to work: Since I don't
have any experience with keyboard instruments, am I supposed to memorize
which key a particular written note represents directly, or simply relative
to other keys? With the cello, it was very easy to read music, but now I
feel like it's all being done by ear. Perhaps this will force me to be more
of a musician instead of a mere technician...
Well, talk to you all later. Sincerely,
Nathan Roy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 11:04:09 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?
Nathan Roy:
> Here's one last direct question before I get back to work: Since I don't
> have any experience with keyboard instruments, am I supposed to memorize
> which key a particular written note represents directly, or simply relative
> to other keys? With the cello, it was very easy to read music, but now I
> feel like it's all being done by ear. Perhaps this will force me to be more
> of a musician instead of a mere technician...
(nearly) all the baroque music is in G/C what means that it is possible
to read this music directly as the hurdy gurdy keyboard has - in a G/C
tuning - the same key/pitch relation than the piano keyboard and the
notation system
In gerneral the traditional dance music stuff must be learned by heart
for playing it and is often played in other keys than written too
(sometimes played in different keys with different instrumental
partners). For this and for a better musical understanding it is very
usefull to learn to read music relatively to its root: Identify the
scale and attach the functions within this scale to the staff lines
using numbers: third fourth etc (this also includes to know the function
of the key/note in the two to four keys usually played on a hurdy gurdy:
C is root of C, fourth of G, fifth of G and minor seventh of D).
This also allows to transpose music written in (all) other keys easier.
look up the lowest note in the melody:for example if it is fifth, sixth
or seventh of the scale play it in the key/scale that starts at the
third key of the keyboard ( in C on a G/C, in G on a D/G) etc.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:44:27 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel
Thanks so much for all your prompt and helpful responses to my query.
I am starting to favour the shipping approach. I have to get over the
irrational fear that the beauty will be safer in my hot little hands, but I
think a lot of that is just the anticipation of a wait for shipping after
all the waiting thus far.
Maybe I should save my air fare for the cheaper trip to Seattle for the
festival.
Cheers, Alison
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 18:21:54 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: [HG] French traditional repertoire
Hello,
The better I learn to know this central French repertoire the more I get
the impression that most of those wonderfull tunes were written in the
last thirty years. I ask myself if the old traditional repertoire was of
the same 'quality' and if it also used this variety of scales dorian,
mixolydian, minor, or if it was dominated by simple major tunes as for
example here in Austria. Is there any scientific research done on this
or better readable summarys of this scientific matters ?
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:29:11 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] French traditional repertoire
Hello Simon,
I'm afraid there's no book or paper about that. There were plenty tunes
usings modes, specially songs. The "Folklore" had choosen almost only
major tunes for the dances. Around 1970, the work of Frederic and others
was to rediscover old modal tunes. But the most important part of modal
dancing tunes were lost. So we took songs which were in the bourrée style
to play them as dances. For example Achille MILLIEN collected thousand of
songs around 1880-1900, but only a few dances tunes, because he was
interested mainly by popular litterature (songs, tales...).
And we wrote some tunes in the song's modes...
Maxou
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:42 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher
Hello Don,
Oh what the heck, I suppose I could tear myself away for a week. I am a
qualified teacher. Is next week OK?
Regards,
Theo Bick
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:27:13 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: [HG] what are the prizes for HG- lessons
Hello list,
I am a HG (and recorder/flute) teacher in Germany and I am always
astonished because HG lessons are mostly much cheaper than lessons for
other instruments like piano, guitar, violin,....flute.....
So I`d like to know your experiences.
What are the prizes for HG teachers and what is their qualifikation
(studies of music or how long do they play their instrument, do they play
other instruments?...)
I suppose it`s better to contact me off the list in this case, if you
like.
thanks
and
have a nice time
Petra
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:54:32 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Joan
Hi Theo.
For what its worth, Pat carries a very nice hammer dulcimer, HUGE, many
places. I call it the Baby Grand of Hammer Dulcimers. ;-) The case she had
built for it is made of plywood. The interior is lined with high quality,
high impact resistant, foam that is cut to deminsion to allow the
instrument, inside it's case, to sit down in the foam. More foam fits
snugly over the top of the case and is dimensioned to allow for handles and
so forth. Before placing the instrument in the shiping case, she puts 1/4
inch flat strips of foam under any movable parts. Most of us would probably
have to cut ourselves a foam insert to go inside our canvas cases and put
strips of foam inside the key box. Foam shops sell all sorts of foam and
it shouldn't be hard to find. I have even seen some very good stuff at Home
Depot. The top of the shiping container is not hinged. It is designed to
be attached to the sides with hex wood screws that are recessed into the
top and screw down into the sides about an inch. When the whole thing is
put together it is a VERY TIGHT, secure shipping container that can take
drops, conveyor belts and so forth. One change I would make is to put
metal inserts into the sides and substitute hex bolts for the hex screws
that attach the top to the body. The hex screws will chew up the wood with
time if the musician is repeatedly removing and putting it on. It has held
up in rain, snow and heat while sitting uncovered on the runway. The foam
makes it resistent to dammage and insulates against heat and cold. Of course
it is not as touchy as an HG. The corners are not reinforced. Personally, I
think those corner tabs just make for one more thing to catch on the
conveyor belt. Interestingly, she always picks it up in oversized baggage
so it never comes down the conveyor belt. So far there have been no
problems. There's a recessed handle for manuvering it onto a truck or in
her case, onto the skate board she uses to haul it around. The plywood is
heavy and you need something to haul it around. Her Hammer Dulcimer weighs
45 lbs in its shipping container. I see no reason why such a case could
not be made for an HG. Making the shiping crate out of plywood is cost
effectve. It is strong. Hers has been shellaced (sp) to resist water. As
the lid fit flat to the top, no hinges, and attached with recessed bolts or
screws it is secure against intruders or the curious. True, it doesn't
lock, but it has screws every few inches and it would be very hard for
someone to undo it without drawing a lot of attention. She carries an
electric screwdriver in her luggage to take the screws out. :-) Last year
she almost had a nervous breakdown when she thought she had left the
electric screwdriver at home. :-) The case is also wonderful insulation
and protection in the rental car. We pile luggage on top of it and are not
particularly careful with it. It seems to maintain a constant temperature
in even hottest and coldest places. She has shipped it all over the country
as a piece of baggage and though she worries like an Irish Grandmother
everytime it goes into the hold of the plane there has never been any
damage. She had her case made by a guy here in Seattle. His name is Rick
Fogel and he makes Hammer Dulcimers, but it is after all, just a very
sturdy, well foamed box . It shouldn't be hard for a competent cabinet
maker to turn out.
BTW, we have not talked to the airlines since 911 and don't know what the
proceedure is now. It would be wise to find out if they want to physically
inspect everything that goes into the hold. That wouldn't be hard to do
with such a case, but would probably take an extra half hour at the airport
if you have to take it to oversize baggage ahead of time.
Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:42:41 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan
Thanks Joan,
Those are good ideas. In our last move I had a special crate made for my
double bass (basically an over-sized wardrobe) and the fellow stuffed it
with high-density foam while I watched him wrap the bridge and wedge the
instrument in so there was no sway. I felt a little sick but it survived
the long truck ride beautifully, along with our other furniture. I suppose
I could arrange for similar care to be taken with the hurdy-gurdy whether I
send it or fly with it.
Alison.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:29:17 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] what are the prizes for HG- lessons
Hello Petra,
you can find my personal price list on this site:
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/Unterricht.htm#Der regelmässige
unterricht
you know about my qualifications.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:56:37 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Flemish music,
Hi Henry,
thanks for the recommendations. Eufoda have recently released an excellent
CD by Paul Rans and Claude Flagel which features in equal measure Flemish
and French song (often using the same tune).
Regards
nicholas
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:04:26 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fwd: Amplification (from Theo Bick)
Hello Theo et al!
I just found you old message in the dusty corners of my computer and I thought
I'd finally answer it!
I too have an Alto from WW which I love dearly. The outputs of the preamp are
line level which means that they will fairly easlily oveload the inputs of a
guitar amp or guitar pedal-type effect box. Of course, this might be just the
sound that you're looking for, but chances are that you'd like a cleaner sound
too. Line level means that the outputs are best plugged into a 'line in'
input on a mixer or into a D.I. box and thence to a mixing board/amplifier.
Do note, though that the outputs from the break-out-box are also balanced on
TRS 1/4" jacks. This means that you can plug a TRS to TRS cable directly into
a balanced line in or use a regular TS cable which shorts out the 'cold'
signal to the ground and provides a normal, unbalanced line level. For
example, if you needed to plug into the 'RCA' jacks of a stereo or input of a
small mixer, you could just use a 1/4" to RCA cable - no problem. If you
wanted to plug into the line in's of a newer Mackie mixer, you could use 1/4"
TRS cables and take advantage of a balanced signal (less hum and rf
interference and longer cable runs). Or you COULD use TRS to XLR cables to go
to an XLR line in on a bigger mixer so equipped or even to a mic input if you
like the sound of the mic pre on you sound...but NO phantom power!!!! As far
as I can tell the electronics of the system are NOT buffered to handle 48v
coming in. I don't think that you'd damage anything, but I for one don't want
to find out! Sorry for all of the techie talk. I'd be happy to
clarify/translate if anyone wants...
As to what you do with it then is very much up to you and your
experimentation.
>
> >
> >How do you get more volume without changing the quality of the sound? Can
> >I just plug straight into a PA system?
> >
This might be the trickiest part as sound flows differently through wood and
air as it does through wood, pickups, wires, eq's, amps and speakers! I think
that Weichselbaumer's instruments have the capability of the most 'natural'
plugged-in sound that I've heard through a combination of good electronics and
pre-amps and a gorgeous, full sounding instrument to begin with. But what
happens to the sound after it leaves your wires is exremely variable. In
addition to the things I mention above (some of which you may not have control
of, depending on the situation), each venue has it's own accoustic too, so
even if you're touring with your own amps and speakers (and sound-people, of
course!) each space you play in will sound different. So some kind of eq
(equalization) is important to be able to compensate for these things. WW's
new electronic system has an accesable eq section (I think) and many also
chose to have a small mixer (like the Mackie 1202 or similar) by their side
for such adjustments. But I think that you'll get the most 'natural' and
controlable sound by plugging directly into a mixer/pa system. For an amp for
youself, you might do better with a 50-100 watt keyboard amp. I've rented the
Canadian made Yorkville ones for certain situations to good effect, but the
Peavey, Roland etc. ones are basically the same.
>
> >What effects equipment have folks used for moderate altering of the sound?
> >I think I would like a little reverb and perhaps just a bit of distortion.
> >
Again, I get the best results from line-level devices such as are made to go
in a mixer's aux send path. There's no limit to what you can get or do with
these things and they get cheaper by the day. You might start with some kind
of muli-effect box. I have an old DigiTech 'Studio Quad' which sounds OK, but
more importantly is easy to program (and I don't have much patience with these
things). It also has 4 ins and 4 outs and can be used to put differnt effects
on each of the four channels....rhythmic delay on the melody, octave divider
on the drone, flanger on the sympathetics, and...um...er...auto wah on the
trompette???? Well, something like that. I find that the more time I spend
with my HG, the less modification of the sound I want to do with electronics
and the more I want to do with my technique! But reverb can be nice and I
like to use long looping delays for builing up harmonies and slowly evolving,
complex 'drone-scapes' (sounds so pretentious, but I can't think of another
term at the moment!). I've also been writing looping patches in a program
called Reaktor and playing the HG through my powerbook. I like to think of it
as old-school laptop meets new-school laptop...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:07:16 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
The list has been kind of quiet these days, so here's a joke every hurdy
gurdy player should bear in mind:
What does a hurdy gurdy and a hurdy gurdy player have in common?
The head is purely for decoration.
Juan (thanks Giles)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:42:25 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] HG Joke
Thanks, Juan
I really needed a good joke!!
Diana
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:11:45 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: [HG] RE:
Hi Juan and Sharon too.
Thanks for the cute joke. Missing you guys. Have you heard from Ila and Cliff?
I wanted to write Ila. Do take care and see you in Sept. if not sooner.
Joan D'Andrea
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:38:51 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG Joke
Hmm...
Well, but how about us who play a hg without that decorative sculpture
(like hungarian tekerolant)?
There are at least two possibilities:
- our heads are for something else than only "just for decoration"
- our heads are even less: no head in hg - no head at all...
But at least my (own) head is not very decorative.
Esa Mäkinen
..........................................................
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi
website of our band:
www.ihtiriekko.net
(updates coming soon)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:26:23 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] zanfonas and liras
Hello friends-
I just wanted to put out feelers around the HG community to see what kind of
interest there would be for a Galician zanfona and Ukrainian lira source
here in the USA. anyone out there interested in knowing more about these two
gurdies, maybe getting one in the future? email me with any questions!
best regards to all,
Wolodymyr Smishkewych
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:26:47 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Fw: Hurdy Grudy mentioned in a novel
A friend tells me she is reading a book by Jane Hamilton,
Disobedience which has a brief reference to the hurdy gurdy. She
was impressed because she knows (now) what it is.
Diana -Seattle
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:56:02 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras
hello again friends--
someone on the list brought up a good point--to forward links for folks to
see pictures at...i have not yet started building, but here is a link with
some great photos of instruments made by Jesus Reolid, a spanish luthier
that has made some fine instruments.
the main difference between galician zanfonas and other gurdies is that the
intrument is exclusively built and played in what vielle-oriented gurdyists
know as 'en musette', or without the mouche or trompette. the sound of the
chanterelles is enhanced and made richer by adding a third chanterelle tuned
an octave below the two unisons; the open tuning for the two standard
galician zanfonas would be:
DO:
1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles): g
3rd cantante: G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
1st bordon (bourdon): C
2nd bordon: G' (1 octave below c. 3)
SOL
as above:
c. 1 & 2: D
3rd c.: D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
bordon 1: G'
b 2: D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3
the ukrainian liras are very similar to hungarian tekero"lants and russian
liras, ranging the variants in between.
here are pictures to jesus' page:
http://personal5.iddeo.es/ret007ei/reolid/i-zanfona.html
(click on "pagina principal" at the bottom to reach his main page)
hope to hear from folks!
best,
Wolodymyr ("Vlad") Smishkewych
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:21:19 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras
HiVlad and Everyone else as well.
I have been to the Jesus Reolid site before. He has some very nice pictures
and anyone interested in pictures of him making instruments should just keep
forwarding through the pictures. Once you get beyong the restored guitars
you will find a nice picture of Jesus playing his HG anbd beyond it is a
very good collection of pictures of him constructing.
Joan D'
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:07:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG]
Hey, Joan D'
How's that Bosch coming along?
Roy T.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:58:28 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras
Hello,
Is it correct to suppose that you mean the following pitches?
Especially the pitches for the 'SOL' tuning seem to be quite low,
possible but a bit unlikely for a traditional instrument. I am very much
interested in the string material used traditionaly if these pitches are
right:
"Smishkewych, Wolodymyr":
> (...) the open tuning for the two standard
> galician zanfonas would be:
>
> DO:
>
> 1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles): g
= g' the 'normal' HG g' (392 Hz) the one above middle c (c')
> 3rd cantante: G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
= g the violin/viola g (196 Hz) right below the middle c
> 1st bordon (bourdon): C
= c the viola c (131 Hz) one octave below middle c
> 2nd bordon: G' (1 octave below c. 3)
= G the cello G (98 Hz)
>
> SOL
>
> as above:
> c. 1 & 2: D
= d' (294 Hz) the lower D-HG melody and d' of the violin/viola (!?) the
note above middle c
> 3rd c.: D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
=d the d of the cello (147 Hz) the note above the viola c (!?)
> bordon 1: G'
= the G of the cello (98 Hz)
> b 2: D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3
= the C of the cello (65,5 Hz) (!?)
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:53:32 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fwd: Amplification (from Theo Bick)
Hello Ben,
Wow! Thanks for the very informative reply. I will have to experiment around
and will probably have more questions later. I will start by trying a
keyboard amp.
Regards,
Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:37:24 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Mike Gilpin
Hi list - I've come across an enigmatic reference to an 18th century =
maker, Charette, who made alto gurdies. Does anybody know anything about =
him or his instruments? How do they differ from modern alto gurdies - ie =
scale length, tuning, keyboard layout etc. Any ideas?
Another obscure reference in a book on world music suggests that there =
maybe hurdy gurdies lurking in a far corner of Madagascar, left over =
from the 19th century when the island was a French protectorate. I've =
never come across this before, and I don't think the Malagasy music has =
incorporated gurdies into their music. Unless of course you know =
different!
Mike Gilpin
www.hurdygurdy.biz
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:57:42 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] _at_ #$%cotton!
Dear list,
I've been practising slowly for the past few weeks, and making a bit of
progress over all. It's definately a positive sign when I can find myself
caught up in the playing from time to time. Certainly the old drudgery of
childhood music lessons is no longer present!
Yesterday, I finally got up the courage to try putting cotton on my bourdon,
so it could be added into the mix. My some miracle, I managed to succeed!
The instument never sounded so good in my hands as it did that afternoon,
and, flushed with victory, I began to dweel on the fact that my chanterelle
were a bit thinly cottoned.
Well... Let's just say I wasn't quite so successful this time. Now the
instrument sounds absolutely vile! Not only is the melody raspy, way too
quiet, and prone to jumping octaves, but the bourdon gets these metallic
shrieks and all the rosin rubs off the wheel immediately. I know exactly
what's gone wrong: Basically, I was using too much cotton and it would not
wrap tightly enough around the strings, so I tried coating them with rosin
and probably ended up smudging the wheel. Then I tried all of this retuning
to correct things and ruined the two drones.
So these are my questions now: First, can I clean the wheel with a clean
cotton rag, or does it need special treatment? I'm sure the fact that it
looses traction quickly has something to do with oil interfering with my
rosin jobs.
Second, how does one get the _at_ #$% cotton to wrap tightly! I'm following the
advice given in D&H: twist string with fingers while turning the wheel
slowly and evenly, etc. Do I need liquid rosin to really get a good grip on
the strings? That's how it was done when I had it tuned originally.
Third, when does one change the cotton? Can you simply wait until it's
practically worn off of the string? I don't want to have to change the
trompette job until it's absolutely necessary. It works still now!
I suppose I can continue to practise my keyboard and trompette skills
despite the hideous tone, so this is not perhaps crucial. It would be better
for everyone though! I at least know that the instrument is capable of good
music, so as long as I can get to a another professional some day, there's
no cause for dispair.
Thank's for any advice. It really is too bad I tried this 'improvement'
right before spring break. I was planning to demonstrate my progress to the
family! C'est la vie... Sincerely,
Nathan Roy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:47:28 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: [HG] coup de ?
Hello Simon, Neil and others,
My first attempts were guided by the Muskett book. I must have
misinterpreted the diagrams on the coup de un, deux, quatre because I
started practicing the "one stroke" by a foreword push with the fleshy
part of the hand next to the thumb joint. Then when I got the coup de
quatre, I did the "two " with a mostly downward push with the middle of
the thumb, the "three" with a pull by the middle and index fingers and
the "Four" with an upward blow of the ring finger. Not having anyone to
compare with for about 13 years I always thought this was the best way
to do it and was satisfied with my trompette technique, getting
proficient at the coup de 2, 4, 4 irregular, 4 relache, and 6. Then when
I met up with some of the excellent players, it seemed as though my
whole technique was "off " by about 90 degrees. I am 90 degrees early
compared with Gilles, Matthias and from watching a video of him last
week, Stephan Durand. And Matthias told me that in his opinion it is
better to do the "one" with a downward push because the motion is more
efficient. He told me this after watching me play for about 15 seconds.
So last week I decided to change my technique by about 90 degrees. If you
go to http://www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk/ and click on Trompette Workshop you
can see the way I am trying to do it now. At first it was very difficult
to change but I vowed not to play another tune until I could at least do
the coup de 4 with the new method. It took about 10 hours over 3 days. I
noticed there was something a bit snappier and sharper about the buzzes 1
& 3. It really did have something that was lacking before. Playing tunes
this way was another matter. I keep falling back to my old habits in
anything but the most simple tunes.
My question is this. Are there any excellent players who play it "off by
90 degrees"? Has anyone else changed their technique like this and how
long did it take to be equally proficient at the new? (I did it the old
way for 19 years). Do you have any practice tips? I know that Valentin
Clastrier says that you should be able to start the coups equally well
from any position. Who can do this while playing tunes?
I hope this is going to be worth doing and not cause more problems than
it fixes. I am supposed to play twice next month and will probably have
to use the old way.
Thanks for reading all this,
Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:22:25 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] _at_ #$%cotton!
Hello,
Nathan Roy:
> (...)
> on the fact that my chanterelle were a bit thinly cottoned.
the cotton on the chanters *must* be 'thinly'. reasons to remove it are
that its is uneven or knobby or worn out so that the blank string
touches the wheel or that the cotton accumulated to much rosin or dirt.
>
> Well... Let's just say I wasn't quite so successful this time. Now the
> instrument sounds absolutely vile! Not only is the melody raspy, way too
> quiet, and prone to jumping octaves, but the bourdon gets these metallic
> shrieks and all the rosin rubs off the wheel immediately. I know exactly
> what's gone wrong: Basically, I was using too much cotton and it would not
> wrap tightly enough around the strings, so I tried coating them with rosin
> and probably ended up smudging the wheel. Then I tried all of this retuning
> to correct things and ruined the two drones.
>
> So these are my questions now: First, can I clean the wheel with a clean
> cotton rag, or does it need special treatment?
Yes, that is the usuall treatment: turn the wheel fast, and press the
cotton thight so that the rosin is warmed and melts of the wheel.
> I'm sure the fact that it
> looses traction quickly has something to do with oil interfering with my
> rosin jobs.
Maybe, but you can cause the problems described above simply by putting
cotton on and off. The cotton consumes the rosin, too much cotton
increases the pressure on the wheel, makes the tone instable too, also
lose cotton affects the traction between the wheel and the string.
>
> Second, how does one get the _at_ #$% cotton to wrap tightly! I'm following the
> advice given in D&H: twist string with fingers while turning the wheel
> slowly and evenly, etc.
Use lesser cotton. It is also a thing you have to train: just go on
putting cotton on the strings for the next two days (do not forget to
put on rosin too).
> Do I need liquid rosin to really get a good grip on
> the strings? That's how it was done when I had it tuned originally.
Rosin on the string is a help but not neccessary (metal surface strings
are a special case). One thing that is much more important is the
quality of the cotton. It must have no knobbs, have a good 'grip' so if
you touch it it should not feel slippery, must have equally thin about
two centimeters long fibres. If you twist it between your fingers it
should easily twine. I personally use the fibres from natural cotton
capsules (the one from the bush) I buy in the flowers shop.
> Third, when does one change the cotton? Can you simply wait until it's
> practically worn off of the string? I don't want to have to change the
> trompette job until it's absolutely necessary. It works still now!
never change a winning team. You change te cotton when it does not sound
well any more. The most important reason is because the intonation of
the chanters is declining.
> I suppose I can continue to practise my keyboard and trompette skills
> despite the hideous tone
So, since the target is making music, this seems not to be a positive
option to me.
See the work on the cotton, rosin and pressure of the string as part of
the musical learning process important to the hurdy gurdy player as the
bowing technique for the violinist.
> C'est la vie...
celery, as the vegetarians use to say ;-)
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:39 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hi Theo
I was at a workshop with Stephan Durand and while he normally uses the
coup system described on my site, he occasionally starts the bar using
the forward push - much in the way of the coup de 4 irregular on the
site. The effect is different to the normal and tends to be used for a
more syncopated style .
A useful exercise is to play a 6/8 piece using a coup de 4 system. This
puts the accent on each position progressively - eventually!
Neil
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:06:44 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello Theo,
Theo Bick:
>
> My question is this. Are there any excellent players
> who play it "off by 90 degrees"?
> Has anyone else changed their technique like this and
> how long did it take to be equally proficient at the new?
I have students who changed/are changing their technique. It needs quite
a while, but it is really neccessary.
> Do you have any practice tips?
Learn the c.3 .
like in
rhythm:
12 34 12 34 12 34
positions:
pos1(12) pos3(34) pos2(12) pos1(34) pos3(12) etc
since most people do not use the c.3 at all or at least nothing complex,
you can work on pos1 (down) here without having to redo old trained
reflexes. Having established pos.1 (down) in the c.3 helps with the c.4.
And c.3 helps to define the pos3 and pos4 of the c.4 more precise as
being in direct neighbourhood with c3 pos3 (one and two twelfth of the
circle) but not the same.
practise things like
rhythm:
'12 12 12 123'
positions:
|: c.3: pos1(12) pos3(12) pos2(12) pos1(123) :||: c.4: pos1(12) pos3(12)
pos1(12) pos3(123) pos2 pos4 pos2 pos4 pos3 pos1 pos3 pos1 pos4 pos2
pos4 pos2 :|
(play c.3 and c.4 parts in one, with a steady rhytm and changing wheel
speed)
> I know that Valentin Clastrier says that you should be
> able to start the coups equally well from any position.
this is a regular excuse of learning players not to undergo the hard
work of a precise c.4 ;-)
> Who can do this while playing tunes?
I think most expirienced players.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:31:36 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello Simon and all HG friends,
While we're on the subject of coups, here's a question for you all:
I have been using the method of thinking of the subdivisions of the wheel as
divisions of a circle with the one more-or-less at the top of the wheel: similar
to the method in Dubois (and, I'm sure, others). I recently got a copy of the
Loibner/Delfino method which illustrates a square-in-the-circle method (for c.4)
with one as the first down side of the square. This is very similar in some
ways to the 'circle' method of visualizing the action, but allows for more
subtle variations of the figure for stacatto, legato and dynamics. And I DO
find it all a bit of a visualization/mind game since aiming to hit different
part of my palm as I turn seems to coarse a motion. Of course, this is what
actually happens when you do it, but I find it easier to imagine the triangle,
square or whatever. My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method or
the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method. The 'hexagon' version also puts one on
the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock. This seems to fight
with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for c.3
and c.4. When I work on c.6, sometimes one method seems to help me, sometimes
the other. Has anyone else wrestled with these knotty problems?
And, following Catherine Keenan's advice, I'm practicing all of the coups VERY
slowly to a metronome which has cleaned up my c.3 and c.4 and given me hope for
c.6 and c.8, but I can't yet play c.6 at a usefull tempo, though I can now play
the 2nd half of it as a triplet in c.4 or c.3. My question is: is this method
of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo? I somehow suspect that I'm
training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats. Maybe if I could understand the
German text of this great book???
Left hand/right hand independence is another matter....and to think that also
play percussion?!?!?!?
All the best,
ben
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:39:59 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] coup de ?
Hi Theo, and everybody.
19 years is a lot of un-learning!!!
I did it that way for a year or 2 until I learned the error of my ways at a
workshop with Nigel Eaton. I don't recall re-learning was too much of a
problem, but I do recall coming to the conclusion my playing was terrible
anyway! The major factor in getting it more-or-less right sometime later
was a single 2 hour private lesson with Cliff Stapleton, which I suppose
shown that there's nothing better than a good teacher.
How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms? I know the
'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the others at approx 60
degree intervals, but doing it that way I find myself drifting into a coup
de quatre. On the other hand, following Nigel's advice I tried doing it the
other way up in a sort of upside down irregular coup de trois, and found a
useful 'galloping' type jig rhythm much easier. This is how I usually play
for dances, but I've not seen many other people doing it this way.
Best regards to you all
Peter
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:42:30 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras
Thanks, Simon for the note!
the c. 1, 2 and 3 refer to 'cantantes/chanterelles' 1, 2, 3; this may have
been confusing. the 1st & 2nd melody strings of the G zanfona are same 8ve
as the french, the 3rd melody 1 octave below, 1st drone the G a 4th above
this and 2nd drone unison with 3rd melody. sorry-i got the 8ves screwed up!
thanks again-and cheers!
Vlad
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Wascher [mailto:Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras
Hello,
Is it correct to suppose that you mean the following pitches?
Especially the pitches for the 'SOL' tuning seem to be quite low,
possible but a bit unlikely for a traditional instrument. I am very much
interested in the string material used traditionaly if these pitches are
right:
"Smishkewych, Wolodymyr":
> (...) the open tuning for the two standard
> galician zanfonas would be:
>
> DO:
>
> 1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles): g
= g' the 'normal' HG g' (392 Hz) the one above middle c (c')
> 3rd cantante: G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
= g the violin/viola g (196 Hz) right below the middle c
> 1st bordon (bourdon): C
= c the viola c (131 Hz) one octave below middle c
> 2nd bordon: G' (1 octave below c. 3)
= G the cello G (98 Hz)
>
> SOL
>
> as above:
> c. 1 & 2: D
= d' (294 Hz) the lower D-HG melody and d' of the violin/viola (!?) the
note above middle c
> 3rd c.: D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
=d the d of the cello (147 Hz) the note above the viola c (!?)
> bordon 1: G'
= the G of the cello (98 Hz)
> b 2: D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3
= the C of the cello (65,5 Hz) (!?)
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:43:27 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Es schrieb peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com:
>
> Hi Theo, and everybody.
> (...)
> How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms? I know the
> 'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the others at approx 60
> degree intervals, but doing it that way I find myself drifting into a coup
> de quatre.
I use and teach two methods for 6/8: 2 x coup de trois (c.3 ; with a
120° angle) or 1&1/2 coup de quatre (c.4 ; 90° angle). The exercise I
described before uses both.
positions in c3:
pos1 down at apr. 1 o'clock pos2 at apr. 5 o'clock and pos3 at 9
o'clock (pos4 c4 is at 10 o'clock compared)
The point is to learn to separate pos4 of c4 and pos3 of c3. They are
quite close together separated by just 1/12 of the circle. to avoid
drifting from one into the other both must be mastered and the
difference must be felt and automatized.
a typical exercise for 6/8 rhythm is:
(123 456 ; at steady tempo, changing wheel speed between c3 and c4, the
use of a metronome is recomended)
[c3] pos1(1) pos2(2) pos3(3) pos1(4) pos2(5) pos3(6) :||:[c4] pos1(123)
pos4(456) pos3(123) pos2(456) ||
in this version the single coups in the c4 are suppressed just the beats
1 and 4 are sounding, later on all positions should be played but with
less emphasis than beats 1 and 4.
a very good exercise is to play 5/8 7/8 9/8 11/8 rhythms in both c3 and
c4. But starting with 2/4 3/4 and 6/8 is enough scrouge for a start :o).
Best regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:23:58 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] coup de ?
I wrote, and then wished I hadn't:
> How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms? I know the
> 'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the
> others at approx 60 degree intervals,
<snip>
What I really meant was 120 degree intervals. Sorry about that.
Peter
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:43:21 -0800
From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] _at_ #$%cotton!
Nathan, here is a document I wrote on cottoning. Maybe it will help
you. Alden and Cali also added to it, so. . .
Cottoning Instructions
Cotton is very import to the hurdy-gurdy player. Without it, your
instrument will sound very harsh and there could be damage to the wheel
from the strings and damage to the strings from the wheel. There are
many techniques for cottoning a string. It can be a frightening
experience the first few times you change your cotton. We tell you not
to touch the wheel and now we want you to work so close to the wheel that
touching it seems inevitable. It is a wise idea to wash your hands
before playing or changing strings or cotton. Of course, don't put
on hand lotion after washing your hands.
1. Remove the cotton from the string by putting the string on the
lift to keep it off the wheel and then pick off the cotton gently. Be
careful not to touch your wheel. If your cotton has turned to stone and
won't come off, some players carry pliers for turning tangents. If
you use pliers, be sure to be extra careful so you don't damage
either your string or wheel.
2. Take your rosin and rub it on the string over where you are going
to place the cotton. This works only for solid, not powdered rosin.
Doing this makes the string slightly sticky and helps the cotton to
adhere to the string. Alden likes to twist the string around between his
fingers when he does this, so that the rosin ends up on all sides of the
string.
3. Take a small wad of cotton or silk. Use only a wisp of cotton.
Remember: less is more, when it comes to cotton. You don't want too
much. I find the amount is slightly larger for the heavier strings.
Learning the amount will require some practice and patience. Each
instrument has it's limits and you will need to learn your's. Pull the
cotton fibers so that they are going in the same direction, culling any
impurities or lumps out as you go.
4. Once the cotton is prepared hold it with your first finger and
thumb of your left hand, the cotton hanging down. Bring it to the string
and form a loop with the cotton with the string inside the loop just to
the left of the wheel. Hold the top of the loop with your left hand and
run it down the string until it is above the wheel.
5. With your right hand lower the string until it is touching the
wheel, the cotton between the wheel and the string.
6. This is the tricky part. Very gently and slowly turn the wheel
clockwise and let go of the looped cotton. You want to let go just a
split second after you start turning. With your thumb just in front of
the string (not touching the wheel), guide the cotton as it starts to
wrap itself on the string.
7. You may need to add rosin once you have changed your cotton. I
put my rosin on between my chanter and bass strings so that the less
sensitive base string gets the bulk of it, since the other strings need
so much less.
Alden from Olympic Musical Instruments adds:
We've been using fox fiber cotton, which is a naturally short-fiber
cotton. I find it's easier to work with than the longer-fiber cotton
some people like. For one thing, it is easier to get the amount you
want, and it's easier to handle. With a really long-fiber cotton, you
need fewer fibers, and it's harder to estimate and harder to wind. The
stuff we get seems to have fewer little pieces of junk and tangles too,
which I like. It comes in various colors, from very light tan to a
medium brown. "Breeder's Brown" is my favorite, but the color doesn't
matter at all.
I've used silk, and I don't really like it. The fibers are really long,
and once it's wound on it really wants to stay there! Some people have
reported having better results with it than with cotton in really dusty
situations, and one person says that one instrument really prefers silk
and the other really prefers cotton. Go figure.
A fiber I've liked better than 100% silk is a silk-cotton blend, 25/75.
The silk fibers are cut shorter, so it goes on easier, and I still get
some of the endurance of silk without the other hassles.
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:59:53 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello all-
I'm going to play "devil's advocate," and add a couple of cents here:
I know of a hurdy-gurdy player who learned to buzz in an informational
vacuum. The technique he developed is most unusual, and unique as far as
I know. Believe it or not, he can play all sorts of rhythmic patterns
and tempos without ever changing the speed at which he turns the wheel.
He can produce short and long buzzes, from one up to what must be at
least 8 buzzes per turn (c.8, I guess is the acceptable shorthand),
sounding the buzz wherever in the rotation he wants. The position of
rotation of the crank has no bearing on the tempo or meter or stress of
the rhythms he produces.
One time I overheard him being told, by another player who was teaching
at the time, that he was doing it wrong and that he should stop doing it
his way and learn the "correct way." I just don't buy it. Theo, does
the way you do it "now" work for you? Personally, I think that there has
to be a better reason than "this is the way everyone else does it" for
you to change your technique. You implied in your message that you were
happy with your playing ("...satisfied with my trompette technique,
getting proficient at the coup de 2, 4, 4 irregular, 4 relache, and 6"),
and so why do you feel the need to change now after more than a decade?
By all means, work on changing your playing technique if you feel limited
by your present methods and the new way improves things for you - you
also said that after working hard at changing, you "noticed there was
something a bit snappier and sharper about the buzzes 1 & 3. It really
did have something that was lacking before." Just don't feel obligated
to change just because nobody else does it your way. What I'm saying
(and I'm sure I don't have to tell you this) is: take all of the advice
and apply what works for you. I'm sure Bill Staines has been through
this same thought process, and yet he manages just fine. For those who
don't know of Bill, he plays guitar left handed, but on a "right-handed"
guitar simply turned upside down, so that the highest string is at the
top of the fingerboard instead of the bottom. For most guitarists, it's
very strange to watch him play and try to figure out what chord patterns
he is playing.
One strong argument for changing that I can see has a timely example:
Maxou's upcoming workshop. If you want to learn about rhythms from other
players, you probably want to be in the same time zone technique-wise.
My above-mentioned friend doesn't get much out of "ordinary" rhythm
workshops.
Looking forward to seeing some of you in a couple of weeks!
~ Matt
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:38:32 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
> My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
> work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method
or
> the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method. The 'hexagon' version also puts one
on
> the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock. This seems to
fight
> with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for
c.3
> and c.4. When I work on c.6, sometimes one method seems to help me,
sometimes
> the other. Has anyone else wrestled with these knotty problems?
Ben,
I learned the c.6 method on my own, perhaps incorrectly. I never thought of
which parts of my hand the knob contacts. I start the c.6 around 11 o'clock
or maybe 10:30. I have noticed now that it starts with a push (from the
same position that I have been incorrectly starting the c.4 until now) I
think it is important to begin the c.4 and c.6 from the same spot so I guess
I will have to change my c.6 also even though it sounds nice and even with
the wrong starting point.
>My question is: is this method
>of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo? I somehow suspect that
I'm
>training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
>would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats. Maybe if I could understand
the
>German text of this great book???
Sorry I can' help with this question nor can I read German. I suppose I'll
have to go for a private lesson. Good luck,
Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:50:10 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hi,
I've got to agree with Matt on this one. Theo, if your method is working
well for you it can't be "wrong". On the other hand, when I was learning
to play Cajun accordian my instructor said that the best reason to try a
different technique was because you didn't already know how to do
it. Sounds a bit trite maybe, you might want to learn to do the coup in
the standard way, but not abandon your current method. It may give you
some added flexibility. I play several instruments and I have rarely found
that there is only one right way to do anything.
Many years ago I was profoundly impressed by a boy of 12 who had a room
full of professional musicians astounded. He had taken a sound that his
instrument made that everyone else was trying to eliminate from their
playing and had incorporated the sound into a kind of rhythmic emphasis
that gave him a unique style. It left the rest of us shaking our heads in
amazement and saying "now why didn't I think of that?"
Where would we be if Valentin and Gilles had believed that the coup de 8
wasn't possible? Let's all push the envelope and see what happens.
:-)-------Cali
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:11:29 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hi List
Just a question:
why the "correct" c4 is better than Theo's "old" c4 ?
I think that one of the goals of a HG player is the
"making of a "nice buzz"...and Theo does it (very
well, I'd say...)
I actually use 3 different kind of c4 patterns (the
less used is the "correct one") and the "direction" of
my right hand may change (in the same point of the
circle) according to "music".
Of course I'm not an
"excellent player" , I just play some baroque music
and I started with Bouin and Dupuits baroque methods
(both of them had "strange" ideas about
trompette.....)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:15:24 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello,
marcello bono:
> (...)
> why the "correct" c4 is better than Theo's "old" c4 ?
> I think that one of the goals of a HG player is the
> "making of a "nice buzz"...and Theo does it (very
> well, I'd say...)
> (...)
I too know a player 'who learned to buzz in an informational vacuum' and
whose technique and abilities are and where not just astonishing but
stunning, at least some french players mentioned before were quite
impressed when they saw it ;-) . Its the same person who gave Theo the
advice to change his technique to be more efficient: Matthias Loibner.
Yes, its a good way to see it as another technique one adds to the
personal repertoire, but for players who do what most players do,
playing traditional french dance tunes it is the logical technique. And
coming back to Matthias, it is the 'more efficient' one. It is certainly
not really important if the eighteenth century composers repertoire is
your target. It is just a small step on the way to the universe of c4+
and there are techniques which give more control but there is nothing
that can compete with this technique if it is to play bouree a deux
temps (correct me maxou).
It is a fault of more than one method that they discribe the pos1 wrong
or at least mistakable in place and direction. and this is what it is:
wrong.
I will discribe why it is wrong: In all this tutors the general target
is to teach c.4 with 'open' hand: the knob not fixed by the hands grip
but rolling arround freely. So there is no permanent control of the knob
aimed for. This causes that all the points the knob describes arround
the circle are not equal. Four indipendent movements are defined which
do interfere with each other as less as possible. Four contact points on
the inside of the hand correspond whit these (and four directions of
movement are defined: 'down' 'pull' 'up' 'push'). And there is one point
that is privileged: the point where the hand accelerated by gravitation
triggers a buzz by simpy falling down. Without any active movement of
the arm or hand, just let go. A kind of 'natural' buzz. It is found by
positioning the knob at 12 o'clock and letting the hand rest, not to say
hang on the knob. In this position nothing happens the axle blocks any
vertical vector of the movement. Slowly moving the hand with the knob in
turning direction there is a point where the balance point of the hand
is no longer blocked by the axle and the hand falls down (naturally in a
bow, since it is attached to the knob). This is a special point on the
whole circle, and the one that is pos1 not out of esoteric feelings for
special points but because it is the point of minimum energy input for
getting a buzz.
As I said before this is not important with all trompette techniques and
it is clear that one can make (even more ?) beautyfull music with other
techniques but pos1 *is* crucial for the 'open' technique which is the
aim of all these methods. As it is not important for other techniques as
the 'closed' one with equal control of the buzz at any point there are
good reasons to accept pos1 of the 'open' technique as general pos1. At
least if it comes to mixing techniques this helps a lot.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:55:02 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello,
ben grossman:
> While we're on the subject of coups, here's a question for you all:
>
> I have been using the method of thinking of the subdivisions of the wheel as
> divisions of a circle with the one more-or-less at the top of the wheel: similar
> to the method in Dubois (and, I'm sure, others). I recently got a copy of the
> Loibner/Delfino method which illustrates a square-in-the-circle method (for c.4)
> with one as the first down side of the square. This is very similar in some
> ways to the 'circle' method of visualizing the action, but allows for more
> subtle variations of the figure for stacatto, legato and dynamics. And I DO
> find it all a bit of a visualization/mind game since aiming to hit different
> part of my palm as I turn seems to coarse a motion. Of course, this is what
> actually happens when you do it, but I find it easier to imagine the triangle,
> square or whatever. My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
> work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method or
> the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method. The 'hexagon' version also puts one on
> the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock. This seems to fight
> with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for c.3
> and c.4.
I imagine the c.3 c.4 and c.6 all starting at the same position about
half past one ;-).
this makes that the 'front side' of the 'square' in c.4 is vertical and
the direction of the movement is 'down'. In c.3 the first side of the
imaginary triangle is hanging over a bit and the first side of the c.6
'hexagon' is very steep but not vertical .
This corresponds with the intesity of the buzz as my imagination is as
following: if the hand wants to 'cut of' the distance of the radius by
following a straight line 'through' the circle the hand is accelerated
because it is forced to follow the longer distance arround the circle.
In the oposit it is possible to imaginate a slowdown - a no buzz - as
movement outside the circle.
I would describe the difference between imagination of a radial
movenment and of a polygonal movement as the heart of the two techniques
'closed' and 'open' in the one case a radial acceleration is intended
that is quite indipendent from positions in the other acceleration is
reached as described above.
> And, following Catherine Keenan's advice, I'm practicing all of the coups VERY
> slowly to a metronome which has cleaned up my c.3 and c.4 and given me hope for
> c.6 and c.8, but I can't yet play c.6 at a usefull tempo, though I can now play
> the 2nd half of it as a triplet in c.4 or c.3. My question is: is this method
> of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo? I somehow suspect that I'm
> training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
> would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats.
My impression is that the location of the movement in the arm moves from
the hand upwards over the years and the c.6 gets more automatized and
faster with this. So I think that automatuizing the positions and
directions comes first, followed by training the muscles in question.
I must confess that I do not play music where I much need a very fast
c.6 (exept as triplets). Usually I use the c.6 in a medium fast tempo
for changing the sound of the instrument = turning the wheel slower.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:39:41 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
>
>
> I would describe the difference between imagination of a radial
> movenment and of a polygonal movement as the heart of the two techniques
> 'closed' and 'open' in the one case a radial acceleration is intended
> that is quite indipendent from positions in the other acceleration is
> reached as described above.
>
Dear Simon,
If I wanted to use both techniques, would that make me a 'radial polyganist'? How
would my wife feel about this???;>}
All the best,
ben
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:03:29 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?
OH OH. Watch out guys. Remember the last flap when we got started on a line like
this? :-) I have already thought of a half dozen replies to that question that I
probably shouldn't post. They are all very funny plays on words that end ist and
begin with the names of various instruments that have double meanings. Nuff said,
use your imaginations. Tee hee.
Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:11:45 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Remember the old song Rock Aroung the Clock? I think we should name this
meathod Knock Around the Clock. :-) Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:18:12 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Joan said,
>I have already thought of a half dozen replies to that question that I
>probably shouldn't post.
So post 'em ;-)
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:47:37 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Joan
Joan said:
Hi Ben. Is there any chance you could diagram this for us? I think
paintshop allows for making your own drawings and then adding text. It sure
would be useful for de beginners. :-) hint hint
Joan
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:04:30 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
The nearest I've got to mentally analysing the c6 is to use the first and
third positions of the c4 as the 1st and 4th coups of the c6. all that is
needed is to fit two radial accelerations between them.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:35:28 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan
Hello Joan,
I presume that a diagram of 'radial polygony'would be out of the question....
Two things prevent me from providing simple graphics to illustrate these coup
ideas. One is that there is a ban on attachments on this list and I'm afraid
that I'm not net savy enough to put them up on my sad little website. The
second is that I'm the least qualified amongst us to offer advice on coup
technique - I'm just floundering around myself.....Perhaps Simon or Macello or
Maxou or.......
All the best,
ben
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:40:48 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello,
Neil Brook:
> The nearest I've got to mentally analysing the c6 is to use the first and
> third positions of the c4 as the 1st and 4th coups of the c6. all that is
> needed is to fit two radial accelerations between them.
aditionally the pos1, 3 and 5 of the c6 equal the positions of the c3.
The pos2, 4 and 6 of the c6 form a upside down triangle which
rhythmically corresponds with the offbeats of a threetime in c6 :
[c.6] pos1(1)pos2(&)pos3(2)pos4(&)pos5(3)pos6(&)
So, besides '123 123' with c4 pos3 as orientation as Neil mentioned,
there is '12 34 56' with c3 as orientation and good old '_2_4_6' offbeat
with the upside down triangle and pos3 of c4 as anchor.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:08:12 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: diagrams on web (was:[HG] From Joan)
I have webspace and can put things up in it, if anyone would like. Please
email me first (offlist) for requested procedures before sending any
attachments.
Beverly
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:40:55 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?
Hello Everyone,
Many thanks to all the excellent players who took the trouble to answer my
questions. This has been a very informative topic for me and I have started
to explore the suggestions.
Actually, I am pretty energized by the whole idea and the chance to learn
something new. It has helped me already.
Now I have to pack for Maui.
Aloha,
Theo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:57:21 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan
Hi Joan,
Drawings, text ,photos and animations are available on my site under
trompette workshop.
Neil
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:10:05 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
Alden is currently restoring a French guitar shaped HG for me.
He has found the following written directly on the wood of the inside of the
keybox side hidden by the keys
"Vielle de Campagne qui a été faite le 9 janvier 1818 par germain
deni(s-)josèph de Cormoz département de l'Ain"
He signed below "Germain (his mark)"
Cormoz seems to be 50km North North East of Lyon in Ain departement or
perhaps now Rhône-Alpes
There may be another Cormoz 20km nearer Lyon
The inscription is well written in an "educated hand"
I guess it may be a "one-off" instrument.
Any thoughts / information from you guys out there would be most welcome
Graham Whyte
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:36:56 +0000
From: Jim Yeeles <jim.yeeles _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] I'm up and running
Hello,
Last weekend I picked up my new HG from UK maker Mike Gilpin and am
extremely pleased with the results. It's a little flatback in
maple, walnut and sitka spruce (I think). For the curious, Mike should
have a picture of it at <http://www.hurdygurdy.biz/> some time in the
future.
For the UK listers:
Does anyone know of any upcoming events suitable for absolute beginners
on ‘D' instruments? Unfortunately, I wasn't able to
attend the Norwich workshop at the start of the year and that looked like
it would have been ideal. Also, I gather there may be something in the
offing in the Cambridge area on the last weekend in August which I also
can't make. So if anyone is aware of anything else please let me
know.
I plan to pop back up to Mike for the occasional lesson so I don't
pick up too many bad habits but it's a bit of a trek (by UK
standards). I'd also like to try and get some tuition a bit nearer
home. I live in North-West Kent but getting to London would not be a
problem. Any recommendations?
For anyone:
I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used.
Can someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?
Thanks
Jim
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:44:43 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm up and running
Es schrieb Jim Yeeles:
>I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used. Can
>someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?
I am not a Bourbonnais expert but this is my guess:
A drone setting with a D below the G (like d-g or D-d-g) is not mixing
very nicely since the harmonics of these D's are D-d-a so there would be
a hearable second sounding in the drone. So only the combination mouche
+ trompette would make sense.
Additionally, having two notes in the drone fixes the root of the
tonality which is not fitting to many Bourbonnais melodies I know.
And, without predicting what causes what (the instrument te melody or
reverse), many Bourbonais melodies have a range from the root note
upwards.
In other traditions a setting with D melody and G drone would be more
usefull or is typical anyway since their typical range of a melody is
down to the fifth or includes the (major) seventh.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:49:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, graham wrote:
> Alden is currently restoring a French guitar shaped HG for me.
Cali also ;-) ;-)
> He has found the following written directly on the wood of the inside of the
> keybox side hidden by the keys
Has anyone ever seen an inscription like this inside the keybox? It was a
first for us.
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:56:06 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
Bonjour,
The expression " ...de campagne " translates by " country-style "
as in " pâté de campagne " , so my guess is that the label means
" home made " by Germain Denis Joseph wich would indicate
an amateur building a single instrument for his own use ?
Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
one is a local common family name ?
Henry
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: 20 March 2002 07:06:19 +0100
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
Hi !
Denis Joseph Germain (1792-1865) is (a bit) known in France. In "La
vielle en Bresse" (book by the Bourg en Bresse museum), there's
some words about him. Only 5 HG were known when the book was
published (circa 1980). I think yours is may one of the first he
made. I'll send you later the whole text and pictures (in french).
Now I'm going to teach maths to pupils...
Maxou
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:08:23 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm up and running
Congratulations Jim! - Yes, it's a lovely instrument...I've been watching it
take shape in Mike's workshop over the month. Hopefully the pic will be up
on the site very soon....let us know when the photos are ready, Mike.
Sorry you won't be able to make the workshop up here.
Update on this is that the date has been changed to Sat 31st Aug/Sun 1st
Sept. The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony Daly; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK. Cost
of the weekend is expected to be around £25, with workshops running all day
both days, and the chance of a session on the Sat evening. (Very) limited
camping space available in our garden which is 5 mins walk from the hall.
Excellent pub opposite, or various take-away food available in the village.
Please contact me off-list if you're interested.
Cheers
Ruthie
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:19:22 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
Dear Maxou,
I keep meaning to order this book from CTMRA.... it's one of the few that
we don't have.
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:28:14 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
>
> Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
>It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
>one is a local common family name ?
There are four Germains in Cormoz. Given that the village has a population
of 540, some of these people are probably his relatives. Anybody want to go
on a genealogical field trip to eastern France?
Alden
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:55:31 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Denis Joseph Germain retrouvé
Maxou,
Fantastic!!!
Merci mille fois
I already phoned five Germains in Cormoz - no luck at all
I will mail you direct, pictures of the HG and the inscription (taken by
Alden)
Graham
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:56:06 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier
Bonjour,
The expression " ...de campagne " translates by " country-style "
as in " pâté de campagne " , so my guess is that the label means
" home made " by Germain Denis Joseph wich would indicate
an amateur building a single instrument for his own use ?
Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
one is a local common family name ?
Henry
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:22:41 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Denis Joseph Germain retrouvé
Hi !
Later, Germain moved to BEAUPONT, very close to CORMOZ. You can try
there.
Maxou
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:16:16 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] I'm up and running
>I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used. Can
>someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?
Hello Jim,
Several points here:
1. Sounding a G above a D gives an interval of a perfect 4th, which
classical/baroque musical theory considers to be a discord in need of
resolving. Thus having it going continuously as a drone interval is not
normally desirable. That said, to our modern ears it doesn't sound _too_
discordant, but I personally don't really like the sound and neither ,I
suspect, do the Bourbonnais.
2. Playing a G below a D is fine - that's a perfect 5th, which is highly
concordant. Thus G mouche with just the (higher) D trompette is fine and
can sound very pleasant - try it with the Horses Bransle in G for example.
3. Tuning the mouche to A above a D drone is also a perfect 5th and for
tunes in Dmaj or Dmin can sound excellent. Sort of 'bluesy'.
4. Keeping drones to the same note allows more flexibility in the keys you
can play over them - the tonic and dominant in major and minor keys both
work very well. Drones at a 5th limit you to the tonic only. Of course,
brief modulations away from this can be quite acceptable.
HTH
Peter.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:41:59 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Correction
Oops....
"The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony Daly; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK."
should have read:
The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony House; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK.
Sorry Tony for changing your name!!!
Ruthie
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:09:56 +0100
From: cor westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: [HG] bourdon 2002
Hi list,
I know it's a bit late, but anyone who is in or near Holland coming
weekend, should come to "Bourdon 2002"
saturday march 23.
Fot details look at
http://www.antenna.nl/draailier-doedelzak/
go to "berichten" and then to "projecten".
Might see you there,
Cor Westbroek
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:35 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Veille de Germain
Alden & Cali,
Sypathetics added to the Germain
How do you feel about doing this now we have an instrument of known
provenance ?
Assuming you have not yet done the work, my feeling is to wait until I get
more info on some of the other 5
extant examples. If none of them have sypathetics then perhaps we ought not
to mess with it.
Cormoz is not that far from Jenzat.
I got in touch with the Musee de Brou (very close to Cormoz) who have an HG
collection, no reply so far.
La Vielle en Bresse is variously described as a book or sometimes as an
exhibition catalogue (of the musee's vielle collection ?).
I also found 2 editions ?
La Vielle en Bresse 1985, 199p, 120 ill n.b.
La Vielle en Bresse 1994, 126p, 43 ill coul et 200 n.b. co-edition Musee de
Brou - Adam Biro, Paris
I am confused which to get and where to buy from
Thanks for all your help
Graham
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:13:26 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Fête de la vielle !
For all those who live in the East part of the continent
( or have extre air miles left )
The date of the Fête de la Vielle has been fixed for 2002
Hi everyone,
We are having our annual Fete de la Vielle et Cornemuse in Sharon, on
May 11th this year.
Daniel Thonon and Iain Mac Harg will lead the activities.
The event starts at 10 a.m. at the Sharon,Vt Seven Stars Hall in the
center of the village.
This event is for all lovers of Celtic French and Breton traditional
music.
Workshops and informal sessions during the day.
Atttendance fee: full participation $ 20.
Some private tutorial lessons may be available for an extra fee. Contact
the teachers if interested.
No evening concert is planned this year, but rather informal music
sessions among participants.
Lunch on your own.
For more info, please visit
www.prydein.com/vielle
or call us at:
802 763 8812
Want to help? Please tell your music friends about this event. Thank
you.
To register, sign up by calling 802 763 8812, or email us at;
the weepiper _at_ vermontel.net
See you there.
Michael & Gisele Mac Harg
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:33:58 +0700
From: Keiji OTAKE <kei_otake _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Instrument de diable
Hello List
It is known the HG was called "beggar's instrument"in the past.
This name came from the fact that HG was in the hands of beggars.
Also I hear the name of "instrument of devil".
How has the HG got this name?
Can anyone tell me the origin of the name "instrument of devil"?
Thank you in advance
Kei
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:00 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
I thought that was the violin
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:23:29 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Hello,
Keiji OTAKE:
> It is known the HG was called "beggar's instrument"in the past.
> This name came from the fact that HG was in the hands of beggars.
during the centuries of its existence the hurdy gurdy had and has a
number of functions. As The earliest evidence shows it as church music
instrument and to all times since then there seems to be a continuity of
its use as rural dance music instrument. Solo and in small bands: duos,
trios. From time to time it also appears in music at the court like in
france in the 1720ies so more or less 'serious' composers wrote for it.
It also was and is a instrument used for accompanying singing. there is
also a continous use of the instrument by beggars. in this function it
is often succeed by the barrel organ. in this function hurdy gurdy is
used as synonym for barrel organ (same in german: 'Leierkasten' can mean
'Drehleier'/hurdy gurdy and also 'Drehorgel'/barrel organ).
These varuious functions of the hurdy gurdy exist and existed paralell
to and quite independent from each other, tsaking a closer look one may
even say tht it would be better to see the hurdy gurdy as a family of
instruments with relatives in different forms of music.
> Also I hear the name of "instrument of devil".
> How has the HG got this name?
> Can anyone tell me the origin of the name "instrument of devil"?
>
In (christian) fundamentalist religious movements (instrumental-)music
and dance general are often quoted as evil.
One of the hurdy gurdies main function is and was beeing a dance music
instrument. If you look into the records you will find that it is not
the hurdy gurdy in special that was treated as evil but all dance music
(instruments). The hurdy gurdy just was the most typical dance music
instrument and therefore got the status of a symbol.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
---
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:51:45 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Yes, I thought it was the fiddle too. When I finally succumbed to temptation
and bought a fiddle last year (after 30 years of playing fiddle tunes on
everything else) a fiddle-playing bandmate said (in a tone of
congratulation): "The devil's instrument finally got its claws in you!"
Offhand I can think of several reasons for this kind of term. One is that
various branches of Christianity attempted to suppress and destroy anything
to do with music that might lead to dancing; the fiddle is of course guilty
of that, and presumably a hurdy gurdy might also offend.
Fiddle tradition is full of stories of fiddlers who had encounters with the
supernatural, easily leading into stories that they had pacts with the
devil, etc. There's a lovely album of on Northside called "The Devil's Tune"
which is a compilation of Nordic tunes associated with the devil. Not all of
these are fiddle tunes, though I can't recall any hurdy gurdy on it; the
other most implicated instrument in that region appears to be the overtone
flute.
Certain scales and modes are associated in some places with the supernatural
and/or the devil. Presumably any instrument you played these tunes on would
become "the devil's instrument" in some sense. Nyckelharpa lore also has
stories of players in competition with each other as wizards as well as
players. So, not too far from there to the hurdy gurdy, I suppose...but when
I hear "the devil's instrument" I still think: "fiddle."
Of course for those of us who are beginners on such creatures, the learning
process could also inspire such associations.
Beverly
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:05:24 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Off the top of my head and being too lazy to look it up, one of the great
composers dreamed of the devil sitting on the end of his bed playing the
violin. When he woke up he wrote down the music he had heard in the dream
and it became a "hit". His name and the name of the music will come to me in
a moment I'm sure but possibly that is where it got the name of the devil's
instrument and, I suppose, the HG is a "violin like" instrument to the
uninitiated (rosin, strings etc).
Colin Hill
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:10:00 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
I think Simon is probably right in this, but I would point out that
drone instruments, at least in Eastern European traditions, are
especially associated with the devil. In Hungary there are many folk
tales concerning bagpipes (most of them now gone since bagpipes are
not common any more) about possessed bagpipes that play themselves or
witches' sabbaths to which pipers are spirited away to perform for
naked witches, only to receive a pile of horses' hooves as payment,
etc., etc. Given the reputation Hungarian pipers had for drunkenness
I suspect more than one piper who came home in the morning with a
hangover and no notion of where he'd been all night (perhaps asleep
in a ditch) had to cook up a story in a hurry for his wife, so the
pipers themselves may have had something to do with the stories.
Of course that doesn't explain about the HG directly, especially in
Western European tradition, but I have heard of similar tales in
Britain, and some folk instruments in Western Europe are still
decorated with mirrors to ward off the "evil eye" (the flashing
lights from mirrors are supposed to keep it at bay). Given the
similar sound and role played by both HG and pipes in many traditions
I wouldn't be surprised if you see similar associations with the HG
in Western Europe and an intersection between folk traditions about
these drone instruments and the opinion of more austere Christians on
the matter.
Perhaps an additional factor would be the association of HGs with
beggars. In more Calvinist ideas beggars are somewhat ambiguous --
they are a cause for charitable giving, but they are also highly
suspect as being the unelect -- if they were worthy of salvation God
would make his election obvious in them and they wouldn't be beggars.
In Catholic countries beggars would have been better tolerated, but
still associated with crime and the underworld in the popular
imagination.
To an extent you see this still in parts of the U.S. In small towns
and more conservative areas street musicians are often thought of as
beggars here in the U.S., regardless of why they perform or their
actual economic status. They are associated with morally suspect
"Bohemian" lifestyles.
I live in Bloomington, Indiana and have been informed by locals that
street performance is difficult in this town because the police tend
to give street performers a hard time (they cite anti-panhandling
ordinances among other things). I suspect though that in more
cosmopolitan and liberal areas that busking is much less of a problem
and not considered nearly so suspect.
(Just as a note here. I am not using "Conservative" and "Liberal" in
their political senses, but rather as terms for social attitudes
here. Thus one could be politically conservative yet liberal in the
sense I am using the word.)
The funny thing is that many of the same people who dislike street
performers and consider them a suspect bunch here in the U.S. go to
Europe and like them. I suspect though that these are the same people
who think of foreigners in general as morally suspect, so street
musicians fit right in elsewhere.
-Arle Lommel
P.S. In the violin/fiddle as the instrument of the devil category, I
suspect one must include the famous Charlie Daniel's song "The Devil
Went Down to Georgia".
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:53:45 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
--- arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> wrote:
> I think Simon is probably right in this, but I
would
> point out that
> drone instruments, at least in Eastern European
> traditions, are
> especially associated with the devil.
It was the same for Italian LAUNEDDAS (Sardinian
bagpipes ....without the "bag").
The use of silver reeds was forbidden for this reason
and I think it's not a legend!
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:58:39 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: busking
I have worked on busking legality issues in several locations, and I made
most of my living busking, mostly in greater Boston, for years. I have a few
comments on your ideas below.
First, it is unfortunately not true that street performers are respected in
cities like Boston; I had a Boston police sergeant lean over me while I was
playing (with a proper permit, etc.) downtown, and growl: "I wish you and
all your kind were at the bottom of Boston Harbor!" A Cambridge policeman
under similar circumstances opined loudly to another that I was "an obvious
criminal type." (If you haven't met me, feel free to view a picture of me on
the website in my signature and decide for yourself if such an assessment
makes sense.) These attitudes, and a general disrespect for street
musicians, are very common everywhere in the US that I know of.
Regarding your last paragraph, a further irony is that many of the street
musicians that Americans are happy to like when in Europe are actually the
same (American) street musicians they ignore while at home. I have not
busked in Europe, but many of my friends have. I hear from them that the
kind of respect you imagine is more common in Europe than in the US. In the
US, from what I have seen, foreign street performers are often more
respected than local ones. So I'm not sure about your idea about the foreign
issue. Seems as if many Americans think a foreign musician=artist while US
musician=bum.
Beverly
--
Beverly Woods
music website:
http://www.sethausten.com/beverly.html
email: tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:04:04 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Instrument de diable
This phenomeon is also alluded to in Georges Sand's Les Maitre Sonneurs
Nicholas
-----Original Message-----
From: marcello bono [SMTP:lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it]
Sent: 25 March 2002 14:54
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
>It was the same for Italian LAUNEDDAS (Sardinian
>bagpipes ....without the "bag").
>The use of silver reeds was forbidden for this reason
>and I think it's not a legend!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:25:59 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Bonjour,
Actually , in the early form , organistrum and symphonia , it was
used by the catholic church , in later times it became , as you sat
the instrument for beggars , mostly blind ones .
Beggars as well as any travelling trades , have often raised suspicion
but my own theory is that it is either Luther or Calvin who declared all
drone instruments as instruments of the devil .
I am still trying to locate where I read it but just look at a map of
Europe , there are bagpipes ( and some HG ) in France , Italy,
Belgium ( but none in Holland ) , part of Germany , they disapeared
from England after Henry VIII , it more or less follow the religious
practice of the countries. Maybe the conduct of the french court
in the XVIIIth cent . did not help much ? <g>
My 0.02$ ( Canadian : 0.012$ US )
A bientot,
Henry
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:10:26 -0500
From: Eugene <eugenebienvenue _at_ softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: busking
>>the kind of respect you imagine is more common in Europe than in the US
I spent almost ten years busking in Europe. With my now ex-wife, I toured
many of the medieval and renaissance cities of that ancient continent. And
for every city there is at least one story of abuse and mistreatment.
I mean, with original instruments: HG, Lute, recorders, shawm, crumhorns,
cornamuses, percussion- in renaissance costume- it could hardly be assumed
that we were bums and ne'erdowells. But while the majority of people were
tolerant, kind and generous (as I believe they are everywhere), those to
whom the very idea of freedom, or that one might actually survive, or worse,
do well without giving one's soul within a hiearchy of ambitious climbers,
were motivated beyond belief, and abusive beyond any hope of survival.
I lost my love, my calling (busking), my home (at that point a camper-van),
my patrie (Europe). I was raped (stripped searched by police), verbally
abused on a daily basis, and confronted with intolerance that would have
tried the patience of a saint.
We continue to live in a world where the good are persecuted...the
ambivalent are in the majority and the bad are the only ones motivated to
wield power. And while I was happily surprised at the responsiveness and
generosity of the general public, as I finally prepare to rekindle my
career, I expect more of the same, and wonder when the human race will
finally grow up.
Yours,
Eugene
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:16:33 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable & street minstrals
Hello,
Correct, but also there is another side. Some strident, Slavic Christians
love and use drone and the hurdy gurdy,
not just now but historically.
Oh but please do understand me, that I am not arguing. At least I do not
wish
to at all.
People have called drone music a devil's sound in so many words.
but anyone familiar with Byzantine chant knows well that Slavic
(Christian) music is filled with drones. Or I should say, it is based on
droning.
It was and still is. Those churches often had problems (and I disagree with
their feelings) not with drone sound but with instruments in general. but,
with the hurdy-gurdy it still isn't that simple.
I merely think it is appropriate within this topic to say that there are
God-believing people who revere the hurdy gurdy. The only proposition I
guess that I feel a desire to directly correct is the notion that serious
Christians took the view that these drone instruments are of the devil.
A view that I believe to be...well, crazy.
I will also go out on a limb here and suggest that any serious hurdy-gurdy
history enthusiast should be compelled to buy Natalie Kononenko's book
called, "Ukrainian Minstrels...and the blind shall sing."
It is all about hurdy-gurdy players. (information link given below)
~~
One person (keiji began with a question, and then don) mentioned a violin as
being the devil's...
There is a part of the tradition or connotation with the Norwegian,
Hardanger fiddle. The cd "Devil's Tune"
is all Hardanger fiddle--and a really nice CD. I own that.
Beverly has mentioned all this. And as mentioned, that a related instrument
is the Nyckelharpa. What an awesome instrument that is. By the way, possibly
the leading modern
nyckelharpa player in the world has done a duet CD with hurdy gurdy. That
would be something great to own.(I will this year, for sure.)
These instruments have had hypnotic or so called devilish quality. I think
that was all a mistake, to put it very mildly.
~~
There is also that one song in bluegrass music, very well known in America
in may be the 70s, where the devil plays the
fiddle and they duel over who is faster, the human fiddler or the devil.
~~
Perhaps religious history is not the main stay of this list. I don't think
it is at all... I feel distress when I consider not just religious
history, but human history. The hostility in and out of the church seems
incomprehensible to me. Again, put mildly.
Still, I can mention that in some Russian and Ukrainian local churches, the
hurdy-gurdy gained positive and religious recognition. It is reported by the
researcher,
Natalie Kononenko, that many Ukrainian monasteries and Abbeys have
hurdy-gurdys stored
somewhere there inside. Susann Palmer writes (pg 239) that a hurdy-gurdy was
reported to have been
made for the Tsar. There is a CD of a wondrous singer from the Ukraine:
Vasyl' Nechepa. Also, there is a beautifully-done CD from Poland of all solo
singing and hurdy-gurdy playing; called Ukrainska Lira, by Mychajlo Chaj.
The recording is rustic, but the art work is remarkable. All the material is
highly religious or Slavic {eastern European Christian.} Also, the world
preeminent Russian choral chant historian, Anatoly Grindenko of the Russian
Patriarchate Choir, has adding lyra to his music just
a little. All Orthodox music and one of this list's members has seen that
in concert. Also, I have mentioned Natalie Kononenko's book and web site
before--all about peasant, religious hurdy-gurdy players.
http://www.brama.com/art/kobzar.html
Also there is a guild in the Ukraine. Also a lyra player in New York, member
of the experimental bandora trio. Also, a man in Toronto who owns several of
the Ukrainian hurdy-gurdys. All of this is material that I mention is
religious in a positive way. There is also a dazzling CD by the Siren Choir
and the leader, Andrey Kotov, plays the hurdy gurdy.
http://www.sirin.ru/ens.html
Finally, Balazs Nagy of Budapest has a bass tekero, (and I am buying one of
these) on which he has depicted the Hungarian church's history in a carved
art work on his key-box lid.
~~
It is strange how people have taken opposite views on... peasants, beggars,
minstrels, or mendicant musicians. The real devil incarnate against
hurdy-gurdy players in the 20th century Stalin, and the 1939
"congress" of hurdy-gurdy players in the Ukraine--all of which perished.
Some (idiots) have despised street minstrels. But, the stereotypes have been
polarized not just with in the church but outside it, too. That is what I
wish to
show, that it is not solely a church problem. It is a human or societal
problem.
To imagine them as thieves, or rather as noble, wonderful people. Forgive me
please for
showing some emotion at the end of my letter. I have deep feelings in favor
of "lowly"
or street performers. Myself, I believe very strongly in the importance
playing on the street. And, that is very much fundamental to my interest in
the hurdy-gurdy. (I plan to write Bev and her husband directly to show
support.)
I have had my son do it for years--busking. Just write me if anyone wishes
to see my (child) criminal at work in New York City. He was almost arrested
once, and kicked
out of a mall another time, all with all the permission needed ahead of
time.
People who despise street players are... oh well, I better calm down.
I hope you can indulge my time (or your time) in mentioning all of this,
along with my feelings added towards the end.
I am not an expert in anything... just very interested in Slavic history.
And, I support busking.
from,
jim
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:02:50 -0000
From: dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: busking
Oh, busking and societies attitudes to it! a never ending story. In my
younger days, we would often busk in my home town of
Manchester, and the police response was varied, but always with the
same message. One gruff looking cop stood and listened to us for a
while, even tapping his foot to the music. When we finished a set,
he said " Very nice, now ***k off out of it or I'll arrest you all ".
Other times we just got told politely to go, but the irony was that if
you went to the tourist information and picked up a leaflet about the
city centre, it listed as one of the attractions " many buskers and
street performers " Ho hum.
Cheers, Dave
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:08:58 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Hello,
Dance music in most parts of europe until recently (before the
accordeon?) was drone based. In some contexts a relation between the
drone and the supernatural is described but not a general relation
between drone and evil. It is easy to list examples where drone based
music is seen as relation/symbol to god or whatever positive
supernatural belive.
There is certaily no relation between protestant areas and drone based
music. I do not want to go into detail but this is certainly not the
case. The phenomenon is older than the time protestant churches exist
and there is no geographical relation.
Basically everything can be (and somewhen was) target of persecution by
religious fundamentalists. In the sixteenth century the catholic church
was not far from banning any kind of music, even singing from service.
Islamic fundamentalists forbid any kind of music in Afghanistan. Some
fundamentalists ban meat eating or alcohol or nudity or reading books,
laughing, dancing, begging, working, sex, TV. Others make the same
things part of their worship.
So what is the general conclusion: that there is no general conclusion.
Hurdy gurdy or drones or whatsoever are whatever a certain (part of a)
population in a certain periode thinks they are. Please do not
generalize. The context is the most important thing.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:36:17 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Silver reeds ?????
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:31:12 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Hello Simon,
I am ready to go into detail , as it should be rather
easy :
Thue or false : Henry VIII had bagpipes and hurdy gurdies in his
personnal belongnings , he was the last english king to do so , HG
disapeared
from england only to come back in the 19 th cent , played by the "
Savoyards "
The fact that the Scottish bagpipe is the best known around the
world
does not contradict the fact that all but the military bagpipe used by the
Scottish regiments of the British army , were forbidden.
True or false : The Nederlandse speaking people of the Kingdom
of the Lower Countries ( today Holland and Belgium ) were united by
a common language and divided by the reform . Result is that the drone
instruments disapeared from Holland only to survive in Catholic Belgium .
Simple fact : the most well known hurdy gurdy style is the
french
lute back from Jenzat , wich would have probably disapeared if l'abbé
Sornin had not given his own gurdy to Pajot , to make copies of it .
Was the abbé Sornin a devil sympathiser ?
I guess that with the exeption of the harp and bassoon <g> all
music instruments must have been used by the devil at one time or
another , fiddles , flutes , clarinets , drums ,even something as modern
as the saxophone , there are stories and legends at one time or
another for all of them .
Now the case of the Ukrainian Lyrnikis : a big part of their
repertoire was composed of religious hymns , and probably the rest
of it was social satyre , a definite health hazard under Stalin .
My personnal conclusion is that the special status of drone
instruments is closely related to the reform , as well as many
popular misconceptions believed today .
Of the soap box now ,
Henry Boucher
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:48:19 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable
Just a passing comment, but I think it should be borne in mind that the
Christian church's bad reputation concerning music was originally based on
practical concerns. Consider the following info:
"Greek philosophers considered music to have great psychological and even
supernatural powers. The Doctrine of ethos maintained that different types
of music could affect human behavior. For example, music in the Dorian mode
would cause persons to become reasonable and contemplative. Conversely,
music in the Phrygian mode would cause persons to become passionate and
belligerent. Orpheus, one of the great mythic men of Greece, was said to
have the power to move objects and influence the gods with his music. The
sound of a given instrument was also very powerful. For example, the lyre
and the kithara were said to evoke reason and were linked to the worship of
Apollo, the god of reason. Similarly, a double-reed instrument known as the
aulos was said to evoke passion and was linked to the worship of Dionysus,
the god of ecstasy."
Basically, playing music in church was often invoking pagan blasphemy. Of
course, the hurdy-gurdy probably isn't old enough to have ever been
associated with an ancient god, but the whole taboo on drones may have its
origins in Greek superstition.
Today, since those pagan gods have been relegated to fairy tale status and
pose virtually no religious threat, music has mostly returned to the high
status it enjoyed during Old Testament times. As long as it's not involved
in a bacchanalian orgy, playing the HG should be perfectly fine for the
faithful to pursue, unless it becomes more important than God...
Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.
Nathan Roy
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:05:33 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable/ silver reed
> Silver reeds ?????
>
Silver reed here is propably name of a plant, maybe arundo donax?
Sardinian launeddas is, as far as I know anything about it, a mouthful of
reeds. Player puts them between his lips, (or more like in his mouth).
Maybe laun